How Did You Know That Someone Genuinely Loved You?

[Silverbirch]

I've had a few relationships, and in most, if not all, the men used to tell me they loved me, and in some cases would do very romantic things. Most of my relationships were long-term. After those relationships ended, things there said or happened, and I realised that none of those men ever genuinely loved me. In all of those relationships, those men did stand to benefit financially from being with me - not to say that I love lots of money, but they still did benefit from that at least and other things in some cases. I'm not saying that I was a martyr who went without everything for the sake of my relationships. I just don't want to keep choosing people who don't love me.

 

With my last ex, 3 weeks before he dumped me, he gave me a Valentine's Day card which said: "Never doubt my love for you. You are the sweetest girl I've ever known." There was no big blow-up before the breakup. There were other women on the scene, and he told me he wasn't in love with me and hadn't been for a long time. When I asked about the card, he said, "There, that's proof I was trying."

 

My problem these days is that I have so little confidence in my own judgement. I have a lot of anger towards myself. I feel stupid for not realising that I never really meant anything much to these men. I feel like I must have missed something very fundamental in understanding how relationships work.

 

I work in a "caring profession". Last night a colleague was telling me about a woman who works our line of work which was a reminder of a lot of things. He was saying that there are people who see a lot of us as easy targets to be exploited. The woman he was discussing had been charmed by a very successful man, married this woman and had her care for her severely disabled son. Over a period of time, it became very difficult for her to leave that relationship, but finally she has. I think it's possible that only happened because of the support of my colleague and his wife who have helped her in every way. The husband of this woman who was exploited has now been diagnosed by professionals as a psychopath.

 

I don't want to keep choosing people who don't genuinely love me. I have somebody in my life today who tells me he loves me, but I'm a different person these days. I'm much more cautious.

 

Was anyone here in similar situations who came to understand what they were doing to attract people into their lives who could only eventually hurt them. What was different when you met someone who was genuine. Thanks in advance if anyone can answer this question.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

There are a lot of men and women who throw out the "I love you" words when they are really only in the infatuation stage...or they say it without meaning it in order to keep the relationship going until they are ready to terminate it.

 

Kind, genuine people often tend to attract the users. I look at a lot of couples and I often see an imbalance...one person is kind and considerate while the other is domineering, bossy and controlling...and I often see the kind, considerate one fawning all over the bossy, obnoxious one. I too have been guilty of falling for men who turned out to be arrogant and selfish. I was attracted to intellectual men with my level of education who were in a similar line of work...but they also seemed to have the same nasty character traits that overshadowed the positives. Now I am much more cautious and look beyond their intelligence to see if that intelligence made them think they are just the cat's meow.

[BrokenOverYou]

Love isn't what you say it's what you do. Alot of people throw those words around when they don't know the meaning.

I was with my ex for a year and although she told me she loved I never honestly believed her, her words said she was in love her actions said she wasn't. There was only one time during the relationship when she said and my stomach did a little flip, I believed it that once, it was an incredible feeling.

 

But it's true that love is in your actions not your words.

[Silverbirch]

Thank you Crazyaboutdogs,

I have been one of those people who "fawns" over the person I love. My last ex was a professional man, and I would say he was defiinitely above me intellectually. It took me a while to see that he was domineering - something which was a real problem in his relationships with most people, especially his family. He was also very charming, and I guess my ego played a bit part in my involvement with him - all those positive strokes in the beginning.

 

I think that I have wanted love and to be loved so badly that I turned a blind eye to so much.

 

It is a real problem for me that I seem to be attracted to men who have very "strong" personalities.

[Silverbirch]

Love isn't what you say it's what you do. Alot of people throw those words around when they don't know the meaning.

I was with my ex for a year and although she told me she loved I never honestly believed her, her words said she was in love her actions said she wasn't. There was only one time during the relationship when she said and my stomach did a little flip, I believed it that once, it was an incredible feeling.

 

But it's true that love is in your actions not your words.

 

Thanks BrokenOverYou. As I mentioned in my previous posting, I have been so quick to believe those words because I wanted to. I went in too quickly, and it seems that mostly it has been when I have invested myself with the other person that I have begun to see a lot more of who and what they really are, and then it is denial, denial, denial.

[Silverbirch]

I don't know if either of you can relate to this, and am wondering if I should start another thread on "Caring Professionals and Relationships".

 

Basically, I think that a good part of my issues come from the fact that I grew up feeling a lot of responsibility to be a carer, and that my identity and self-esteem came from that role. My mother has been sick since I was 11 years old. At that time, she was pregnant and she became even more unwell after the baby was born due to her own mother dyingn suddenly in an accident. It wasn't found out for quite a number of years later that my mother has an inherited immune disorder as does a distant cousin. She was in remission from the age of 5 to her 30's. Quite remarkably, she is still alive now at age 75 although she has almost died several times.

 

I'm sure people meant well, but I was constantly told by family and friends that I needed to take good care of my mother. I had an older sister who was sent to my grandmothers every weekend. My next sister was a couple of years younger, and then there was the baby. As a teenager, I used to babysit for a neighbour - they had 6 kids (an always a baby to nurse). I decided from early teens that I wanted to be a nurse, and have mostly remained in related jobs. In fact, for a few years when I left this work, I never felt the same job satisfaction that I got from nursing. I do get a lot of personal satisfaction from the work, but how it has carried over into my private life, is something I need to really be mindful of and not keep making the same mistakes.

 

Man I am with at present is a lot more self-sufficient and less demanding than the others, but it is something about myself I need to constantly watch and make time my friend.

 

Can any other "carers" relate to any of this. Thanks.

[lalalollipops]

People throw the word around alot, so all you can do is look at actions.

It's the safe way. Don't believe words. Words are cheap afterall.

[90_hour_sleep]

silver...

 

what does love mean to you?

[Silverbirch]

I have to think really hard about that 90. Have to go to work now but will post late tonight. Thanks.

[Fudgie]

Silverbirch,

 

I am a "carer" myself. I know how you feel. I tend to dote, dote, dote. I do think I have been largely lucky, in that men I have been with for the long-term did care about and aside from a few horror stories from my dating in high school, I am remarkably unscathed.

 

I think usually to find out if someone "truly" loves you, it takes time. Words are just words. in order to really know it, the person has to match up their ACTIONS with those words, and for the long-term too. Just doing a couple of your chores to please you and saying "I love you" is very nice but it may not mean that the guy truly loves you.

 

I'll tell you my story. My boyfriend and I got together a while ago but we were friends beforehand. He really stuck by my side through a lot of crap...mostly listening to me cry for hours and giving me sage advice. I met him when I was 15 and I was getting over my sociopathic first love and for a year, that man was ALL I COULD TALK ABOUT at the time. N (my current boyfriend now) was just my friend and was so patient and helped me through it, talking to me everyday. He then helped me more through the years, seeing me go through the breakups of a total of THREE relationships (and then he had one himself and I talked him through the hard times), numerous meltdowns over certain major lifestressors, me falling into depression after a medication mishap, me losing my virginity, me having doubts about everything...I mean god. I called him up so many times in tears over the years...it was really messed up. I'm sure I sounded like a psycho woman. But it never mattered, he stayed my friend and always listened.

 

Now that we are together, this winter has been rough for me. I have been very stressed with a certain project, have a dying relative, and several serious events going on at home and with a certain relative (not the dying one). Our sex life dwindled down to about once a week during one point because of how horrible I was feeling (it is fine now again). But still, N never left or got mad at me or anything, even when I was upset and acting a little distant. He just was there and that was all I needed.

 

But one of the most defining moments for me was when I told him how when I move out from home, I want to see a therapist, over the long-term, to help me with the issues at home and whatnot. Insurance will pay for unlimited sessions but the co-pay is a little high. He told me that he would be happy to help me pay for the co-pays I need each month for me to go see the therapist. I mean, his hard-earned money from his paycheck, all to help pay the co-pays, even when it doesn't really benefit him at all, just me.

 

That, coupled by the years he has spent listening to me and helping me, sticking it out for longer than anyone else, that's when I really knew that he really cared for me and my best interests. I am a lucky girl!

[Crazyaboutdogs]

I am also a "carer" in the sense that if someone is in distress I will be there helping out...do what needs to be done, provide a listening ear etc. Lots of people, not just romantically speaking, see that there is someone who is "the rock" and then they take advantage. However, they don't care that "the rock" needs warmth, caring and understanding as well. The expectation is that "the rock" is so solid that she/he is completely and totally self-reliant...so when the rock needs help, the ones who the rock continuously helped turn away and can't be bothered. I have ended "friendships" because I was expected to be their rock but they were not willing to be mine in my hour of need.

[lalalollipops]

Gosh girl.

Marry him.

 

 

Though you probably will in 2 and half years or so.

 

He seems like a really sweet and decent guy.

It's really hard to find those kind of guys these days!

[mhowe]

Agree w/ other posters -- it is their actions, as well as their words.

 

My bf would do little things during the "courtship" --- take my mom out to dinner for her bday; bring in the trash barrells when he passed by my house; built an outside shower stall (okay, that wasn't so little).

 

And honestly, it is in the way they look at you. To this day, almost 3 yrs together, his face lights up when I walk in the room. Makes me smile just to think about it.

[Silverbirch]

Hey thanks everyone,

90, about your question about what love is to me - I think there are different types of love - the love I have for my son is completely unconditional. Even then, if my son behaved in a way towards me which was disrespectful and unkind, I wouldn't want to live with him. I wouldn't keep putting myself in situations where I would be hurt. At the same time, I would stand by him through anything in the world. My love for him isn't dependent on money or him being successful. I have and continuw to feel love for many people - not just people I have been in sexual relationships with.

 

Probably the difference for me in relationships with men is that when they have ended, I've been very badly hurt, and I am not bonded in the same way I am to my son. I have had to go through a type of detachment from them which has been painful. I've never wished ill of any of them but I no longer "feel" love for them as I had. I have however continued to treat them respectfully even though that has mostly been through having nothing or little to do with them. In time, I no longer have wanted to be with them though that has been like an awful withdrawal.

 

I think I know more of what love is not. Love isn't about using people for money or to better oneself socially. Love doesn't go out the window as soon a younger/ more attractive/richer person comes along or that person has served "their use".

 

These are just my thoughts and maybe proof I have missed something fundamental about love.

 

PS Fudgie and Mhowe, I think you should marry those men if the opportunity arises.

[Fudgie]

Gosh girl.

Marry him.

 

Lol, yeah he's a great, rare sort of guy. My therapist told me (who has seen me for years) how she is amazed he stuck by me through all these years and through so much crap and TMI. He even cooks for me from time to time and cleans up my messes (I am a SLOB). Lol, I want to be a little older when I get married so I can get my schooling done and career set and all but I def intend to stay with him for the long-term. Luckily, he feels the same way. There is no rush. We are just enjoying having fun together while in a LTR.

 

 

Silverbirch,

 

I think it is definitely important to separate out what loves means to you in terms of different relationships. Obviously, for most, loving your child is unconditional. However, I don't necessarily think that should be true for relationships. Obviously, I will love my boyfriend even if he gained/lost a lot of weight, lost his hair, made mistakes, etc. I, however, will begin to stop loving him if he started to cheat on me behind my back, abuse me, emotionally neglect me on purpose (not because of difficulties in his life) or allowed drug/alcohol abuse to erode our lives together and would not seek help for that if offered. I used to believe in 100% unconditional love for my romantic partners but I don't really believe that anymore. I think it's okay to have "limits" to your love and say that there are definite dealbreakers that would make you walk away ASAP.

 

Love is about putting your partner's needs on the same level as your own. Same level. Not higher, not lower. Love takes time to feel and to prove too.

 

Love is about growing together as people, as a couple. My boyfriend has told me "I won't tell you to 'stay as you are, you are perfect/fine as you are' because you should never stop growing and changing."

 

Love is about wanting to experience beautiful things in life with your partner because having your partner by your side makes those things MORE beautiful. I don't think I really understood this'felt this until I was with my last ex, and now I feel it with my boyfriend. It's a feeling I find very hard to explain. You want to have that person with you to have experiences, not so much because you want their companionship or NEED them there in order to enjoy anything, but because you truly WANT to share your life with them, share what you see with them.

 

Love is about wanting to contribute to your partner's development as a person (and this happens even when you're older) and wanting to enrich their lives as they enrich yours.

 

Love is about pushing a person to be the best person that they can be, to do what is right for them, even if it's not always right for you. My boyfriend's ex (his only gf before me) was a Catholic and wanted to go to this private catholic high school that was farther away. He didn't want her to go so far away because then they wouldn't be able to see each other as much so he discouraged her. She ended up going but he later told me (years ago) that he felt bad about it, because it WAS best for her to go to that school and he should have encouraged her to go, even if it wasn't in his best interests. He shouldn't have tried to hold her back. I am planning on staying in my homecity after college but if I needed to go out for grad school in order to get my career, I know he'd support me, even if it meant us being LD for a bit longer or him following me out. I truly know he would support me 100%.

[Silverbirch]

Sounds lovely Fudgie.

 

I think in the past at least, I have blurred ideas about loyalty versus when to walk/run. When behaviour has not been loving or at least very self-serving, I have analysed and always making excuses, trying to understand that person (usually in a positive light). This has always eventually worked out badly.

 

Man I am with at present has said to me that he wouldn't want me to let him walk all over me, that it's to do with respecting myself and that he wouldn't let me take advantage of him either. Still, it's early days still getting to know each other. One thing about him which is different to my exes is that as far as I know, he is on good terms with his exes. There is one from many years back who is now married with children and very occasionally they have lunch together (he knows her husband too now) although he says to me that they have really nothing in common these days. For a long time, it was a sport they were both involved with. I don't feel the mistrust I felt with my ex towards a female friend he had who it did turn out to be more than friendship with. Current man also has been very kind to second child of his ex-wife (this child is not his). I guess to me, that sort of thing suggests that a person is capable of what to me is genuine love and respect - especially the way he has treated that child.

[Fudgie]

Silverbirch,

 

He sounds like a fine man thus far. IT's nice that he treats the 2nd child of his ex-wife nicely, even when it's not his. And contrary to what some may say, it is good that he is okay terms with his exes. And you know, that can be true even for people who are NC with their exes: if they are like "Well, it didn't work out. I don't wish him any harm or anything but I think it's best that we go our separate ways and not talk." Even that is A-Okay in my book. It is a red flag to me when someone (man or women) has EVERY ex be "psycho" or "crazy" and blame them for EVERYTHING.

 

Do your best not to make excuses for bad behaviours. Lists help too. Think about what specific behaviours are NOT okay in your book, and do not tolerate them. At the very least, always stand up for yourself when you feel disrespected or anything like that. Love ultimately means nothing when one partner is willing to undergo bad treatment to stay with that person. That's not love and ultimately, you will not be happy. It's okay, healthy, normal, and GOOD to stand up for yourself and if you need to, run.

[Silverbirch]

Hi Fudgie,

Especially with my most recent ex, his ex-wife absolutely HATES him. I believed all sorts of excuses for this which were nothing to do with him. Now I see why she feels this way towards him. She was with him 26 years and he exploited her financially. I know that I did used to feel uncomfortable in the way he spoke about her, and had raised this with him. I could tell he never actually missed "Her", but he has never gotten over losing the life-style he had with her, and that was largely due to "her" money which she took with her when she left.

 

Current man on the other hand has said that he feels bad for his ex-wife that she has ended up in such an impoverished life, that no matter what her faults may have been, she has never deserved to end up as she is. (She met someone else and remarried within 3 years of them separating, but it didn't work out and second husband treated her very badly). He says he doesn't want to be in contact with her though as it would concern him that she could interpret that as him wanting relationship contact with her which he says he most definitely doesn't want.

 

The idea of lists makes sense. There would be a couple of things about him I'm not too certain how I feel about, but I would say more I like about him than I don't. He seems to have a much stronger sense of self (different to selfishness) than the other men I've known. He's also seems aware of his faults and has told me about ones I haven't known about or been certain about - ie he has told me he can be arrogant and selfish, that his "sovereignty rules", that he finds it difficult to make plans. Usually though after he has told me such things, he will behave in a way which is quite opposite. He is the worst grump when he is sick. Unlike previous relationships, when he is sick, I might do a few things I can to help as a friend, then I leave him alone to rest and recover. By his own account, when he is sick, it's best for him not to be around other people. He's very independent and active, always on the go, and he doesn't cope well with being bed-ridden or physically constrained. He seems to have a MUCH stronger work ethic than any of the other men I've known.

[Fudgie]

I've been starting to think that while it is good for a man to have good traits, it may be even more important for a man to have self-insight and self-awareness. I think I am starting to value that even more than just good traits. I'm glad to hear that your guy has self-insight into who he is, his sense of self, and his faults.

 

Nobody is perfect. A guy who has many good traits but no self-insight is unlikely to change or at least re-evaluate his character when problems arise. A man with lots of self-insight and resolve to change for the better is the one who can develop and grow as a person.

[Silverbirch]

Fudgie, he was on his own for MANY years and says this enabled him to know and understand himself. He said he had more or less expected that he was going to be on his own for the rest of his life and was very surprised that I did come into his life and that we got together.

 

I'm not sure that he has a lot if any resolve to change though - not consciously. His attitude is more like: "This is how I am." Having said that though, I have seen some pretty major changes with some things and that hasn't been through my badgering or any type of manipulation. It used to worry me a bit that he seemed such a loner and that he needed a lot of space. Over the last few months, he started telling me that he has become used to having me around, that he much prefers being with me than without me.

 

There are also a couple of "differences" which I certainly wouldn't describe as faults, but definitely things to be aware of. He comes from an engineering background whereas my background is in arts. He tends to see things in more black and white ways than I do. He's much more pragmatic. He only watches documentaries with the exception of "Terminator" being the only movie he likes. BLAH He definitely comes accross as a LOT less emotional than I am. Maybe because of my background with work, I thought the mathematical and scientific ways of his raised red flags of an Aspergers type personality, but there have since been things he has said and done which a person with Asperger's wouldn't do.

 

Despite this though, he's vegetarian because he hates the thought of animals suffering so he can eat them. Also, he found incidentally that the best horse handlers we both know are also vegetarian and he believes most animals can smell this about us. He is brilliant with animals, especially horses and dogs. There are quite a few things about him like this I really LOVE.

[Batya33]

Why aren't those differences positive - doesn't it make things more interesting -doesn't it help you two complement each other? One of my friends said to me the other day in a similar context "well you don't marry yourself, right?"

[Fudgie]

I think you're just going to have to wait and see to see if he has that resolve. Being on his own a lot for so long, well, it makes people "set in their ways". My last ex didn't date anyone for over a decade before me and he had a lot of the "loner" tendencies, yep. He still had them through our relationship but he bended in other ways for me and that was fine. Just make sure that he's okay with admitting his faults and is willing to change if he needs to.

 

My brother has Asperger's. Being mathematical and scientific doesn't really indicate anything about the person having Asperger's...it's the lack of social skills and such that are key (not to be confused with wanting to be a loner, that's different). Your guy sounds like my boyfriend and just about every non-Asp man in my family in the sense that they are all really pragmatic, logical, rational, and less emotional than most men I know. I sometimes want to shake my boyfriend because sometimes he doesn't tell me what I want to hear (ie my anxiety being high and wanting "reassurance", which he doesn't always give when the situation doesn't warrant it). But then again, I think being pragmatic overall is a plus, as long as your emotional needs are met. It's nice knowing that you can rely on someone to keep cool and tell you like it is when you yourself are a bit squirrelly.

[Silverbirch]

Fudgie, it was also that he seemed so "logical" that made me wonder if he had Aspergers. He seems to have a lot of insight in relation to people and can "pick up" on the unsaid - something, as you would know, is a trait most, if not all people with Aspergers would struggle with.

 

He also would not reassure me if the situation wouldn't warrant it. He wouldn't ever baby or molly-coddle me (or any other person, including his daughter), and he isn't obviously sentimental or romantic. There is however something about him which makes him seem more authentic. Guess I'll have to just wait and see.

 

PS I hope you don't mind me asking - About the other men in your family with this type of personality - have they had happiness in their relationships?

[Fudgie]

Yeah, he's def not Asperger's if he can "pick up" so well on social cues and non-verbal behaviour. As I said, being logical and a little aloof is not a sign of that. It's just a way to be.

 

My grandfather was this way and from what I understand, he was happy with my grandmother, who doted on him. They were together for over 70 years until his death in his 90s.

 

My father has had happy relationships but his marriage to my mother is not happy one. They have been together for almost 30 years now and they will not divorce. It is not because of his traits though. There are a lot of other things going on. From what I understand, he had many, many happy relationships in the past so I know he's capable of it. Can't comment on my brother since he's Asp and not into girls much anyway.

 

My boyfriend is this way and is happy with me. My last ex was this way. The two "worst" relationships I have been in have been with men who are not this way (very emotional, not logical, let things fly out the window emotionally, etc) I think it's all about what you are comfortable with. I've grown up with men like this...honest communicators, not very macho, but still, very logical, intelligent, not sentimental, and VERY pragmatic, so I am used to it and it makes me happy, even if I want to shake my boyfriend once in a great while, lol.

 

So are you happy with him being this happy? Do you feel satisfied, like you're getting your needs met? Do you think his nature makes you struggle a little with trying to find out if he truly loves you, because he shows it in very different ways?

[Silverbirch]

Well Fudgie, last time I saw him face to face (Friday night - we have both been working since but will see him today), I commented that he was the smiliest and happiest I had ever seen him. He truly did look happy and relaxed though very tired. He said: "I AM the happiest I can recall for a very long time - that's because you are here, and despite what you may think I REALLY do love you."

 

He seems so different to any of the other men I have been with that sometimes I sort of stop in my tracks. Both of us are having to focus a lot of energy into our work (I'm a shift worker to go with it and we both work weekends) and finances, and we don't live close by each other so we can't just pop by each others places the way a lot of people can. We are both feeling inflation, particularly the ridiculous price of fuel here - often $1.70 per litre. Another issue for both of us which I've discussed a fair bit here is that each of us has quite a brood of pets which we can't just leave, and we can't just bundle into the car with us when we visit each other. It's much easier for me to stay at his place than him stay here - he has even more animals than I have and some of his horses are rehabs and need a lot of attention. He's even thinking of putting a webcam in the stable area and being able to check on the horses when he visits me.

 

I think I need more time, mostly to sort myself out. I think it did worry him a little that apart from when my son's father and I divorced (he is gay but we are on good terms), I haven't had a lot of time out of relationships. This wasn't planned - it's just how it worked out. I also knew him initially as an acquaintance and then as a friend for some time before becoming involved with him. I would say that part of my probs could be related to not having a lot of time between relationships, but having said that, I am CERTAIN he is NOT a rebound.

 

Having all my needs met? I'm not certain, but I'm sure a lot of my needs would have to be met by me outside of relationships and also through other friendships. I meet with a group of women (mostly) each week for dance, music, lunch and outings. We have a great rapport and a lot of fun, and he is obviously thrilled about this. He also has groups he has been involved with in the past but not so much time for these days due to work and money. He has a pilots license and has known people from local flying club for over 10 years, still sees quite a few even though he isnt flying atm. Also knows people through horses (as do I), but time is a real factor there too for both of us.