The "Nice Guy" or The "Jerk", interesting article.

[Moontiger]

This subject comes up a lot on ENA, It usually starts with a thread were some guy asks way women go for "jerks". In each an every thread (that I have seen) women seem to have a pretty consistent response, basically saying "We want confident men not aggressive men." This then usually leads to some bickering back and forth between the two groups. One insisting that all they see is women going for jerk, not even give the nice guy a chance. The other insisting that is not true at all for a variety of reasons.

 

Well, we finally have a scientific study to help end this debate: link removed

 

Personally, I think this is spot on. I was wondering what others think.

[mhowe]

The difference between confidence and arrogance is HUGE.

 

And the difference between considerate and doormats...also very large.

 

What I consider in a mate is intelligence, a clear sense of self...and someone who is attracted to me, not only as a woman, but as an individual.

[Batya33]

Really tired of hearing passive, submissive people described as "nice". It's not nice.

[Moontiger]

One of this things I find interesting is, as pointed out in the article, this is one of the very first studies on regarding the "Alpha" vs "Beta" male. And the conclusion is that neither are what women want.

[mhowe]

I don't think that women use the Alpha/Beta model --- men think it is important.

[Moontiger]

I don't think that women use the Alpha/Beta model --- men think it is important.

 

Exactly! Even after many, many, women on this site had pointed out that this model is silly and won't help men get what they want. It's nice to be validated scientifically.

[Cheetarah]

That's exactly what I was thinking. That men find it important, women just raise their eyebrows quizzically at the whole thing.

 

Kind of like the large penis issue. As though women hold mass meetings in congregation halls talking shop and drawing diagrams about what constitutes acceptable members and what doesn't.

[sleepingdonut]

I approve of this.

 

image removed

[mhowe]

Women may sit around and talk about how "their" men don't listen --- but it would behoove them to read about how men/women process differently.

 

I have often been accused of thinking like a man, in that my brain/processing is very analytical -- but I am emotional as well. It is just that my emotions predominantly take a back seat to my logic. If I can understand the "process", I can put almost any conflict in the right frame.

 

I think that "sex ed" (if it is still called that) in highschool, would serve all much better to spend a week on the "nuts and bolts", and the rest of the term on communication and listening skills.

 

Our parents are our role models...for good or bad, in establishing a base line of what constitutes "love". And it takes maturity, experience and determination to either accept or reject that model and forge for ourselves what will be our own baseline for a committed relationship.

 

It isn't about alpha/beta --- or "girly girl", etc.

 

It is about, when you come down to it --- trust, respect and the "mystery of the connection."

[tom1607307597]

I don't like the Alpha/Beta model because it makes guys think they need to be Alpha, or learn to act Alpha to get women. That's what helps promote PUA teaching and sometimes PUA takes this stuff too far. It also implies that if they are Beta they can't get women, or if they do manage to the Alpha will just steal his girl from him. Obviously this isn't such a black and white area.

 

If the people behind this study are right what are demanding, dominant, shy, submissive, or quiet men supposed to do about attracting women? A guy who is naturally quiet can be less quiet, but I don't see a quiet person going to the other side of the spectrum and becoming loud.

[mhowe]

The key to attracting someone is to be your own, authentic self. Not try to be someone you are not.

[Moontiger]

I don't like the Alpha/Beta model because it makes guys think they need to be Alpha, or learn to act Alpha to get women. That's what helps promote PUA teaching and sometimes PUA takes this stuff too far. It also implies that if they are Beta they can't get women, or if they do manage to the Alpha will just steal his girl from him. Obviously this is not such a black and white area as it can seem.

 

If the people behind this study are right what are demanding, dominant, shy, submissive, or quiet men supposed to do about attracting women? A guy who is naturally quiet you can be less quiet, but I don't see a quiet person going to the other side of the spectrum and becoming loud.

 

I think what they are looking at in this study is the "ideal" kind of like how science has found the "perfect" face: link removed

 

Very few live up to the ideal, there are some people who prefer something outside what most people want, and I think the vast majority of people are will to go with the "less than ideal" if the big things match up.

[notalady]

This couldn't be more true:

 

While it is possible to pick up some types of women by acting “alpha,” because of the kind of women this seduction method attracts, the flings you successfully land can become messier than you bargained for. It’s for this reason that men who go for the alpha male ideology often fall victim to a selection bias in regards to their perception of women: because the women who are attracted to them are less stable and more promiscuous, they come to believe that all women are “skanky” and “crazy.”

 

At the same time, when these men try their dominant pick-up techniques on more well-adjusted women, their hostility and narcissism creep the women out, and cause them to turn these guys down. This rejection makes these would-be “pick-up artists” more hostile to women, and they figure the problem is that they’re still too much of a “nice guy.” They then try to up their alpha quotient even further, which makes even more women turn away from them. And the cycle continues.

[ParisPaulette]

Wow, a study that actually looks at some truths. Over the years I've come to realize that every time I heard a man complain about how all women go for jerks, it was because they themselves were attracted to a certain type of unstable women. The type of woman who might look good, but would have a myriad of problems and red flags who herself went for the guys who did not treat her well leaving Mr. Self-described Nice Guy in the dust. And I saw the reverse of that too--the "Nice Girl" pining for the attractive unstable guy with red flags sticking out of him. In both scenarios the key underpinning wasn't really whether one of them were dominant or submissive, a nice guy or girl or a jerk. It was that the people involved on both sides of the equation were themselves attracted to people who were emotionally unavailable or unstable.

 

And this makes sense, you know? In my younger years when my confidence was low or when I was going through emotional turmoil and instability in my life yes I did find the "bad boys" more attractive. Also because they were the ones who would come up and talk to me and pursue me more than the guys that sat on the sidelines. Quite possibly a bit freaked by the instability I think they could see coming off of me a mile away. As the study says, though when I became more stable and confident those guys that had once seemed so attractive became less and less so. And the guys who didn't feel the need to rush up and try to strong arm me or schmooze me out of the gate began to catch my eyes and interest. They became the more attractive choice for a mate.

 

So yeah, maybe the question shouldn't be "Why do all girls go for jerks" or "Why do all guys go for b**ches"? Maybe it should be, "Why am I choosing emotionally unavailable and/or unstable people to be attracted to in the first place and how do I change that?"

[Blue Spiral]

"Art of Manliness"? That sounds like a site with no cultural agenda at all...

 

It's amazing how women suddenly approve of what men say when men help them rationalize being attracted to jerks.

[beingawesome]

I've appreciated your comments on other threads regarding "nice guys" and "alphas" and "betas" - I even watched that Jenna Marbles video from the first time from your linking! It's a red flag once I hear/read a man using that type of lingo, because it's usually followed by a system of beliefs on how to pull women. Not connect with them, just how to get them and how to get them to do what you want. And I have no patience for those kinds of attitudes.

 

This was a well written article, thanks for sharing!

[Moontiger]

"Art of Manliness"? That sounds like a site with no cultural agenda at all...

 

It's amazing how women suddenly approve of what men say when men help them rationalize being attracted to jerks.

 

So...you did not read the article?

 

FYI, the article posted (since you have not, it seem taking the time to read it and see for yourself) is a summary of what they call "some of the earliest scientific studies" regarding the connection between "dominance" and attraction, specifically in regards to heterosexual couples. These studies were conducted by University level researchers.

 

Heard about the study here:

 

Then using this wonderful thing called "google" I found a summary article to post for people to read.

 

Once you have actually read it I would be very interested in your thoughts.

[Doc Blaze]

Exactly! Even after many, many, women on this site had pointed out that this model is silly and won't help men get what they want. It's nice to be validated scientifically.

 

i dont think ive ever heard a female use the terms alpha and beta...

[mhowe]

i dont think ive ever heard a female use the terms alpha and beta...

 

I think I used it in calculus....but never with regard to a man!

 

Ooops...I stand corrected. My college bf had beta fish. And actually, a beta fish is an alpha male!

[Moontiger]

i dont think ive ever heard a female use the terms alpha and beta...

 

Generally speaking we don't. At least, not me or the women I know. I'm using them here as a kind of short hand.

[Moontiger]

I think I used it in calculus....but never with regard to a man!

 

Ooops...I stand corrected. My college bf had beta fish. And actually, a beta fish is an alpha male!

 

I had a beta fish once. I named him Ruby cuz he was this really pretty shade of red. Isn't red considered an "alpha" color?

[mhowe]

I had a beta fish once. I named him Ruby cuz he was this really pretty shade of red. Isn't red considered an "alpha" color?

 

We had red and blue --- but you have to keep them in separate tanks because they fight....very alpha.

[Blue Spiral]

So...you did not read the article?

 

I read a few lines, but it was so ridiculous that I couldn't get any further. It's just typical shaming and rationalizing.

 

I'm always surprised to see that women support promoting traditional, restrictive gender roles...as long as it's aimed towards men. I'm the least alpha, meekest guy you'll ever meet, and I don't want to change, because I'm fine with being me.

[Cheetarah]

Your responses to the article and discussion about it make zero sense. I don't understand what you're basing your contributions on.

 

You're awfully pissy for someone who is supposedly comfortable in his own skin.

[Blue Spiral]

Your responses to the article and discussion about it make zero sense. I don't understand what you're basing your contributions on.

 

I can't decide if you're being willfully naive, or if your cognitive dissonance is just that strong.

 

You're awfully pissy for someone who is supposedly comfortable in his own skin.

 

I am indeed comfortable, but women (and society as a whole) don't like my "skin", so to speak. They think that men like me should either shut up or change into something they approve of.