This site is gold dust!

[Ravenshead]

Dear all,

 

Firstly, thank you to all members of this site. I have little doubt that like countless others, I have followed members’ advice from the sidelines for many months without actually registering as a member myself.

 

I have joined in the hope that my circumstances and how I have dealt with them, thanks to the members of this site, may be of help to others.

 

Obviously in the first instance, I feel it apt to post my own situation. And as a newbie, please feel free to kick me into touch if I have deviated from protocol or at any stage overstepped the mark in terms of experience / communicated circumstances etc.

 

My situation is what I have coined the ‘Full Monty’:

 

• I am a male (early 40s) at the end of a 25-year relationship (married 13 years to a female in very late 40s)

• 1 wonderful child – almost 11-years old

• 2 years’ of marital difficulties (textbook – drifting apart, falling out of love, arguing etc. – I know it sounds trite but it does happen with relationships of such longevity!)

• March 2018, wife goes on dirty 60 (as opposed to dirty 30). 60 days of enhanced attention to personal grooming, second mobile phone, going out without any information about who with, where, when and / or return time. I looked after daughter and…let wife do what she felt she wanted to do.

• I leave marital home (yes, I know!) in May 2018 to give everyone some thinking time and to begin to attempt to correct the faults she highlighted in my behavior – and, if I’m honest, to force her to spend some time with our daughter.

• I thought she would use the time to do something similar, but she didn’t. She did the exact opposite and engaged in an affair with her friend. They had become closer following the death of a mutual friend late 2017.

• Acting against respect for my self I suggested reconciliation (via all the typical faults of a betrayed spouse) naturally to no avail.

• Went through the ‘process’ with the aid of LC and a 180. I am mentally and emotionally VERY strong, but I can assure you that the whole thing took me down, in a big way, yes, right to the lowest place…the dark night of the soul. But, with extensive help from the members’ posts of this site I pulled through to the stage of indifference in just over 6 months (and have remained steady for the last 2).

• Currently finalising financial and childcare arrangements.

• Cannot thank you all enough and hope I can make a positive contribution.

• I can add further details if necessary but ultimately want to help in any way I can.

 

Kind regards,

 

Ravenshead.

[ThatwasThen]

Welcome to the forum, Ravenshead. Glad what you've read in the forum has helped you to come to terms with your situation.

[RideOrDie]

Best of luck on your journey :)

[figureitout23]

And your question is.....

[Hollyj]

So sorry.

 

How is your daughter?

[reinventmyself]

Welcome

I hope we can be of some support during this time.

 

In the meantime, hang in there. You sound like you have both feet on the ground.

[bluecastle]

Hello!

 

I certainly know that healing power of hovering at the edges of this site—glad it's helped you. Here's hoping we can offer more support, whenever needed, and lean on you when we're in the spins.

 

One thing you said kind of struck a chord with me, so take this for what it is. The bit about being STRONG, about reaching indifference in six months—I hear you, and I feel you. I too am a pretty type-A personality, eager to check off the boxes of healing.

 

But a friend gave me some great advice a year ago when I was going through a breakup. She asked how I was doing. I said something like, "Great! I've really turned a corner over the past two weeks!" To which she said, "That's great and all, but you know what? You'll have really turned a corner when you stop trying to turn corners."

 

I'm not sure I even knew what she meant at the time, but something in that stuck, and served as a little guide. The way it resonates with me now is to constantly remind myself that I am always more fragile than I know. Yeah, I'm long past the stage of weeping on street corners—that's deep(ish) in the past. But I like to remember that I'm fragile, that there's always more fragility to discover, and to celebrate, because there's a lot of strength in that too, if that makes sense.

 

Anyhow, just a little something to take or leave, as you see fit.

[Ravenshead]

Dear all,

 

Many thanks for your welcoming words.

 

Figureitout23, this is what I meant by protocol etc. so apologies for not beginning with a specific question. I do have questions, but wanted to begin with an initial intro as I’ve found that first posts, once picked apart by you guys, often reveal a number of things initially overlooked by the author.

 

Bluecastle, your reply immediately highlights such things. I have had a tendency of ‘checking off’ the stages of recovery as and when I have perceived them happening from my own perspective (males are logic-centric, often to our detriment), but am also cautious (in the longer term) that I could be jumping the gun due to the length of the relationship. I’m also aware that emotions tend to be cyclical but can also catch you off guard.

 

With these things in mind, the first thing I’d like to ask relates to upcoming potential trigger points that include daughter’s birthday (she’s doing fine, thank you, Holly, although she appears to be going through a version of the ‘process’ herself). Other dates include Halloween, Christmas and New Year, all of which we have historically made big efforts towards as a family unit.

 

How have you all dealt with these things first time round?

 

My application of LC and 180 took the position that if someone decided that they didn’t want me in their life any more, then my decision to remove myself from the equation and begin working on what I needed to work on would, as a byproduct, result in WS experiencing what life would be like without me involved. Obviously I can’t apply any such thing to my daughter, as none of this is her fault whatsoever, but she is inevitably affected by it.

 

Do I suggest split times on special occasions, or something else? What has worked best in your experiences? I no longer have an issue being in the same room as my STBEXW, but am still conscious of the importance of maintaining the essenses of LC.

 

Many thanks.

[figureitout23]

Hey Raven,

 

So my take based on your reply to me and subsequent question is you’re trying to be strategic. You either haven’t truly reached indifference and you’re in denial or you’re an over thinker on steroids. LC, NC all those are tactics to get to indifference, once you’re there and you have kids they’re useless actions that get in the way of coparenting.

 

I guess you can technically define what I have with my ex husband as LC because unless it’s dealing with coparenting we truly have no reason to talk. But if he calls he out of the blue with a question, I’m not thinking to myself, I CANT ANSWER THAT! IM LC!!!! I’ve been through therapy, I’ve forgiven him, still working on fully forgiving myself, but for the most part I’m ok. I don’t love him anymore so his presence doesn’t bother me, Im LC because post divorce, I don’t concider him a friend. To me that’s not strategic/ conscious LC, thats indifference.

 

My point in saying all this is youre complicating things and I’m not sure the true reason. If it’s all strategy to get her back or to ‘win’ the divorce please stop! The only person who will suffer is your child.

 

Seperation of holidays is something decided either by the both of you or the courts. Since you two have financial and childcare figured out I’m not sure why something as important as holidays wasn’t hashed out as well, they’re right around the corner, either way it wasn’t done and now it needs to be. Since you’re trying to stay LC a basic email (documentation) will suffice.

 

Good luck and always remain honest with yourself and keep your child first, everything else will fall into place, I never believed that before but if you allow it, it actually does! You’re going to be ok raven.

[RayRay63]

Be the best father you can, first priority - and don't let the break up mechanics get in the way of that. Civil, logical, specific communications. No talk of breakup or reconciliation.

 

Do the best you can for yourself, second priority. This means take the time when you are not looking out for your child to work on yourself, your goals.

 

Your ex is not a priority at any level. She has chosen a path without you in it.

 

Give her what she wants.

[SherrySher]

Welcome Raven and thank you so much for your kind words. It's so nice of you to let us know.

 

I am sorry you're going through hardships right now. If you have already asked your wife to try and fix things and she does not want to, I think the only thing you can do is accept that it's over.

I know, not an easy thing to do.

 

Put your focus on your child, they are who needs to most love and support right now with things changing like this.

Also, if you're having a hard time coming to term with things, consider personal counselling.

 

This will be a rough patch for a while but it won't last forever. Stay strong.

[Ravenshead]

Dear all,

 

Once again thank you for the responses. Figureitout23, I’m confident, (diplomatic understatement) that there’s no strategy involved as a ploy to get her back nor any wish to win anything. My understanding is that there are no winners in divorce. Hoidays are 50/50 split. The reason I asked related to instances where special occasions didn't fall into either party's allotted days. Email drafted now, so thanks for that.

 

I would also like to thank you again for your insight into two areas in particular:

1. ‘Over-thinker on steroids?’ Correct, minus the steroids. This is one of the areas I’ve been focusing on in terms of self-improvement. My job requires a lot of thinking and analyses; but sometimes these things needs toning down. The actual breakdown of the relationship has changed the importance I place in many areas into perspective, and I have come to learn that our minds are often the greatest writers of fiction in history if we allow them to become so. But yes, it’s something I need to continue to work on.

2. The nature of LC and when it has done its job. I initially implemented it to help me focus on getting through the separation process, but am also mindful of its potential impact on any children involved. I agree with you that continuing it beyond its natural conclusion will complicate things. I have, like you, told my ex that I have no wish to be her friend, but being ‘friendly’ or ‘civil’, as RayRay put it, needn’t imply friendship. It’s almost as if I’ve become comfortable with some aspects of LC as they seem to have produced boundaries as a side product, some of which I would find difficult to switch off overnight. Perhaps there should be other strategies developed along the lines of SC (Sensible Contact) or PC (Pragmatic Contact)? Either way your insights have helped me yet again and I remain focused on my daughter and self-improvement. Thank you.

[figureitout23]

Sensible contact and pragmatic contact, I freakin love that!

[bluecastle]

Buddy, you sound like you're doing a great job processing what is no doubt a heavy load.

 

I can't really advise you on the specifics of kids, as I have none, but I will say this. I come from a dramatically broken home, with a father who checks off just about every box of horror in book: drugs, debt, infidelity—you name it. Needless to say, being married to him extracted a big toll on my mother, as did leaving him.

 

But one of the things I love so much about my mother is that she never really showed me her angst—that was hers, while my my father, alas, was still the only dad I have. He's a limited dude—I'm now nearly 40, so I've had time to form my own ideas about him—but I was always allowed to get to know him on my own terms, with my mother's love and support. She was always civil and friendly around him, and that model of maturity remains a standard I try to live up to, in general, to this day.

 

As for the expediting to the indifference stage, just make sure you give yourself time to feel all the feelings. Like, it's totally cool if, an hour after reading this, you need to weep and/or hate your ex-wife for an hour. Weep and hate her—that's not some regression, not a sign of weakness, but a progression, even a sign of strength. It's a reminder that you're an awesome, complicated human, and it's feeling all those feelings that will help guide you as you assess your priorities etc. moving forward.

 

Best of luck. You've got some good, tough stuff in that soul.

[Ravenshead]

Hi All,

 

Could I ask for some advice, please?

 

I was with my daughter this evening and she mentioned that her mum and her AP had been arguing. She brought this up herself, which surprised me as I’ve made a point of not asking anything about her mum and her ‘friend’ when she is with me.

 

She said that he had been saying that she and her mum were always whining and that they had an argument about something she didn’t understand and that her mum hadn’t spoken to him since.

 

I asked my daughter if she was OK with everything, to which she replied, yes. I said to her that so long as she is happy; then I’m happy.

 

Should I mention the conversation to my Ex? I’m inclined to keep silent, as my daughter seems OK with things. However, I find it somewhat ironic that one of our issues towards the end of the marriage was the unhealthiness of arguing in front of the children.

 

Thanks in advance of any advice.

[reinventmyself]

I asked my daughter if she was OK with everything, to which she replied, yes. I said to her that so long as she is happy; then I’m happy.

.

 

As you already are aware, you can't protect her from these things but you can (and did) provide her a safe place to talk. I noticed with my sons the moment I became parental about things when they were confiding in me, the walls went up. So I learned early on the value of listening and letting them know they've been heard and understood. Talking to her mom would be seen as breaking her confidence and could backfire

 

I do want to touch on your response though. I might be wrong but when you told her `if she's happy, you're happy' she could have heard that as request to keep everyone happy, most of all you.

 

After all kids don't want their parents unhappy, so I might be concerned that she wouldn't share something with you that was upsetting to her - just to spare your feelings.

 

Just a thought. . .

 

Should you mention it to your ex? No, not in this case. It appears to have resolved itself. Unless you daughter is effected by it and is causing her any discomfort, I wouldn't say anything.

Unless it's something serious, just provide her a safe place to talk.

 

came back to add. . at times I gave my sons respectful advise that they could use to navigate the situation better with their Dad. My ultimate goal was that they have good relationships with both their parents, but there were times that they needed help with the right wording that their Dad might hear. It was never an attempt to undermine their relationship but just a little support here and there that hopefully made it better.

[Ravenshead]

Reinventmyself,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

You are so on the ball!

 

One thing I have not mentioned about my daughter is her tendency to want to please everyone, which is why I have made the point of not mentioning her mum when she’s with me.

 

My concern is that she wouldn’t confide if there was a serious issue due to this tendency, which I hope you appreciate makes anything that she brings up of her own accord all the more poignant. I made it clear from the start that I didn’t have an issue with her mum’s ultimate decision, so long as my daughter was happy. The issue I had was the way in which her mum decided to execute the decision.

 

My ex made the decision that she wanted to make a go of things with someone else. I said that if this was her desire, to not f**k it up, and actually make a real go of it. I would be bitterly disappointed if my daughter’s family unit was sacrificed for the sake of an 8-month fling.

[RayRay63]

I was with my daughter this evening and she mentioned that her mum and her AP had been arguing... he had been saying that she and her mum were always whining...

 

A variation on this is when child tells parent A that parent B and new partner had an argument about money... and credit cards were chopped up, or whatever.

 

There is always a possibility they do this to make parent A feel better.

 

You need to be careful because any communication on this will possibly make things difficult for the child, so at this point I agree with reinvent - no I wouldn't contact the mother about it.

 

he had been saying that she and her mum were always whining...

 

There was also an element in there that it was "us" against "him" in there.

 

On the other hand if something more serious is reported that is affecting your child's welfare then you must consider doing something.

 

I have an unrelated suggestion - using the power of language to help your healing process.

 

Do not identify her, in writing here, in conversation, or in your own thoughts, as "my ex". Re-label her "the mother".

[Ravenshead]

RayRay, agreed, and noted!

[reinventmyself]

My divorce is in my rear view mirror and my sons are now young adults, so I've had some practice.

 

Along with just allowing them to talk, I learned to be very careful when having any sort of reaction. If I was having a uncomfortable physical reaction to what they were telling me, they'd immediately stop. So, I learned to develop quite a poker face and noticed the more I sat still the more they talked. I probably knew much more about their Dad and their goings on than I ever should have because of this.

 

If I had an issue that I needed to address I would do it at a later time. Maybe the following day I would bring it up in thoughtful way. "you know I was thinking about what you said last night and . . etc" Responding in the moment rarely worked and often backfired. Besides, it gave me the time to come up with careful response

 

On the other hand I know my ex to quite volatile and reactionary. I think it's pretty safe to say he knows very little about me from our sons due to his overreactions.

 

Just a little tip from the trenches.

Hang in there. You doing a great job!

[Ravenshead]

Thanks, Reinventmyself,

 

I’m sure you appreciate that my issue is that my daughter is still at an impressionable age and I assure you that my poker face is well versed. We have a strong bond, and irrespective of the distain I originally had towards her mum, I want my daughter to maintain a healthy relationship with both of us.

 

Did everything work out OK in the end for all involved in your case? My daughter is currently 10.

[reinventmyself]

My sons were 9 and 13. Today 28 and 33. How did that happen?!

 

They are wonderful and doing well. Really well matter of fact. My youngest just married two weeks ago and works for the county, finishing his degree in environmental engineering. His new wife is teacher and working towards her masters. My oldest is fireman and currently surfing in Panama?!

 

I was sure we screwed them up for life, but who would have thought they would turn out so well? Lol. I can laugh now, but it wasn't always this way.

 

I am not going to lie and say it was easy. In a weird, sad way divorce parents and broken families are the relative norm now.

 

I just did the best I could with what I had and took the high road at every opportunity. Their Dad bumbled along the way, but they have a good relationship with him too.

 

There is always this lingering disappointment that never goes away. I think we all just learn to live with it rather than deny it. I went through personal therapy after marriage counseling (failed) and stayed with it for some time. The support I received about how to handle the boys as invaluable.

 

I know exactly how you are feeling. The guilt over the harm we think we've caused them is too much to bare at times. But just trust that she'll be ok. Teach her to be resilient and don't ever underestimate the relationship between a father and his daughter.

 

There's saying "Treat her like a princess and she'll marry a prince"

[Ravenshead]

Reinventmyself,

 

Thank you for this. It induces much solace, as does your articulation. For me, as a male, there still seems to be a distant internal battle between the innate, primitive instinct to react, and the reservedness of common sense, which is why I have turned to those who have significantly more experience in such matters.

[reinventmyself]

At the same time I watched my friends, also going through divorces and dragging each other from court to court, doing and saying terrible things with the kids in the middle. It was pretty tragic and the kids suffered unnecessarily.

 

I learned by example - what not to do.

 

I still hear my therapist "if you love your sons and want what's best for them, what's best for them is that the have good relationship with both you and their father. He can be successful at it or screw it up all on his own, without any help from you"

 

I was also told that it just takes one really good parent for a child to turn out ok.

 

From that moment on, I knew my place and stuck to it.