Having second thoughts...

[Batya33]

I guess, but it's been established by now that this is not a possibility for me. Mutual attraction is not something I can find. And "emotional investment" is a bad idea for me; honestly, if I ever manage to find another girl I actually "like", the best thing I could possibly do is stay as far away from her as possible, because otherwise, I'll just go through a bunch of unnecessary heartache over someone that won't have any kind of attraction to me. What's the point?

 

Mutual attraction is something you have chosen to give up trying to find. And as I and many others will attest to finding the right person is worth all the heartache, obstacles, etc.

[Batya33]

It seems like older people (like 30s and 40s) find the STD-testing thing more acceptable while younger people are like "OMG, really?" I guess it's because maybe older people have had bad experiences with finding out their partner wasn't honest.

 

I had no bad experiences like that. I just cared about my health, including my future fertility. If someone said "OMG really" or anything similar I knew I shouldn't date that person. That happened rarely.

[MattW]

I had no bad experiences like that. I just cared about my health, including my future fertility. If someone said "OMG really" or anything similar I knew I shouldn't date that person. That happened rarely.

 

Hey, I, myself, have no problems getting tested if she does, too. I don't know how to go about getting tested (since I don't "have" a doctor, nor do I ever go to any kind of physician for anything), nor do I know what it entails, but I have no complaints about doing that, for the sake of mutuality. I'll bring it up to this woman next time I text her, see what she says.

 

Even if you pursue casual sex, don't give up on finding a relationship. You don't need to stay as far away from a girl you like as possible. Just keep a middling distance, to show some interest but not become overwhelming.

 

Er, what I meant was, if I ever find myself "liking" another girl, I need to get away from her and stay away, for my own good. If I "like" someone, I'm already too attached to them, to the point where rejection hurts too much and I can't get over it (case in point with the last girl I liked). It's never going to work out with a girl that I actually "like", so I'm better off not putting myself through all that turmoil.

 

Mutual attraction is something you have chosen to give up trying to find. And as I and many others will attest to finding the right person is worth all the heartache, obstacles, etc.

 

I used to think that, but after actually feeling the heartache, and knowing that the "right person" isn't out there, why bother with any of that? If my choice is between living a sad stress-filled life, chasing after something that doesn't exist, and living a stress-free sex-filled life with no commitments, I think the latter sounds a bit more appealing.

[Batya33]

The latter might very well include commitments if a pregnancy results or if you start to feel emotionally committed. Sex-filled doesn't mean stress-free in the least especially in the way you think you want to go about it.

 

If you're not ready to take care of your physical health then you're not ready to have intercourse, in my opinion.

 

Your assumption that the "right person isn't out there" is simply another excuse and lying to yourself like that certainly will affect your enjoyment of sex.

[MattW]

If you're not ready to take care of your physical health then you're not ready to have intercourse, in my opinion.

 

Eh? The only thing I really questioned is the whole dental dam thing, but if it's really that big of a thing, I'll look into using those. Other than that, like I said, I'm totally down with being safe and healthy, using condoms, getting tested, etc.

 

Also, as far as the whole pregnancy thing goes, I'm kind of interested in finding older women to sleep around with, because that eliminates that risk. Granted, this woman right now is in her 30s, but she says she has an IUD, and those are pretty effective from what I've heard, are they not? Combined with me using a condom, I should be okay with that, I think.

[Batya33]

Eh? The only thing I really questioned is the whole dental dam thing, but if it's really that big of a thing, I'll look into using those. Other than that, like I said, I'm totally down with being safe and healthy, using condoms, getting tested, etc.

 

Also, as far as the whole pregnancy thing goes, I'm kind of interested in finding older women to sleep around with, because that eliminates that risk. Granted, this woman right now is in her 30s, but she says she has an IUD, and those are pretty effective from what I've heard, are they not? Combined with me using a condom, I should be okay with that, I think.

 

LOL!! I got pregnant at almost 42, as did several of my friends. Elimiinates risk? Please please do some more homework before you start having sex, ok? You have no idea if a stranger has an IUD or not and a condom is not totally effective against STDs or pregnancy.

 

I'd find out where you can get tested in your area whether at a doctor's office or at a clinic so that in case you have concerns you don't have to then start looking where to go.

[blueidealist24]

 

Er, what I meant was, if I ever find myself "liking" another girl, I need to get away from her and stay away, for my own good. If I "like" someone, I'm already too attached to them, to the point where rejection hurts too much and I can't get over it (case in point with the last girl I liked). It's never going to work out with a girl that I actually "like", so I'm better off not putting myself through all that turmoil.

 

 

I get what you mean, but totally giving up on relationships so you don't get hurt doesn't really sound like the best course of action to me. I have to admit, I've considered it myself, but since I'm not interested in having casual sex at all, there's really not much else out there for me besides relationships.

[itsallgrand]

I think something in you is addicted and gets a big payoff from staying in the "inbetween world" of no relationship, not giving yourself permission nor being willing to risk that, and no non committed sex either.

 

In short, I think you like being in purgatory. Almost as if, chronic indecision has become your mode you are most comfy in now. And you aren't willing to give that up.

 

Re: dental dams. Don't have personal experience with them. But I've seen them at drugstores. And I know clinics have them. And I've been told; a condom can double as one in a pinch. I'd use them, if I were you, going into such a high risk situation as you are considering. Hopefully; you won't go there. But if you do; I don't think you can be too safe. You sure can easily get sick by going down on a woman orally. Honestly; the whole idea of the dental dam does seem quite unattractive/unsexy to me. And so does the idea to me, that the lack of connection and trust there is so profound that it gets to that. But i suppose for some people who have very casual sexual encounters, it makes a lot of sense. Better than getting sick.

[Batya33]

I would have added to her reputation if I could have but alas was blocked. Itsallgrand makes a great point Mattw -listen to this or at least reread it once a day or so.

Before you were born (in 1981) Rush recorded the song Freewill. Listen to it, ok? "if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice". And while you are at it I also recommend "Long Way Around" by The Dixie Chicks (somewhat after you were born).

 

I have a close relative who did the black and white thinking you express, especially about relationships. She went to the extremes of casual sex, contracted a not serious STD and when, at age 25 she met "the one" who wasn't the type to be comfortable with a past like hers, she was terrified of sharing her past and sharing the STD (meaning, the information as the STD was in remission and not serious).

She had to do a lot of gray area thinking and gray area expressing to this guy. Luckily he has a great heart and soul, still accepted her wholeheartedly and they've now been married 3 months. But she wouldn't have gotten there if she'd refused to take the risk of a healthy relationship with a healthy guy. She reminded me so much of you when she was 24 (and younger) the way she refused to budge from the black/white thinking. But she did, it can be done, and she found her happy ending and beginning.

[MattW]

Like I've been saying, though, what I want is not a possibility for me. It's not. I'm positive that I will never find a girl that I share a mutual attraction with, I'm positive I'll never have a happy healthy traditional relationship. The fact that I want(ed) those things is irrelevant. I can't have them, and that's that.

 

When I had feelings for the last girl I liked, and when I thought I could actually be with her, it was the greatest feeling I'd ever felt. I didn't want it to stop. Then she turned me down, and went on to date idiots that mistreated her instead, and seemingly started looking at me like a creep for liking her. And that was one of the worst feelings I've ever felt. I don't want to go through that ever again. If I could go back in time, I would absolutely stop myself from pursuing this girl. I very much regret that I ever developed feelings for her in the first place. "Feelings" are bad news, for me. I wish I'd never fell for her, hell, I wish I'd never met her.

 

I need to be done with "feelings". I can't do it again. I need to stop looking for someone I can share my life with, and start looking for people I can derive pleasure from. I've always lived my life on the straight and narrow, I've always wanted to be the "good" person, that does things the "right" way. Maybe I NEED to "go off the deep end". Maybe I need to give up on the fantasy of having a nice happy healthy relationship, and find alternate ways to fill that void.

 

I can't keep chasing after something I know doesn't exist. It just doesn't make sense to keep doing that. There's no "right person" out there for me, and on the off chance I'm wrong about it and there is, she'll never want to be with me, so I sure as hell don't want to meet her, because it would just be another headache.

[Batya33]

"Like I've been saying, though, what I want is not a possibility for me. It's not. I'm positive that I will never find a girl that I share a mutual attraction with, I'm positive I'll never have a happy healthy traditional relationship. The fact that I want(ed) those things is irrelevant. I can't have them, and that's that."

 

And that's what most people here disagree with. And so do you,you're just not admitting it for the reasons Itsallgrand wrote.

[MattW]

Well... What am I supposed to say? I can't keep lying to myself and chasing after some "happy ending" that doesn't exist. I'm just not "tough" enough to stand the whole "almost never finding a girl I like, then when I do, she's not attracted to me" thing.

 

It's just too much, and my feelings go off the charts and cause me to hurt much more than I should. It's already wrecked me pretty good this last time. I really don't think I could handle it again.

 

That's why I think it'd be for the best if I cut my emotions and feelings out of it completely. Why go through the pain of having feelings and emotions, when I could just lackadaisically pursue sex?

[blueidealist24]

I'm not sure if you'll be able to take feelings and emotions completely out of it though. What if you end up feeling like one of your casual sex partners is the girl for you, personality-wise, after you get to know them better?

[MattW]

Eh, I dunno. Break things off with them, get as far away as possible, and try to find someone else to have sex with? Ideally, I'm looking for women that I don't see any kind of actual future with. Like, I wouldn't really want to "date" some one that's more than five years older than myself, and/ or has kids that are fairly close in age to me (or had kids at all, if I'm being completely honest). Stuff like that. Makes it easier to stay separated emotionally, yanno?

[Batya33]

Well... What am I supposed to say? I can't keep lying to myself and chasing after some "happy ending" that doesn't exist. I'm just not "tough" enough to stand the whole "almost never finding a girl I like, then when I do, she's not attracted to me" thing.

 

It's just too much, and my feelings go off the charts and cause me to hurt much more than I should. It's already wrecked me pretty good this last time. I really don't think I could handle it again.

 

That's why I think it'd be for the best if I cut my emotions and feelings out of it completely. Why go through the pain of having feelings and emotions, when I could just lackadaisically pursue sex?

 

Because you're not going to be able to be lackadaisical and because the sex is likely not going to be what you think it's going to be plus it likely will raise a whole host of issues you're not contemplating.

No worries about choosing to stay single -I just think your reasons why are unhealthy and your choice to pursue casual sex given what you really want deep down is going to come back to bite you.

 

You absolutely can choose to expand the number and types of people you are attracted to, if you choose. Once again - what Itsallgrand wrote is right on target -thoughts?

[MattW]

Because you're not going to be able to be lackadaisical and because the sex is likely not going to be what you think it's going to be plus it likely will raise a whole host of issues you're not contemplating.

 

But I have contemplated the STD and pregnancy issues; I understand those are risks, but again, those are risks you take with anyone you have sex with. All you can really do is minimize the risks as much as you can, and that's what I hope to do. What, exactly, do you think that I "think casual sex is going to be"? I'm not expecting it to solve all my problems, I'm just expecting it to be a way for me to experience and feel some level of physical intimacy with a person.

 

No worries about choosing to stay single -I just think your reasons why are unhealthy and your choice to pursue casual sex given what you really want deep down is going to come back to bite you.

 

And again, "what I really want" doesn't matter one bit. If you, or someone else, can provide a good reason why what I "really want" matters, great, but I see it as completely irrelevant. It's all about what I can have vs what I can't have, and I can't have "what I really want". Aside from the already covered risks of me contracting an STD or an accidental pregnancy occurring, I don't really see how this can "come back to bite me".

 

You absolutely can choose to expand the number and types of people you are attracted to, if you choose. Once again - what Itsallgrand wrote is right on target -thoughts?

 

I don't know about that. I mean, I see attraction as something that you don't really have much control of. You either feel it for someone, or you don't. If you have to force yourself to "choose" to be attracted to someone, chances are, you're settling for someone you don't really feel something for, and honestly, I don't want to do that. If I were to date someone, I'd want it to be someone I really admire and think highly of, someone I actually care about and respect, not someone that I just kinda feel "okay" about. As for Itsallgrand's post, well, I'll just go ahead and respond to that directly.

 

I think something in you is addicted and gets a big payoff from staying in the "inbetween world" of no relationship, not giving yourself permission nor being willing to risk that, and no non committed sex either.

 

In short, I think you like being in purgatory. Almost as if, chronic indecision has become your mode you are most comfy in now. And you aren't willing to give that up.

 

Honestly? I wouldn't say that you're wrong. To be frank, I believe deep down, I have self-loathing issues, and on some level, for whatever reason, I believe that I deserve to be alone in the world, sad, all to myself, left to grow old and die alone. Don't know why, don't understand it, but yeah, that's probably one of the forces at work, here. That part of me doesn't WANT me to be happy, and again, doesn't think I deserve it.

 

The bottom line is, I'm lonely, I crave intimacy with another person, but I absolutely do not believe that what I really want (mental/ emotional intimacy) is even a remote possibility for myself. So, to me, it makes sense to start pursuing purely physical intimacy, instead. Perhaps I'm simply better off that way.

[Batya33]

But I have contemplated the STD and pregnancy issues; I understand those are risks, but again, those are risks you take with anyone you have sex with. All you can really do is minimize the risks as much as you can, and that's what I hope to do. What, exactly, do you think that I "think casual sex is going to be"? I'm not expecting it to solve all my problems, I'm just expecting it to be a way for me to experience and feel some level of physical intimacy with a person.

No, the risks are far greater with a stranger. I just wouldn't expect it to feel "intimate" that's all- not in the way you're expecting -I agree that you should start with perhaps just fooling around with someone -some kissing, etc and see how that goes.

 

And again, "what I really want" doesn't matter one bit. If you, or someone else, can provide a good reason why what I "really want" matters, great, but I see it as completely irrelevant. It's all about what I can have vs what I can't have, and I can't have "what I really want". Aside from the already covered risks of me contracting an STD or an accidental pregnancy occurring, I don't really see how this can "come back to bite me".

 

I disagree with the "can't have" part - you don't choose to have it and that negativity is why your approach likely won't work.

 

 

I don't know about that. I mean, I see attraction as something that you don't really have much control of. You either feel it for someone, or you don't. If you have to force yourself to "choose" to be attracted to someone, chances are, you're settling for someone you don't really feel something for, and honestly, I don't want to do that. If I were to date someone, I'd want it to be someone I really admire and think highly of, someone I actually care about and respect, not someone that I just kinda feel "okay" about. As for Itsallgrand's post, well, I'll just go ahead and respond to that directly.

I think you have control over your mindset, your attitudes towards different types of people, your social skills (i.e. the distance creating sarcasm), and if you do the work it won't be settling -you'll simply find yourself more attracted to different types of people.

[MattW]

No offense, but I just don't buy into the whole "choosing" thing. Me "choosing" to think one way or another about something isn't going to mean that there's someone out there I'll be attracted to that will also be attracted to me. It's all circumstantial. Nobody cares what I "choose" to think about anything, the world doesn't care what I think. At best, the only difference what I "choose to think" makes is that I'll either grow old and die alone and feel sad about it, or grow old and die alone and just be able to shrug it off. That's literally the only difference "what I think" makes.

[Batya33]

No offense, but I just don't buy into the whole "choosing" thing. Me "choosing" to think one way or another about something isn't going to mean that there's someone out there I'll be attracted to that will also be attracted to me. It's all circumstantial. Nobody cares what I "choose" to think about anything, the world doesn't care what I think. At best, the only difference what I "choose to think" makes is that I'll either grow old and die alone and feel sad about it, or grow old and die alone and just be able to shrug it off. That's literally the only difference "what I think" makes.

 

That's true and that's not at all what I wrote or meant -it's not about choosing to think a certain way, it's choosing to get to the root as to why you are self-loathing, overly sarcastic, so picky that you claim there are only one or two women in the last number of years you've wanted to date with any seriousness, etc etc.

 

You're giving more and more "evidence" that is consistent with what Itsallgrand wrote -so much easier to wallow in the negativity. You can make a different choice -it is not as simple/simplistic as changing the way you think and it's not easy, but it's worth it. Having intercourse with a stranger is not the answer, that's clear and that's why you titled your post the way you did.

[MattW]

You can make a different choice -it is not as simple/simplistic as changing the way you think and it's not easy, but it's worth it. Having intercourse with a stranger is not the answer, that's clear and that's why you titled your post the way you did.

 

Eh. So then what IS "the answer"? Honestly, I'm tired of hearing "Meet people, make friends, go places, do things", etc., because that's easier said than done, for me. If I could just do those things, I would have by now. Besides, even if I do all of that, it won't necessarily mean I'll meet someone.

[blueidealist24]

Well, go for the casual sex thing, give it a try, even just fooling around at first (that's what I'd recommend), but don't expect to come out of it TOTALLY emotion-free.. while it probably won't bring up as many emotions as a relationship would, I think there will be some..

[Capricorn3]

I think something in you is addicted and gets a big payoff from staying in the "inbetween world" of no relationship, not giving yourself permission nor being willing to risk that, and no non committed sex either.

 

In short, I think you like being in purgatory. Almost as if, chronic indecision has become your mode you are most comfy in now. And you aren't willing to give that up.

I think this post nailed it. OP: One gets the strong impression that you thrive on pity-parties and in some way "enjoy" it. One can't help but get the feeling that you love the drama and attention of it all.

 

My (and many others) answer to all your threads has always remained the same - therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, but there is always a reason why that won't ever happen. Seeing that professional counseling won't ever happen, then I say a BIG YES, that you go ahead with this casual sex idea of yours and get it over and done with, so that finally you can see what it's all about. Personally, I think you're doing it for all the wrong reasons and wouldn't recommend it (for you), but you seem to have convinced yourself it's the way to go.

 

That said, to be brutally honest, I don't see it EVER happening. I think you'll always come up with another excuse as to WHY it didn't work, or why it didn't happen etc. And then it's all back to square one again. It's all talk.... See a pattern here?

[MattW]

I think this post nailed it. OP: One gets the strong impression that you thrive on pity-parties and in some way "enjoy" it. One can't help but get the feeling that you love the drama and attention of it all.

 

Like I said, I think it goes back to my innate tendencies of self-loathing, to be perfectly honest. I'd be lying if I said I didn't like you guys talking to me and discussing my issues, because I literally have no one else in the world to talk to and get any kind of attention from, but yeah, the discussions tend to loop around because I already arrived at the conclusion that I'm doomed a long time ago. I don't mean to be a pain to you guys, and there is a part of me that does want to get better, but I just refuse to let that happen for myself.

 

My (and many others) answer to all your threads has always remained the same - therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, but there is always a reason why that won't ever happen. Seeing that professional counseling won't ever happen, then I say a BIG YES, that you go ahead with this casual sex idea of yours and get it over and done with, so that finally you can see what it's all about. Personally, I think you're doing it for all the wrong reasons and wouldn't recommend it (for you), but you seem to have convinced yourself it's the way to go.

 

That said, to be brutally honest, I don't see it EVER happening. I think you'll always come up with another excuse as to WHY it didn't work, or why it didn't happen etc. And then it's all back to square one again. It's all talk.... See a pattern here?

 

The thing about therapy is that I believe you have to go into it with an open mind, believing it can work for you, in order to actually get anything from it. I'm already far too biased against the idea of therapy, and thus, I think it would be a completely useless exercise for me, a waste of time and money. Even if I did go through with it, it would probably take me several years, decades maybe, to "get better", and I just don't have that kind of money to invest in it.

 

So yes, I'd agree with you that I'll never "get better". Because of that mindset, there's a part of me that very much wishes I was no longer alive. I don't mean that to sound like I'm contemplating suicide, or anything extreme like that, so please don't take it that way. I just wish I didn't exist anymore. I wish everything would go away, people, the world around me, all the pain and sadness I have, I don't want any of it. I hate being alive, because I hate the way I am, I hate my inability to change, I hate the fact that I refuse to let myself out of my own cycles. I hate that I'm going to spend the next 40+ years being alone, sad, and miserable, hating myself, hating the world, before I die a sad lonely old man.

[Batya33]

Eh. So then what IS "the answer"? Honestly, I'm tired of hearing "Meet people, make friends, go places, do things", etc., because that's easier said than done, for me. If I could just do those things, I would have by now. Besides, even if I do all of that, it won't necessarily mean I'll meet someone.

 

I agree with Capricorn 3 (and blueidealist) entirely-it's not the end of the world if you have a bad casual sex experience (as long as you act in a physically safe way). I am flabbergasted at your continued insistence that if you do X it doesn't guarantee that you'll meet someone. Of course it doesn't! Do you know of many worthwhile things in life that happen to you just because you do the work required? Do you assume you're going to get the good grade/get a raise/not get a bad cold just because you do everything you can to make something happen or not happen? Of course not. No one has suggested that. And no one has suggested that doing the work/putting in the effort is easy. It sure as heck wasn't for me. It's still not easy. But it's worth it. I can't imagine the alternative you're suggesting is worth it. In any way. But sure, go have intercourse with a stranger, have some fun if you can, and hope you don't get sick. And I don't mean that with even a hint of sarcasm.

 

But I'll end this round and round in circles discussion by chiming in that you should re-read Capricorn's post (that conveniently references Itsallgrand's post).

 

Oh I guess one more thing that popped into my mind. My 4 year old and I have been reading the 1930 children's book "The Little Engine That Could". It's the original edition with an inspiring message by the then governor. See if you can read it online or at the library, even better. It's a quick read. We've read it 6 times by now and my 4-year old seems to be absorbing the message in the story already. Since you're 20 years older I think you'll get it the first time and perhaps it might even resonate with you.

 

That is all. Good luck.

[MattW]

I am flabbergasted at your continued insistence that if you do X it doesn't guarantee that you'll meet someone. Of course it doesn't! Do you know of many worthwhile things in life that happen to you just because you do the work required? Do you assume you're going to get the good grade/get a raise/not get a bad cold just because you do everything you can to make something happen or not happen? Of course not. No one has suggested that. And no one has suggested that doing the work/putting in the effort is easy. It sure as heck wasn't for me. It's still not easy. But it's worth it. I can't imagine the alternative you're suggesting is worth it.

 

All I'm saying is, it's hard to put work and effort into something when there's no good reason to believe I can get what I want in the end. Things like getting a good grade or getting a promotion are more tangible; you can't guarantee them, of course, but they're more specific, and it's easy to maximize your chances of getting them by doing really specific things. Finding a "romantic" partner, however, is much more open-ended, and until you find a person that you actually like, you have nothing specific and tangible to actually work towards. I feel like I can really do is twiddle my thumbs for the next few years until the next girl comes along, and I can try (most likely unsuccessfully) to pursue her, then go back to twiddling my thumbs for several more years when she says no, too.

 

And again, what does "doing the work" mean, anyway? Like I said, it always seems to be "Go places, do things, meet people, be an interesting person", and again, it's easy to say those things, but those are all concepts that are pretty much lost on me. You might as well be speaking a foreign language when you tell me to do those things.

 

As for everything else, I think my previous post summed up pretty well how I feel about what Capricorn said.