Awkward Situation

[bluecastle]

The simplest explanation to all this, as others have said, is just: kinda close, except not quite. That's the outcome of many first dates. Heck, this one is a better outcome than others, as documented in a "weird date" thread somewhere on this site, and it seems you've got your own stories on that front—dates that were far more corrosive than this one.

 

All that said, I can't help but see some hangups on your end that might be getting in the way of enjoying a first date for what it is: a first meet with a new person, not quite the time to pull out the red pen and check list. Is he a Peter Pan? A closet gambling addict? A mooch? A selfish lover? A man who suffers crippling insecurity in the orbit of a successful woman? As lame as the last dude? Valid concerns, but none of those questions will get answered on a first date. So if they're dominant in our brains—put there by life, by past dating experiences gone sideways—it's best to leave them on the side table when we grab the keys to meet for the walk around the reservoir.

 

Did this happen here? Who knows? Again, just seems like close, not quite, as when things are "closer" the moments that turn one person away are the moments that make another more curious, even comfortable. My now-girlfriend and I joke about something she uttered on the second date that, in a vacuum or to a man who is not me, could sound like pure man repellent. I found it charming, intriguing, not even the faintest scratch on the record. That's the part of it all that is pure dice roll and the reality that rolling matching sixes is rare.

 

So I'm responding less to the play-by-play than a kind of tone I'm picking up on here: certain conceptions of men that are more negative than positive. Keeping your career secret, for instance, to protect fragile male egos and stave off opportunists? Can't say I understand that. I'm around your age, want something similar to you, certainly have no interest in a woman drawn to me for status or help paying off credit debt amassed by that sweet tooth for handbags. But I don't create a maze for women to walk through to "test" their intentions or life station. If their motivations are suspect or their approach to living incompatible with my own, I trust that I can determine that, in time, while enjoying some walks and sushi as time passes, assuming we even have the juju to go from a walk to sushi.

 

It's sort of like what Batya said. It's pretty easy to take "woman, 43, single" and write a story of sadness, baggage, bitterness. If your male counterparts are diagnosed with Peter Pan Syndrome, then you can be diagnosed with, I don't know, Damsel Syndrome or Ice Queen Syndrome. To which I'd say that any man who has a hair-trigger to make such assumptions about a female peer is simply a man not worth your time, because his own baggage has fogged his lens (and heart) to the point where he's lost the ability to see human women as fellow human people. The flip side to that, of course, is that I'd advise any man, as I've advised myself, to not have to prove his worth to someone who thinks he's a red flag because of how the basic outline of his personhood, gender, and life station compares to a rightward swipe gone wrong 3 months prior.

 

When I was dating, for what it's worth, I made my intentions clear in a sentence: "I'm looking for a partner." If that was met with "So am I"—which it wasn't always—I let the subject go, moving onto what was more important under the early circumstances: books read, places been, dreams dreamed of, salmon roll or yellowtail. I found a lot of information rose to the surface pretty quickly, and most of the time that information took partnership off the table—for me, for the person across from me. So it goes. Humans can mean a lot of things by "So am I!", including "Just kidding!" Ugh—never fun, that one.

 

Best thing about being less young than we once were? Should there be a glaring incompatibility—financial, spiritual, physical, whatever—it will be revealed soon enough, and we now make enough money to afford the ice cream, red wine, and massages that do wonders for softening that disappointment. Knowing that arsenal was in my back pocket if things got dicey always made the walk into the weirdness more manageable.

 

Sorry about all this. It's tough out there, but wouldn't be interesting if it was any other way.

[Batya33]

"It's sort of like what Batya said. It's pretty easy to take "woman, 43, single" and write a story of sadness, baggage, bitterness. If your male counterparts are diagnosed with Peter Pan Syndrome, then you can be diagnosed with, I don't know, Damsel Syndrome or Ice Queen Syndrome. To which I'd say that any man who has a hair-trigger to make such assumptions about a female peer is simply a man not worth your time, because his own baggage has fogged his lens (and heart) to the point where he's lost the ability to see human women as fellow human people. The flip side to that, of course, is that I'd advise any man, as I've advised myself, to not have to prove his worth to someone who thinks he's a red flag because of how the basic outline of his personhood, gender, and life station compares to a rightward swipe gone wrong 3 months prior."

 

My point was she thought he seemed "pretty put together" until she heard about his credit card debt. That's really enough to mean that he's not pretty put together?

[bluecastle]

My point was she thought he seemed "pretty put together" until she heard about his credit card debt. That's really enough to mean that he's not pretty put together?

 

Gotcha. I thought you meant making big assumptions off little information. Maybe we're saying shades of the same thing? If I took your words out of context, I do apologize.

[Batya33]

Gotcha. I thought you meant making big assumptions off little information. Maybe we're saying shades of the same thing? If I took your words out of context, I do apologize.

 

No apologies needed. I found her standard alarming -that apparently if someone has credit card debt they're not "pretty put together"- I don't feel particularly sensitive because I've always been financially stable or better than - but I dated men who were temporarily unemployed or with a lower salary than mine and I didn't judge them (even internally).

[Rose Mosse]

I appreciate everyone’s comments and input. I do want to explain a few things a bit further though. In the past when I was dating online I kept my career private and if asked I would be vague and not say what I actually do for a living. This way men are unaware and therefore not intimidated and it protects me as well from potential opportunists. Of course I’d things progressed I would eventually disclose more information. But in this case this man works in the same industry as me at the same workplace and knows exactly what I do and what my job title is. In fact if we worked in the same department I would be considered a shift supervisor over him. As for the interviewing my date comments, I have been on many dates myself where i literally told my friends later I felt like I was on an interview. I do agree first dates should be more fun and relaxed but in this case this man knows a lot about me already and really the financial stuff was less than a five minute conversation. We discussed many topics and some were light hearted and funny. On a deeper note he even brought up having children and how his parents pressure him to have kids. I wondered if my comments about being unsure i could have kids at my age Also was a turn off for him (meaning he’s would need to pursue much younger women). I really only mentioned the financial stuff bc I wondered if it had made him feel bad and if I had screwed up by making the few comments I made. I do regret saying anything as everyone here seems to agree that might have been what alienated him or made him feel inadequate. Interestingly enough I did not mention in my initial post that I found out he lives with his parents so I really wonder how bad his situation is or if living with them is more of a comfortable situation aka the Peter Pan syndrome. I found that to be more of a yellow flag than his hourly pay or yearly income TBH. These indeed are big topics but if they are deal breakers then why not discuss? Truly, his yearly income isn’t a deal breaker for me, as long as he wouldn’t mooch off me and would take care of his own expenses then why would I care as long as he has a good heart. I guess I assumed because I had asked him out and was aware of the financial differences that would be a ding ding to him that I honestly don’t care about money, that I only want to live comfortably and be able to retire in good shape. Interestingly enough during conversation he mentioned being put off on prior dates when his date didn’t offer to split the bill. When we got our drinks he ironically paid even though I had promised to treat him, but at dinner I thought it best to split the check especially since I was the one who initiated the date (even though dinner had been his suggestion). Because the job title differences and financial issues have been brought up by a few of my friends as a potential blow to his ego is why I mentioned it in my post. It seems like everyone really hung on to my comments about it and I’m not offended but I just wanted to clarify how things went down on the date. It was not an 8 hour date of me grilling him or prying into delicate topics or interviewing him about his bank account. And my hookup comment is a pretty standard line I tell men now as I’ve had too many men try early on to use me for sex. In his case I truly believe he is not that type of guy as he was always super sweet and sincere during our interactions in the past, bit as default I did want to mention it so he was aware i am seeking a relationship and not just a fun time.

 

That all being said, I agree with you all that leaving him alone is for the best. Clearly if someone isn’t interested continuing to text or message is annoying to the other person. I am glad I had limited my post date texts to only a few times as I don’t want to look like a clingy needy stalker either.

 

Truly I am disappointed at the loss of his friendship and I just don’t know how to handle that. I feel like I’ve made him feel

Uncomfortable or awkward where he essentially avoids the entire four walls where I am during work hours. I agree with the person who said it is unfortunate people can’t be more upfront and stop avoiding. I am in no way perfect but after a few ghosting instances I learned that most people deserve an explanation and not to be left hanging especially when you know they are still Interested in you after 1 or more dates and you don’t feel the same. I learned it’s not that hard to send a text message after 1-2 dates saying “hey it was great meeting you but I didn’t feel a connection. I think you are a great (or fun or any other adjective) person good luck in your search.” Some people say you don’t owe another person an explanation after one date but it really depends on the scenario—if it’s mutual meh for both parties and neither reaches out to other post date then there’s no explanation needed. I think this guy knows I am still interested and thinks if he poofs into thin air I’ll get the message (which worked, I guess!)

 

I didn't have any issue with your comments about his credit or financial situation. Maybe you skimmed my comment as it was shorter than most or probably the only one that wasn't bothered by your discussion. A first date usually lasts an hour or two and it's not unusual for any number of topics to come up. At some level it has to be kept organic and free-flowing, not an artificially structured interview complete with repetitive dialogue. From your account of it it sounds free-flowing and quite natural.

 

If you ask me, according to all you've learned about him, this person is just not for you. You actually didn't sound like great friends in the first place so I'm still not certain why you're lamenting the lack of his presence and his cognitive or intellectual capabilities seem very limited. Have you met each others' families (family friends)? Did you spend time together outside of work? Did you go out for lunches and laugh a lot or spend time on the phone together before this date? Do you usually seek company that is so mismatched with you? I absolutely cannot see what intrigue this person has over you at all or what the hang up is over this "friendship".

 

I have nothing to say about what he is, what he does, who he is, what his financial situation is like. You should know enough to know: not appropriate/does not match. This person is not a good match for you.

 

To be brief, I'm going to suggest you start meeting individuals who are more on par with you professionally and intellectually. Try local community groups, meetup.com, upgrade your skills professionally or take a non-credit course (continuing ed.). You're a little too wrapped up by your work status and afraid of intimidating others. What you should be doing is spending more time improving yourself and not capping your limits or being afraid of stepping on others' toes or worried that 99% of the population won't understand you. It's a waste of time and life. Get out there and start reaching for higher, learn more, get to know others, be more of yourself.

[bluecastle]

No apologies needed. I found her standard alarming -that apparently if someone has credit card debt they're not "pretty put together"- I don't feel particularly sensitive because I've always been financially stable or better than - but I dated men who were temporarily unemployed or with a lower salary than mine and I didn't judge them (even internally).

 

I'm with you. There are some hangups about money and professional stats here that could maybe be explored.

[waffle]

I'm with you. There are some hangups about money and professional stats here that could maybe be explored.

 

Because those are real issues and they matter.

[bluecastle]

Because those are real issues and they matter.

 

In terms of in life? In our heads? How do you mean, exactly? I agree with your statement, just curious to hear more.

[itsallgrand]

Maybe I'm way off here, but I get the impression reading your first post that asking a man on a date is something you haven't done very often and so aren't very familiar with.

I got this impression because you called asking him out a courageous act. And then later, when he was not showing interest in a second date, you mention how you thought he'd be flattered as you are * insert good qualities here*.

 

Your ego is stinging, I get that. His choice to not want to pursue more dates doesn't take away from your good qualities though. It's just the nature of things, not everyone you ask out is going to want to keep seeing you.

 

Think of it this way. You wanted to get him a bit better, so you asked him out. That's all. Now you know.

I think comments that your friends have made about him being under your league and him being intimidated by you arent helpful. There's no need to try and put him one down to explain why it's a not a match. It's just not a match!

 

I do think you may have come off rather aggressive. You asked him on a date, then tell him what you don't want. That's a bit of the equivalent to me of those dating profiles that state in bold NO DRAMA. Of course those looking for drama, or loans or to screw you over, aren't going to tell you " oh well in that case, I'm looking for a woman to fund me, I guess I'll pass ". If you are leading with the negative,

you more likely will just repel those who aren't looking for that and attract those who do. The only way to really know a person's character is good is to get to know them, give the chance to show you in a regular way.

 

I'm all over with this post, hopefully it's of some use to you.

[waffle]

In terms of in life? In our heads? How do you mean, exactly? I agree with your statement, just curious to hear more.

 

In terms of compatibility. Our social construct is such that, in general, men tend to be attracted to women further down the socioeconomic ladder than they are, and women tend to be attracted to men higher on the socioeconomic ladder. Thus some men are threatened by a woman who is independent and a higher-earner. Hard to say if that’s what happened in this case but it sounds like it has happened enough to the OP that she is a bit sensitive to it.

 

As far as the existence of credit card debt indicating someone not being “put together” or whatever the phrase was, it is also a fact that debt equals financial irresponsibility in some eyes, including banks and credit bureaus. I think we tend to want someone, in a dating experience or a potential relationship, who is in a similar situation in life as we ourselves are and if we are financially responsible I don’t think it’s unrealistic to want someone who is as well. It doesn't necessarily mean she has "hangups".

[Batya33]

In terms of compatibility. Our social construct is such that, in general, men tend to be attracted to women further down the socioeconomic ladder than they are, and women tend to be attracted to men higher on the socioeconomic ladder. Thus some men are threatened by a woman who is independent and a higher-earner. Hard to say if that’s what happened in this case but it sounds like it has happened enough to the OP that she is a bit sensitive to it.

 

As far as the existence of credit card debt indicating someone not being “put together” or whatever the phrase was, it is also a fact that debt equals financial irresponsibility in some eyes, including banks and credit bureaus. I think we tend to want someone, in a dating experience or a potential relationship, who is in a similar situation in life as we ourselves are and if we are financially responsible I don’t think it’s unrealistic to want someone who is as well. It doesn't necessarily mean she has "hangups".

 

I agree that if someone constantly has credit card debt sure that likely demonstrates financial irresponsibility but she jumped to that conclusion and then he explained it was a failed wedding he'd paid for (which I understood although I personally find it somewhat irresponsible to go into debt for a wedding reception or any large party). So I would want to know more about the debt, how long, what he was doing about it. I agree with your generalizations.

[Lambert]

Well, here's my two cents. I think you might choose to look at this from a different perspective. What did you learn and what can you do differently in the future on other dates. I think when we meet someone that we think might be neat, we assume a lot of things. Especially, if you work in the same field. We tend to think people with similar career interests have other things we share. And that may very well be true. But just like all the things-- there is always the exception to the rule.

 

I have found, that when just dating casually, try not to make mass negative generalizations like, I need a financially stable guy. What you exactly mean by that, is a little unclear. The man could be thinking, "I live paycheck to paycheck" and you don't know enough about him to actually know how he will take what you are saying. And that could be a red flag to him. There is nothing wrong with knowing what you want. But outlining it like that, you might be excluding your crush and you don't even know it!

 

It's hard dating in middle age. When we are young, we are all kinda the same-- working hard and broke. But as we get older we experience things with varying level of success. And you just don't know who is living the life on facebook but secretly up to their eyeballs in debt or whatever. It's understandable, that you don't want to be a nurse or a purse, as someone cleverly said. However, don't loan money to men you date and you won't be. It doesn't matter how much money you have whether you flaunt it or hide it, if you set rules for yourself that you won't be taken advantage of and use some common sense like, "never a lender or borrower be" then you should be fine. You don't have to tell men the horrors you have experienced with other men. haha. Let's face it, anyone over 25 and single, probably has some good stories and lessons to share.

 

Try to keep conversations more neutral on first dates, favorite foods, bands, movies, travels, books, actors, or places you would like to go etc. Hobbies, interests, pets. Save deep thoughts, traumatic experiences, strong opinions for when you actually know the person. If you hear a crazy experience or a strong opinion from someone you don't really know, of course it's going to strike you as extreme.... you don't know the person. That's why the old saying never speak of religion or politics exists. Once someone knows you, they can understand what you are saying and how you mean it. Until then-- zip your lip and stay pleasant and neutral.

 

Lastly, don't fret over losing a friend... You didn't lose a friend. He is a co-worker or a distant co-worker. It's a little awkward now, but it might not always be. Give it time and space. Two examples I have to share:

 

1. I dated a guy at work years ago. Actually, I dated a few guys from work over the years. But this particular one, we had a bad date. And it was awkward as heck! He worked on his side and I worked on mine... kept our distance, didn't really say anything to each other at work happy hours or luncheons etc. He was there. I was there. But there were a lot of other people in the office and it just kinda morphed into being around any of the other people that I didn't really have any kind of friendship etc with. Then one day, we had to start working together. To both our credits, we kept it all work. but his desk was behind mine. UGH!! That close proximity ultimately, made us friends again. And one day, we laughed and said we both felt pretty stupid, but in hindsight it wasn't a big deal.

 

2. I went out with a guy that lives by me. We met because he jogs passed my house every day..... hahaha. At the end of the date, he gave me some weird speech about how if I wanted to go out again to tell him because he doesn't want any trouble from a psycho in his neighborhood. I did not know how to take that, so I just was like haahaa ok and deleted his number from my phone. I sometimes run into him, in the neighborhood. The first time, I just acted my normal self-- smiled and said "Hi Steve, nice to see you" and I kept walking.

 

My point is-- keep it cool. Not everything has to be a dramatic and discussed at length. Time and space helps. Let him be at work and when he talks to you, be cool. You never know.