From Wow to more Wow? My "I just knew" journal of wonder.

[chickadeedee]

I also have one comment that may make you uncomfortable but i feel the need to say it: You say he lived 'separate lives' with his wife for years and started an affair with someone else during his marriage. Maybe he is someone who deep down prefers separate lives. Likes having one or two women in his life and has trouble letting go, but doesn't like feeling 'trapped' either.

 

So he sets up these scenarios where he doesn't let go of the last one until he has another firmly in hand, then balks and loosens the grip and starts again. He's gone from wife to other woman/business partner to you to who knows whom, repeating this pattern.

[mhowe]

I hear you. Part of our balked reconciliation 2 yrs ago was due to his unprocessed dealing with the death of his mother 2 yrs previous to that. When he witnessed my grieving for my mother he realized, for the first true time...the utter disconnect he had with his mother in life, let alone death. The juxtaposition of my grief vs his lack of grief left him feeling... Less.

 

Any who...I think that in order for your Him to clean house...you both do need to clear out of each others lives. This back burner safety net has taken the goal off the table. The goal is to get healthy and authentic, once and for all. And it will take concerted effort which will not happen if he knows that you are never going away.

 

And if you go away and he doesn't so everything in his power to fix his life...well, he was never going to do it anyway.

[chickadeedee]

^^

I agree 100%. You need to go away. Don't be his safety net. Don't let him come around or communicate with you at all until (and only if) he says he is is ready to have a real and substantial and NORMAL couples relationship with you.

 

Otherwise, you don't talk or interact with him at all. Go about your business. Date other men. Don't talk to him about that or anything else. The door is closed until he is offering you what you want and need from him.

[IAmFCA]

I also have one comment that may make you uncomfortable but i feel the need to say it: You say he lived 'separate lives' with his wife for years and started an affair with someone else during his marriage. Maybe he is someone who deep down prefers separate lives. Likes having one or two women in his life and has trouble letting go, but doesn't like feeling 'trapped' either.

 

So he sets up these scenarios where he doesn't let go of the last one until he has another firmly in hand, then balks and loosens the grip and starts again. He's gone from wife to other woman/business partner to you to who knows whom, repeating this pattern.

 

On this point I drilled pretty hard and repeatedly, and I got back something different than I expected, consistent responses though I kept drilling to get a distant outcome.

 

During 8 of the 10 years, he was pursuing counseling with her even when she refused he went anyhow, then they both went, then she refused to continue. He talked with her parents, he pursued moving them somewhere new where they could both start fresh and create their own adventure, he created traditions hoping they would share them. Maybe none of it is what she needed, but he will say I was so in love with her, easily.

 

He has long standing friendships.

 

He is flawed, to be sure, but works hard to find one individual connection.

 

Edited to add: I had thought he and the exGF had been best friends during this whole 10 year period. They had been introduced but didn't create a friendship and then more, until the end.

[IAmFCA]

On this point, maybe so. Certainly, people process loss within relationship, and just as certain, many relationships fail or are misguided choices because of grief and loss.

 

I am obviously wanting to hang on, but I know it may be impossible. It's easier for me to let go when I have a stronger command of relationship dynamics than I have had here. Even when I have made these observations before, my own part in it hasn't been clear. To me, at least.

[faraday]

On this point I drilled pretty hard and repeatedly, and I got back something different than I expected, consistent responses though I kept drilling to get a distant outcome.

 

During 8 of the 10 years, he was pursuing counseling with her even when she refused he went anyhow, then they both went, then she refused to continue. He talked with her parents, he pursued moving them somewhere new where they could both start fresh and create their own adventure, he created traditions hoping they would share them. Maybe none of it is what she needed, but he will say I was so in love with her, easily.

 

He has long standing friendships.

 

He is flawed, to be sure, but works hard to find one individual connection.

 

I'm sorry. I have to agree with the other girls

 

This is looking (from the outside- remember there's more clarity out here) that he's stringing you along. You've gotta cut bait girl.

 

My WIJK guy did the whole..."soon we'll be together, but I have things I need to work on so I can be your dream man" thing with me too. We broke up around the 5 month mark...and we didn't leave each other's lives for 2 1/2 years....we spent the next two years in this weird limbo almost exactly like what you're in....and I know how painful it is to walk away- I couldn't...until we had hurt each other so much (because I did bust him with other women when we were in limbo. He was a cad) that I hated him....and if I have one regret now...it's that I didn't walk away. But I really thought that special connection was worth fighting for...because all the biggest struggles (the longest serving mountain hikes) have the best view at the top that make them worth it. And when you love someone, they're worth fighting for! Right? Except...I barely knew him....and I thought he was worth fighting for...I really did, with every fibre of my being...and I look back now...and am shocked...because...I believed the version of him that he told me he was...that he truly believed he was...that others believed he was....but he was a broken human human being inside...and I kept pouring in all my love...and I couldn't fix him he couldn't be that man that I thought he was (that he wanted to be).

 

When him and I talked a few weeks ago, he mentioned he's moving in with his gf....and I told him I was happy for him...he told me..."I don't know how she puts up with me. I f up so much." Because...it's him. It wasn't me.

 

And I hope you know that walking away doesn't make you any less...it doesn't mean that you don't love him enough, that you're abandoning him in his time of need...because you're not. You can't fill the hole in his heart...it's not your job. He needs to come to you whole.

 

If this was a 10 year marriage, I would tell you different...but this....it isn't worth sacrificing the next two years of happiness for

 

We're all giving you virtual hugs and hoping so much you take the route of self preservation. I like you ITIC...take care of your heart.

[mhowe]

I understand. We had our first "break" in Nov of 2010 --- 6 months AFTER his mother died, in combo with other life stressors that overwhelmed him (financial loss, health issue, etc). And it wasn't until the loss of my mother in 2013 --- and my need for a break to deal with her and MY grief --- that his sense of loss reappeared as well.

 

It isn't the grief and loss per se --- but the processing of them. He is at a place where he needs to clean house. And he is a hoarder....of connections.

 

For him, this will not be an easy task. Nor should it be. But for him to come to the table with as much clarity as possible --- there should be consequences. Consequences for deciding what to hold dear, and what to discard.

 

If he is holding you in one hand, the process of cleaning is thereby hampered by staying focused....on holding on. The very thing he is trying to learn. To let go, with love ---

 

We're all giving you virtual hugs and hoping so much you take the route of self preservation. I like you ITIC...take care of your heart.

[mhowe]

I might add --- that in the botched recon, where I had "friend zoned" him due to the fact that he would be in the periphery of my life (I have rented commercial space to him for over a decade and there was no need to change that) ---

 

what made him step up (in his words) was the loss of hope. Hope for anything more than a passing hello. Hope for me being a partner with him.

 

If I had stayed with his little courting moves, his "I'm not ready"....who knows where we would be. Because in his head, in his timeline, there was hope and no hurry. And it wasn't until I said "you know what --- I deserve more. I deserve you coming to the table as a partner....I'm out" --- that he put on his big boy pants and threw his "all in" hat into the ring.

 

(sorry for the mixed clothing metaphor)

[faraday]

Sometimes I wonder if I had handled my WIJK differently of it would have ended with us together. Probably not...mine turned out to be too broken and too unaware to fix himself....but I think you're right that....when someone isn't doing what they should be, they probably need to be left alone to sort through themselves. If it jilts them, they might come back...if it doesn't...at least you're not waiting around for years wondering when.

[Batya33]

I love that "a hoarder of connections". Talk about clarity (I agree with that in this situation but even generally -so clear).

[IAmFCA]

Thank you ladies. I am grateful I don't want to fix him (that would have been my old move) and I am grateful I can see his faults. Those two abilities to see will be helpful in the days ahead. I have bolded some ideas I will use again...

 

He is at a place where he needs to clean house. And he is a hoarder....of connections.

 

Truth. Personal and professional connections will change, and need to change. This wife/GF/GF/Next that Chickadeedee mentioned is true but has been a distraction to me, because it pointed me in the direction of looking for an unseemly consumption of women when really the thing is a hoarding of connections. In a sense, he never let go of his wife until the court allegations. The pain now is acute because of the source of the allegations, not the allegations themselves. He had no intention of dating her, no desire for her, no respect for her and no love for her, but he was holding on to an idea of her that remained... easier to do that than to let her go and question his judgment, face a different reality of who she is, etc. True accross the board. OK to trace it back to being adopted, demanding dad etc etc, but who cares, in the end, it is a skill to be learned.

 

The connections will never fill the hole. The hole has to be filled by discovering it doesn't have to exist.

 

Skipping therapist speak: we learn to let go, and we discover we can stand on our own. We feel better about ourselves. Then we choose which connections to attract or rebuild.

 

If he is holding you in one hand, the process of cleaning is thereby hampered by staying focused....on holding on. The very thing he is trying to learn. To let go, with love ---

 

This image of holding on to me with one hand and letting go with the other -- we need two hands to clean effectively.

 

I know I don't want to stick around to watch him date, have him see me do the same; it is why I asked him yesterday about the FZ dynamic. He doesn't want that either.

 

A way to think about it is that we agree to let the connection go, rather than letting each other go.

[IAmFCA]

And I am grateful for you coaches as I crab walk down the road, even as you know the path you are letting me walk it anyhow. Thank you.

[mhowe]

A way to think about it is that we agree to let the connection go, rather than letting each other go.

 

No. The connection will remain, regardless. FZ or dating will diminish it. Death will diminish it. But it will never disappear.

 

Let each other go ---- with love, so that you may come back with authentic availability, which is what is not in existence now.

 

And the image of cleaning --- with one hand --- was in my head when I wrote it.

[IAmFCA]

A way to think about it is that we agree to let the connection go, rather than letting each other go.

 

No. The connection will remain, regardless. FZ or dating will diminish it. Death will diminish it. But it will never disappear.

 

Let each other go ---- with love, so that you may come back with authentic availability, which is what is not in existence now.

 

And the image of cleaning --- with one hand --- was in my head when I wrote it.

 

Thank you MHowe.

[IAmFCA]

I came back on to report that he just called me to say Hi. Classic. I said, when you call me, I always wonder which was the detail you called to tell me about, because I always figure there was a reason that you called. / No, I just called to say Hi.

 

That is an intentional, specific move on his part.

 

As we (because its all of us now, though I know I am holding y'all up lol) are moving towards creating more distance, he seems to be moving towards being attentive. Of course. Because that is how we hoard connections.

 

Crap.

 

So if he says, You know what, I can do this. What do I do then?

[Batya33]

If he says he is available for a committed relationship with you, and you believe him, and you want the same thing with him then what would the issue be?

[mhowe]

 

So if he says, You know what, I can do this. What do I do then?

 

Let each other go ---- with love, so that you may come back with authentic availability, which is what is not in existence now.

[chickadeedee]

Have you ever seen how when a mother picks up a young child the baby will take one its little hands and tap tap tap, pat pat pat on Mommy's breast? It is an almost unconscious gesture, not a 'specific move,' just an idle checking to make sure its beloved and comfortable boobies are still there should the desire for comfort and to snuggle and suck them arises.

 

Your ex is the master of pat pat pat tap tap tap. He's trying to keep you on tap and available to him for whenever he's in the mood for comfort or attention from you. So he is not being attentive, he is ensuring the boobies are still out there waiting and available to him when he's in the mood for them.

 

What do you do if he says he can do this? Then you make sure he does it. He starts acting like your committed BF rather than treating you like you're his sister and he just needs to check in now and again rather than really and truly incorporating you fully into his life as a partner, a monogamous partner who makes and keeps commitments and spends a large percentage of his free time with you. And if he doesn't/won't, you drop him and go find a man who will.

[mhowe]

He's trying to keep you on tap So that's where the expression came from....I saw what you did there.

[IAmFCA]

I've been watching him process but I know it is the tip of the iceberg ...

 

At the same time, I am myself not convinced that the only way is to do this alone.

 

As soon as I write that, I feel fear that one day, he will have to walk the last five yards alone, as happened with you, MHowe. I can see the value in that. What sticks with me is that people create lifelong relationships... there must be ways to learn without having to go cold turkey?

 

I am ahead of myself, in any event. Still, let's take a stab at this - what would I want to hear? If I had my druthers, it would be 1) a therapist, maybe a psychotherapist; 2) some sort of habitual activity like a morning run; 3) a date night every other Saturday. The combination of a safe place to process the past and prepare for the future, plus creating and accepting habits into his life - that would be impactful. The therapist could become his connection, making the rest of us as expendable as we should be.

 

OK, putting this topic away for the moment. Am way ahead of me, but am glad to have played it out (and knowing all is fluid).

[chickadeedee]

This 'processing' he has to do is his own journey and not yours.

 

The problem here is you are constantly on the edge of our seat and totally focused on his issues because you see your own potential future happiness as dependent on him 'processing' his life in a way that will make him want to be your partner, make him be a good partner, give you what you want an need.

 

So he has a 'good day' and says something that leads you to believe he is coming around or 'processing' or 'getting closer' to being your partner and you're over the moon. then he has a 'bad day' and and talks about wanting a baby maker or zips off to do something with someone else rather than you or gives you mixed signals then zips off again. But the 'good days' or 'bad days' are being rated on whether it looks like he's getting closer or farther away from being your partner.

 

his journey must be his own if he is genuinely not ready for a relationship and/or doesn't want to be in a relationship with you. You are being dragged up and down, back and forth, based on whether you are perceiving him as making progress or back sliding away from you. But he's not really back sliding, he's just on his journey that he has decided is not going to including you other than as a sister or a nice comforting pair of boobies when he wants them.

 

You can't live like this. It will make you crazy. YOU need to process that he is not your BF and has demoted you to sister/friend for the time being, and that is not a healthy place for you to be because you want so much more from him and have mentally tied your future potential happiness to having this man choose you. So you are 'other focused' and not in a good way that is treacherous for your mental health if you continue like this.

 

After as long as he was with you, he needs to either be all in or all out. And if he's not all in, then you need to take yourself out of this roller coaster ride to protect your mental health and give yourself a chance to focus on what is good for you and your children and not the constant minute analysis of where he is in his 'processing' and how that relates to you. What is scary is that some people ultimately decide they don't want to 'process.' they just fall from situation to situation, woman to woman rather than doing the hard mental work to change their lives and commit to someone.

[IAmFCA]

Yes, I have written the same bolded thought to him as well --

 

And in general, chickadeedee, I would say the gist of your post is dead on. I see progression, I see change, so I wouldn't use some of the same language etc, but yes, I am interpreting his behavior as if it has arrow signs showing direction. I have been completely unable to sustain a moment-to-moment existence. My call with him yesterday was getting at this, and that is why he set the deadline of Monday, to force himself to sort his own thinking.

 

It has to be his own journey, that is fine. It gets back to, are you in or out. Even better, it gets back to, am I in or out. I haven't answered it for myself.

[chickadeedee]

Some people when confronted with loss will say, 'yes, of course I'm in' because they are terrified of being alone or panic at seeing a window of opportunity closing. But if he says 'all in,' your key after that will be whether he actually acts all in or not, or just keeps waffling.

[mhowe]

Yes indeed. When my bf said "I am all in, from this day forward" I was skeptical that he could affect such a change. But he did...and has sustained it...even through a few speed bumps. It can be done...but they REALLY need to want to.

[IAmFCA]

Some people when confronted with loss will say, 'yes, of course I'm in' because they are terrified of being alone or panic at seeing a window of opportunity closing. But if he says 'all in,' your key after that will be whether he actually acts all in or not, or just keeps waffling.

 

Agree completely, ladies. Thanks.

 

In his favor: this disruption has been 100% his doing (notwithstanding the impact of the clarity of my terms) -- that he has been reluctant to be 100% in when he really couldn't rely on himself to be 100% in. Whatever he comes up with, if anything... at least it comes from a place of him valuing his word.