Do the 50/50 of ''who pays on the date ever work out''?

[Coily]

Manners, tact, and grace are never weak.

 

Think James Bond, not Ned Flanders.

 

I agree, I'm not talking door mat on my part (I have super old fashioned manners think early 1900s ) ; but I have been surprised by the cringe factor a lot of women display toward me in those habits.

 

Back on topic; The whole underlying topic of money in a relationship is kind of interesting, for example I like that fact that women want to split some of the burden in dating. It reflects good money sense and the willingness to not just sit back and get a free ride; which to me is a bad sign of thing to come.

[90_hour_sleep]

It's called going on a first date. making a good impression. you know, all that jazz.

Bottom line, if you want to be treated like a delicate little flower, you ain't getting the girl. sorry if it sounds wrong to say that, but you can't change

the laws of attraction--

 

no...you can't change the laws of attraction. you also can't have them cater to your own design. if you embody a mentality of scarcity (see below quote), that's exactly what you will continue to attract in to your life. you're searching for people who you've already pegged as lacking. i suppose there's some solace to be had in that you've always got a hand in this. you're in control to a certain extent. you can't really 'blame' an entire generation of men for your view of the world. that's your view. own it. it's all you see because it's what you've chosen to see.

 

Yes, there are but in this day and age, more men than not are living off their parents, playing videogames until the wee hours,

hanging with their boys although they and their boys are actually 40 something year old men. They only push the revolving door

hard enough to squeeze through. don't look behind them. Run into the elevator first like a 4 year old little girl. Just some examples

of "today's men"...lol

[journeynow]

you can't really 'blame' an entire generation of men for your view of the world. that's your view..

 

Well said, and true.

[Angler]

I agree, I'm not talking door mat on my part (I have super old fashioned manners think early 1900s ) ; but I have been surprised by the cringe factor a lot of women display toward me in those habits.

 

What kind of manners are we talking about here? I've never experienced a negative reaction to my manners.

[FathomFear]

I agree, I'm not talking door mat on my part (I have super old fashioned manners think early 1900s ) ; but I have been surprised by the cringe factor a lot of women display toward me in those habits.

 

The thing is, I've seen first-hand many straight guys being "nice" or "polite" in a very targeted manner to women, and it often is cringe-worthy. It's ends up being that way because it can easily come accross as condescending. It gives off the same vibe as an adult who's being very delicate towards a young child. It has that whole "I'm patting you on the head" vibe to it.

 

I think this is best avoided by focusing on being a polite person in general. eg, opening doors for all people vs. tripping over yourself just to open doors for women only. When kindness is given out in a discriminate manner it just doesn't seem genuine. ie, you're doing it to impress vs. doing it because you genuinely would do it even if there weren't a reward.

[kitty1223]

no...you can't change the laws of attraction. you also can't have them cater to your own design. if you embody a mentality of scarcity (see below quote), that's exactly what you will continue to attract in to your life. you're searching for people who you've already pegged as lacking. i suppose there's some solace to be had in that you've always got a hand in this. you're in control to a certain extent. you can't really 'blame' an entire generation of men for your view of the world. that's your view. own it. it's all you see because it's what you've chosen to see.

 

It is my view! We all have a view, don't we? But, if you are honest with yourself, and have experienced enough variety in terms of dating/relationships you know this is not merely one 33 year old's narrow-minded view of what's going on in today's world. Yes, there are great men out there. Generous. Chivalrous. Just saying they are the exception as opposed to being the rule. And it's too bad.

 

I attract all types, and I've dealt with cheap, broke, etc. doing well with the old-fashioned type, atm...

 

good thread!

[Coily]

What kind of manners are we talking about here? I've never experienced a negative reaction to my manners.

 

Beyond the door holding, standing when women enter or leave the room or table (if at a restaurant only with women eating at the same table), I use calling cards, holding chairs for them (any and all close at hand), tipping the hat or bowing slightly without, walking on the street side of sidewalk, offering a hand or arm for women getting in or out of cars.

 

Maybe I know too many feminists.

[mhowe]

Beyond the door holding, standing when women enter or leave the room or table (if at a restaurant only with women eating at the same table), I use calling cards, holding chairs for them (any and all close at hand), tipping the hat or bowing slightly without, walking on the street side of sidewalk, offering a hand or arm for women getting in or out of cars.

 

Maybe I know too many feminists.

 

Calling cards, really! That is so cool!!! I've read about them, but never seen them. Alas ---

[Godel]

To be honest, I don't view people through the lens of evolutionary theory. We're not in caves. I'm not going to treat someone in a special manner under the guise of them being more "biologically valuable". And it's not really hard to live this way either. People resort to old conventions out of habit more than anything else.

 

This is way off topic.

 

I don't think we can ever fully escape instinctive imperatives, as much as we may want to. I'm not sure what goes through a sparrows mind in the winter, but for all I know, flying south for the winter just seems like a good idea to him.

[90_hour_sleep]

It is my view! We all have a view, don't we? But, if you are honest with yourself, and have experienced enough variety in terms of dating/relationships you know this is not merely one 33 year old's narrow-minded view of what's going on in today's world.

 

is it honesty? or is it a mental filter (based on some choice experience...which is no doubt very real) which has created barriers to actually seeing the good men for what they are?

 

Yes, there are great men out there. Generous. Chivalrous. Just saying they are the exception as opposed to being the rule. And it's too bad.

 

this is a lot like saying the planet is occupied predominantly by less than human humans. that for the most part, most of us aren't worthy of love or attention because we're flawed in the eyes of others. i know...it's a bit of a leap...but if you continue with your ''exception to rather than the rule'' line of thought, that's where it ends up. some people are good, honest, decent, shining examples of humanity, worthy of all the good things...but they're like needles in a giant haystack.

 

i disagree. you see what you have chosen to see. you have your filters on. this is great for protecting yourself from major harm, but it also prevents you from seeing the whole picture. it's like trying to numb pain. when you numb pain, you numb all the good stuff right along with it. when you embody scarcity...scarcity is what you get.

 

I attract all types, and I've dealt with cheap, broke, etc. doing well with the old-fashioned type, atm...

 

but in the end...we all stick with what works for us...until it becomes clear that it's no longer working.

[Angler]

Beyond the door holding, standing when women enter or leave the room or table (if at a restaurant only with women eating at the same table), I use calling cards, holding chairs for them (any and all close at hand), tipping the hat or bowing slightly without, walking on the street side of sidewalk, offering a hand or arm for women getting in or out of cars.

 

Maybe I know too many feminists.

 

It's not a matter of feminism. Feminists still appreciate being treated like a lady by a gentleman with manners, even old school manners.

 

Now, there is a rogue splinter cell of crazed femme-extremists who would be offended by your actions, but I don't think that's the case either.

 

If you're getting cringes, it's likely in the execution and delivery, not the manners themselves.

[SarahRose]

Beyond the door holding, standing when women enter or leave the room or table (if at a restaurant only with women eating at the same table), I use calling cards, holding chairs for them (any and all close at hand), tipping the hat or bowing slightly without, walking on the street side of sidewalk, offering a hand or arm for women getting in or out of cars.

 

Maybe I know too many feminists.

 

maybe too many woman with bad manners too lol

too much jersey shore and other nonsense people are copying these days

 

keep doing what you do.

there is hope for civilization and humanity if each person contributes even just a bit.

[90_hour_sleep]

there is hope for civilization and humanity if each person contributes even just a bit.

 

truer words were never spoken...

[Batya33]

Yeah... what's the point of dating a guy that doesn't want to put an impression? That's the reason we take about an 1 hr to get dressed up. In a way we're impressing him too.

 

Guy not impressing us is similar to if I were to go all my way dressing up sloppy and poorly.

 

I'm not comfortable with that mindset "my work is to look nice so you have to compensate me for that work". I dressed nicely/looked nice for me and because I thought it was the right thing to do when a man asked me out.

Most of the men I dated were very traditional. I preferred taking turns once we'd gone out a few times and I typically offered to chip in/pay my share at least by the second date. My husband likes to "pay" on date nights even though, for practical purposes, it's "our" money. Works for us.

[journeynow]

there is hope for civilization and humanity if each person contributes even just a bit.

This would make a great bumper sticker!

[mhowe]

Agree w/ Batya (again!). And I don't expect any to "impress" me --- I want to meet the genuine article.

[Coily]

It's not a matter of feminism. Feminists still appreciate being treated like a lady by a gentleman with manners, even old school manners.

 

Now, there is a rogue splinter cell of crazed femme-extremists who would be offended by your actions, but I don't think that's the case either.

 

If you're getting cringes, it's likely in the execution and delivery, not the manners themselves.

 

I tend to find it is women watching from afar who cringe, maybe I'm just too much of a culture shock. When most people are so obsessed with "Me, myself and I" or their date only, I stick out.

 

And yes Calling Cards, they really help me break the ice with women and honestly helps me with being shy.

[Blue Spiral]

Yes, there are but in this day and age, more men than not are living off their parents, playing videogames until the wee hours,

hanging with their boys although they and their boys are actually 40 something year old men. They only push the revolving door

hard enough to squeeze through. don't look behind them. Run into the elevator first like a 4 year old little girl. Just some examples

of "today's men"...lol

 

Playing video games sounds a lot more fun to me than paying for a bunch of meals for a woman I barely even know. I can't say I've ever done the latter, but I'm here to testify that the former is a blast.

 

I think that all people should treat each other well. But, when the genders started moving towards equality, that means that certain special privileges should get thrown out the window. You have to take the bad with the good. Obviously, a significant portion of women still want those privileges, and a significant portion of men are more than happy to provide them for competitive-advantage purposes.

 

The reason modern men don't seem to be "growing up" is because we've seen that it doesn't usually pay off. Our fathers, uncles, etc. never found much success in a changing economy, they got ripped off in divorce proceedings, they got stuck in unsatisfying marriages, etc. It's just a lot of hassle that we don't need. Most of us have done all the important parts of growing up, but we aren't doing the "extras," like marriage and kids and basically paying women to let us entertain them. Sad to say, but working hard never got my father anywhere. I'd rather take a low-effort, low-stress job and focus on the things in life that I enjoy, as opposed to trying to earn money to impress women that will take the money away from me if things don't work out.

 

Today's "man that grew up and has his life together" is tomorrow's "guy that got kicked out of his own home and won't be allowed to see his kids because of a fake violence complaint". My lifestyle may be low-reward, but it's low-risk, as well.

[Angler]

That's a pretty bleak outlook.

[mhowe]

That's a pretty bleak outlook.

 

You beat me to that thought -- I was going to say:

 

Dude -- dreams/goals in life are not supposed to be --- low risk, low return. Aim high....even if you miss by a little, you aren't on the ground floor.

[Blue Spiral]

That's a pretty bleak outlook.

 

I think it's a reasonable one, given the circumstances--and a less materialistic/more fulfilling one, as well. I'm doing what I enjoy, and I'm not trying to get something I didn't really want in the first place. (Sex, yes, the rest of it, not so much.)

[mhowe]

Well -- there is another saying;

 

When in doubt, lower your standards.

 

As long as you are happy Blue -- that is what counts.

[guynextdoor]

I don't think Blue is lowering his standards, he probably seen enough and experience enough to not play the traditional role. Nothing wrong with that and like you said as long as he's happy.

[FathomFear]

It's not a matter of feminism. Feminists still appreciate being treated like a lady by a gentleman with manners, even old school manners.

 

Typically speaking, a real feminist will say that she appreciates being treated like a "person". Not a "lady".

 

I can honestly say that I don't treat men and women differently on a day to day basis. I don't approach them with different manners. I'd say that would be the ideal approach, but that's just me.

[Angler]

Typically speaking, a real feminist will say that she appreciates being treated like a "person". Not a "lady".

 

I can honestly say that I don't treat men and women differently on a day to day basis. I don't approach them with different manners. I'd say that would be the ideal approach, but that's just me.

 

It's a matter of nomenclature really, as I have two sets of manners.

 

One for a girl I am dating (lady manners), and another for everybody else (people in general manners).

 

The difference being things like opening car doors, pulling out chairs, walking on the street side of the sidewalk, etc.