From Wow to more Wow? My "I just knew" journal of wonder.

[chickadeedee]

Yes, indeed, you are correct. It does help though to have insight into this, because honestly, this breakup is not about you or anything you can 'fix,' it's all about him and this warped/unrealistic fantasy he's got going on about 'do-overs'. Dreaming about do-overs and 'should have been's' really is just another way to avoid confronting harsh realities and dealing with them. It may feel 'safer' to him to focus on what 'should' have happened in the past rather than what he 'should' be doing right now.

 

And it's a real shame, because it won't get him any closer to a happier life if he misses big opportunities (like you) because he is dwelling on the past and trying to reclaim some fantasy of a youthful family life, though he may think it will.

 

If he brings up any more of this 'it should have been you' and 'you know i love you and i should have been with you' stuff, i'd try to get his feet back on the ground as in rather than indulging that kind of thinking and going down that path, you should respond with something that grounds him like, 'well, it wasn't me and none of us can live in the past or the land of might have beens or reclaim our youth. it was what it was, and what are you going to do about living in the present and finding a happier present/future? we can't re-live the past or change things that have spooled out the way they have so let's not go down that road again.'

[IAmFCA]

Dead on.

 

He's conversant today, "I believe this incredible thing we have will be something, sometime, but I'm dead in the water right now." I said, as long as we are seeing other people, it's easier to say its going nowhere and just keep rolling. Living in the now.

 

I remember one of my friends hammering me over and over, until I finally dropped my rightful anger at my past and just accepted it, and moved on. Its a huge job, at least it was for me.

 

And then it was done.

[chickadeedee]

Honestly, i don't know how you can listen to this 'maybe someday' and 'we are magic' thing he keeps banging on about every day. It would just irritate me to no end. Here you are alive, warm, available, just down the road, and he's treating this like some romantic novel or where you are these star-crossed lovers in a Shakespearean play who can't be together because the universe is conspiring against you.

 

the reality is the world is FULL of men who go thru divorces, financial trouble due to divorces, custody issues, business issues etc. and they look to their partners who they love for love and support and get on with their lives rather than texting lines from romance novels while claiming there is no way to be together now.

[IAmFCA]

Honestly, i don't know how you can listen to this 'maybe someday' and 'we are magic' thing he keeps banging on about every day. It would just irritate me to no end. Here you are alive, warm, available, just down the road, and he's treating this like some romantic novel or where you are these star-crossed lovers in a Shakespearean play who can't be together because the universe is conspiring against you.

 

the reality is the world is FULL of men who go thru divorces, financial trouble due to divorces, custody issues, business issues etc. and they look to their partners who they love for love and support and get on with their lives rather than texting lines from romance novels while claiming there is no way to be together now.

 

It WAS really frustrating.

 

And then I realized my job is to accept him where he is, same as it is in any relationship with friends, siblings, whatever. He can't see past his own mess, so he can't tell he is in the middle of paradise. Believe me, he knows everyone else can see it. His dad even sent him business email to share with me, kind of like a little connection all around him.

 

He knows he is blind, but it doesn't help him see.

[Batya33]

Yes, if you choose to continue to have some sort of relationship with him you have to accept him where he is. And if he wishes to continue to have a relationship with you, he has to accept where you are including whatever boundaries you choose to have - including boundaries so that you can maintain your relationship with yourself as you see fit. You make very specific assumptions about why you think he behaves as he does.

[IAmFCA]

Yes, if you choose to continue to have some sort of relationship with him you have to accept him where he is. And if he wishes to continue to have a relationship with you, he has to accept where you are including whatever boundaries you choose to have - including boundaries so that you can maintain your relationship with yourself as you see fit. You make very specific assumptions about why you think he behaves as he does.

 

Not assumptions. We've had extensive discussion.

[IAmFCA]

Batya, I may be making assumptions. I would have been better positioned to learn if I had asked, Which assumptions do you mean?

 

My journal entry...

We visited his house tonight, after a family visit of our own. Unexpected, and the rhythm was right for both of our families. We got to celebrate a birthday, and that was fun. Six of us all ages around an outdoor fire. No weird vibe. It was a lovely visit, actually, with people investing in one another by sharing stories, lingering under blankets under the moon. We found another childhood story we shared. He invited me to see the house he grew up in tomorrow, as its being offered for sale and available to tour.

 

If I were to overtime it, I would note that it worked perfectly because we all felt warm and welcomed in one anothers company, and because the intimacy level was held at a depth we could manage. We had adult conversations, and intimate ones as between people who know each other well, but there wasn't a date vibe.

 

If I were to romanticize it, I would say it was a bit like an old fashioned courtship.

 

If I were to evaluate it in terms of psychotherapeutic concepts, I would say this is an appropriate manner in which to build trust and stability, and thereby combat the innate fear of abandonment.

 

Living in the moment, it was simply a lovely, unexpected visit.

[chickadeedee]

>>And then I realized my job is to accept him where he is,

 

I guess I'm just a really practical, no nonsense person where I'd look at this way: high drama, low return on investment. By that I mean, you invest a lot of thought and emotional energy and desire and time into this guy and he pulls you off center and distracts you and sends your emotions up and down all the time, yet you are getting a very low return on investment from him.

 

Now if you feel you are getting a good enough return on investment from him, then i can see continuing to allow him so much access to you and your life (which you are doing, allowing him a lot of access to contact you and interact with you). But mostly you're getting a lot of talk about what maybe/might/could happen when what you need is a real partner in your life.

 

How I would look at this is more like someone who is selling a house and wants to find a buyer. I would definitely not continue to show my house over and over and over to the same buyers who say they might potentially offer me a lot of money for it sometime in the nebulous future, distracting me, interrupting my life and thoughts, if they didn't come up with a firm offer fairly soon. And I definitely would go full bore into marketing and showing that house to other people and accepting another offer if it came my way, even if it wasn't the same pie-in-the-sky offer thrown around by the buyers who wouldn't commit to actually buying the house.

[chickadeedee]

And I hope you do know he has now maneuvered you into exactly the position he wants you in: a friend who is fully available to him when he' sin the mood with no commitment whatsoever and full freedom for him to pursue other women whenever he's in the mood for it.

 

A week ago you were telling him you were moving on with your life and dating others, and now you're sitting around with him while he controls the interaction into the mode he wants it to be, friends/potential FWB with no commitment.

 

As long as that makes you happy then fine, but also recognize that is not a commitment and is distracting you from finding a real partner.

[Batya33]

"And then I realized my job is to accept him where he is, same as it is in any relationship with friends, siblings, whatever. He can't see past his own mess, so he can't tell he is in the middle of paradise. Believe me, he knows everyone else can see it. His dad even sent him business email to share with me, kind of like a little connection all around him.

 

He knows he is blind, but it doesn't help him see."

 

You asked which assumptions - these assumptions. I am not judging, just observing that you make these specific assumptions (or assume that his and yours specific assumptions are true, again your perogative!). But from what you wrote it sounds like you see them not as assumptions but as facts based on what he has told you and what you have observed. All good!

 

I do not mean in my comments to take you back -I was typing observations based on your writings about him, your plans to see him at your family event and perhaps otherwise and your communications with him so if I am not following your lead but rather taking you back to where you don't wish to be by my writing observations (not judgments!) then I will of course not write anymore.

 

Edited to add that it sounds like you had fun with him last night.

[IAmFCA]

Assumptions. .. he's told me of feeling overwhelmed, etc.; of his family advising him opposite than what he is doing with me; the paradise comment reflects observations he will still make about how we are as a team; of his dad's motivation I can't be certain, but I have the whole email chain suggesting he forward it to me.

 

I'm sure he has and will get himself involved with others. It is odd that he sees what's here and won't claim it, but i am starting to get it. It's one more thing of value he'd be afraid to lose, and he can hardly hang on to what's he's got. By taking the relationship piece off the table, it takes the pressure off. Being able to visit takes advantage of the foundation that is already there. Builds on it, but that assumes progression.

[IAmFCA]

And yes, we all had a great a time. I couldn't pull my kids away. He and I visited the whole time, relaxed, sometimes faces close to keep it from disturbing the kids, sometimes laughter that doubles you in half, sometimes talking about practical, such as putting the boat in the water.

[Batya33]

It sounds like you're enjoying yourself and doing what you feel like doing. From what you write about him so is he.

[IAmFCA]

It sounds like you're enjoying yourself and doing what you feel like doing. From what you write about him so is he.

 

Yes, that is true. It's hard to argue against that at the moment.

[chickadeedee]

>>but i am starting to get it. It's one more thing of value he'd be afraid to lose, and he can hardly hang on to what's he's got.

 

Or he's realizing he prefers to have open relationships where he can pursue any option he wants based on his mood and doesn't have the demands/restrictions of a full time relationship and commitment.

 

You could read all his comments and actions to be that too.

 

If he is keeping his options open, you keep your options open to avoid getting really hurt if one day he stops coming around or announces he's found his baby maker, or in case this doesn't pan out into a committed relationship in the not too distant future.

[IAmFCA]

>>but i am starting to get it. It's one more thing of value he'd be afraid to lose, and he can hardly hang on to what's he's got.

 

Or he's realizing he prefers to have open relationships where he can pursue any option he wants based on his mood and doesn't have the demands/restrictions of a full time relationship and commitment.

 

You could read all his comments and actions to be that too.

 

If he is keeping his options open, you keep your options open to avoid getting really hurt if one day he stops coming around or announces he's found his baby maker, or in case this doesn't pan out into a committed relationship in the not too distant future.

 

True.

 

Except not true historically, and not true when he talks about his vision, his values, friends and family. He has openly said he will not be exclusive until he is confident the two people are for each other, so that means he is not confident we are for each other. Or that he is for anyone at the moment.

 

I am dating two alternatives currently - that's not right. One, plus one I'm in correspondence with but our schedules are opposite.

 

None of that would protect me from pain if he upped and got committed to someone else tomorrow. A relationship with him is off the table. Frankly, if he committed go someone now, I would pity her and hammer him to question his authenticity. Anyway, not going to happen. I remain the only woman to have met his family and kids. I'll have some transition time before such an event were to occur.

[IAmFCA]

As I was tooling about this morning, I thought about the crazy path of this thread. I thought about authenticity. At the end of the day, we still feel our usual connection. Take the sex out, the connection doesn'go away. To Faraday's point vis a vis her experience, maybe the connection doesn't go away and what then? At some point, it has to be managed to allow for a relationship with ourselves or someone else. That moment will show itself.

 

Mostly, I am the one who stands to feel more pain, because I am more ready and more available, at least in theory. He holds me accountable for being the best I can be and has lofty standards for whom he chooses for himself. I think this is a positive association, however it resolves itself.

 

Some places I thought he might suggest distance, he hasn't. Even after I said, "It's obvious we're not going anywhere. .." to which be objected. Unfettered access to his boat, continued family activities with our kids together. It's a bit like we make the household thing work while keeping separate personal lives, and becoming physically intimate (again) and to the exclusion of all others is the last thing that would happen. That is how my parents did it. My mom was dating 3 people when she chose my dad. By my parents example, all platonic behavior is dating, because it provides a chance for the two people to know each other.

 

It's odd in today's context. It's also odd if other personal relationships are being pursued in a serious manner. I don't know about all that yet. I know I can handle casual associations on his part. Someone who gets other kinds of visibility and access will challenge me. It's bound to happen. I'm not prepared for that yet, nor is he.

[chickadeedee]

>> A relationship with him is off the table. Frankly, if he committed go someone now, I would pity her and hammer him to question his authenticity.

 

Ah, OK, thanks for clarifying. I read you earlier post to mean you thought you two were on your way to starting up again, but in a FWB type situation.

[Batya33]

"At the end of the day, we still feel our usual connection. Take the sex out, the connection doesn'go away. To Faraday's point vis a vis her experience, maybe the connection doesn't go away and what then? At some point, it has to be managed to allow for a relationship with ourselves or someone else. That moment will show itself."

 

But don't people feel connections to other people all the time and for various reasons make the choice not to pursue a connection- that is how they "manage" feeling a connection. People who are married and have a crush make that choice, or logistics get in the way such that the connection can't be turned into an ongoing friendship -people move away, change their lifestyles, etc so that you still feel connected but you choose not to act on it. Some choose to let the interactions/relationships fade, others do it more confrontationally, others make a mutual decision. Not judging your decision just questioning your assumption that the connection needs to be "managed" in some way.

 

I don't know if a moment shows itself as you wrote or rather whether people choose how to act on the feeling of connection -sometimes in a moment, sometimes in a longer period of time but it's not necessarily a passive experience of a moment showing itself but rather the person making a choice.

[chickadeedee]

My own interpretation of connections is that i choose not to nurture connections and invest a lot of time and effort in them if the TYPE of connection is not really going to offer me what I want and need from the person. So if a guy is offering only a 'friend' type of connection, I am not going to invest a 'relationship' level of time, effort, and heart in him because that is very risky and takes the focus off of me putting effort into finding the right type of connection for myself.

 

and if there is a type mismatch between connections (my heart says i'm in love and am forming a deeper and deeper connection to him and he has put the brakes on and demoted the relationship to 'just friends'), then I think it is unwise to continue to nurture a 'love connection' by spending a lot of time and thought on him when he has defined the connection as friendship, You just get in deeper and deeper emotionally and down rate other men who might be good candidates because you do not yet feel the depth of connection you feel with this man you've known longer and who has dumped you as a lover but whom you still want.

 

It is unwise to be busily drilling for love with a man who is limiting thie relationship to only friendship. It's really about the opportunity cost and using good judgment about not sinking too much heart and time into someone who has told you he's not really available for the kind of relationship you want. I think he doesn't want to be lonely and wants a companion when he is in the mood for human contact or nurturing, but I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket anymore because he's not agreeing to a normal relationship and instead to this 'intimate friends' limbo.

 

I honestly think you have a better chance at romance if you tell him to go off and straighten his stuff out and only call you if he decides he wants a romance. Otherwise he has all the time in the world to keep you on the back burner, detach himself from you over time, while having total freedom to look for other women with you still patiently showering love, support, and attention on him in the background. My experience it the absolutely worst place to be in romantically is to be someone's back up plan and he clearly reinforces all the time that that is what you are.

[IAmFCA]

Batya, your point is well taken. I connect with people all day, almost every day. I've been that way since childhood and it's partly why I have the career I have. My sister and I used to have a private sort of joke, after a date, that went like this: How was it? / It was fun! He thinks we clicked.

 

That exchange was the kiss of death. The number of people with whom I can click on some level seems atypically large, relative to some, anyway.

 

This is just different. Maybe it's a distraction on the way to something else, but it doesn't feel like anything else. It just doesn't. Not sure I can explain that. It's not a crush, I rather think he's a pain in the tail as a life partner and while I think he is charming and attractive, those traits are replaceable. I have never met a family like his, so much like mine. How he is a hot mess right now; it's just like something that would happen with one of my sibs. My other sib and I shrug it off, like, that so xxx, and move on.

 

I literally drove around yesterday running my life wondering if I simply made a new family member, whom I am not supposed to date, but rather simply add to my family tree.

 

I want the slightest bit uncomfortable yesterday, giving him hello and goodbye hugs, having one on one time in the kitchen, sitting with our kids outside,talking directly with his kids, etc. If there had been a woman there, claiming her territory? Not ready for that. Nor would he put me in that position. Not trying to say that today, he is a full on friend. Am saying is a much broader/deeper level of familiarity than I find among friends of either gender.

 

Living in the now with it. Not interested in dating him now, because he doesn't have the capacity to love himself kindly so not me either. Maybe layer. Maybe not.

[IAmFCA]

Batya, your point is well taken. I connect with people all day, almost every day. I've been that way since childhood and it's partly why I have the career I have. My sister and I used to have a private sort of joke, after a date, that went like this: How was it? / It was fun! He thinks we clicked.

 

That exchange was the kiss of death. Happened all the time.

 

This is just different. Maybe it's a distraction on the way to something else, but it doesn't feel like anything else. Not sure I can explain that.

 

I literally drove around yesterday running my life wondering if I simply made a new family member, whom I am not supposed to date, but rather simply add to my family tree.

 

I wasn't the slightest bit uncomfortable yesterday, giving him hello and goodbye hugs, having one on one time in the kitchen, sitting with our kids outside, talking directly with his kids, etc. If there had been a woman there, claiming her territory? Not ready for that. Nor would he put me in that position. Nor would I bring a date to his house. Not trying to say he is a full on friend.

 

Living in the now with it. Not interested in dating him now in the modem sense, because he doesn't have the capacity to love himself kindly so he wouldn't be able to love me right either. Maybe later. Maybe not.

 

Normally would say, well then, nothing here, move on. That doesn't feel authentic. Maybe this is how we build trust, or manage a timing difference, or teach each other something. Not sure.

 

From his perspective, he knows he can trade on his qualities to attract women and have sex with them if that's his aim. He doesn't know if he can find and retain his next life partner. He may not trust himself and need to move slowly if he wants to rely on something.

 

From my perspective, I am looking for a playmate who can take me my next 40 years. If I find a playmate, that is a valuable find.

[mhowe]

You said "maybe layer"....and while you likely meant "later"....Freud might disagree.

[Batya33]

You said "maybe layer"....and while you likely meant "later"....Freud might disagree.

 

I was going to comment on that too!

[IAmFCA]

You said "maybe layer"....and while you likely meant "later"....Freud might disagree.

 

Lololol that is too funny ladies

 

Keeping my hands and my parts to myself.... And was not encouraged to do otherwise. ... so far?