Won't live with me until we're married???

[Saffron_]

Rocio - -really? I must be odd then because I do think men while they may not have the right to say whether you hwve an epidursl or water birth do have a right to be present. But again, I must be odd, lol

 

You might think they should have the right to be present at the birth, which btw completely dumbfounds me! But in actual fact they do NOT have that right. Yes, that statement (about men having the right to be present) is what people are taking issue with. Can you imaging a woman in the delivery room being told her childs father would be present whether she liked it or not?! If men had that right, that's what could happen! That would be highly distressing for a woman particularly if her and her partner were broken up or if he was with someone new. And that's not uncommon these days. I find the whole notion kinda offensive.

 

But with regards to the topic at hand, always getting your own way in a relationship ultimately leads to resentment. You've gotta let the other person win now and again, even if it means doing things you really don't wanna do. It's called give and take. Everything seems to be "whether he likes it or not" Personally I'd feel uncomfortable living in a house someone else had bought for me. I imagine that must have been emasculating for him but because of the situation he maybe felt under pressure to go along with it. He's probably feeling pressured to do a lot of things. But on the other hand, he as good as planned this pregnancy as did Lost, so all these wants will soon need to be put aside for the needs of two new little people. Lost, maybe you wanna step up the positive thinking a notch.

[OptomisticGirl]

All I can say is for ME they do have that right as long as the well thing of mommy and baby are not effected - ie, father who will call the mom names during labor as I know one gut did - and others don't have to ag4ee with that. for me personally L will always have the right to be in the delivery room - I only suggusted LS ask him as it very well could be one of the reasons he seems wishy washy. But at the end it can't be about anyone but giving these kids a stable environment - be it with both parents in the same house or living seperatr.

[lostnscared]

Well I did talk to my boyfriend again this afternoon and we both are feeling as if maybe it is the distance that has put a damper on our communication. This is probably the first time in several years where we have gone this long apart and have had to rely on the phone and seeing other once every 6-8 weeks as a means of communication. I think that because a lot of decisions are being made over the phone rather than in person, things are getting "lost" in translation. Prior to the pregnancy we had typical minor problems, but nothing like this and only thing that I can think of that has changed it is the fact that we don't see each other anymore and we talk on the phone a few times a week, but that is it.

Petite,

How have I changed my decisions? Though the plan did get derailed because when I moved out here I did not get a job, beyond that I have stuck by the plan we had--obviously there were some things that came up(i.e. finding out I'm having twins when we only expected one baby, my dad offering to buy us a house, my mom offering nanny help, and so on) but I never once "changed" my mind about how things would go. I do think that the communication is concerning, but I really can't see where I have flip-flopped on decisions.

I agree with you about the smoking. And this was something he is suppose to have stopped completely by September when the babies are due--he made a promise to stop and I took his word for it. I don't know what else to do about that, besides making it clear that he cannot smoke around the babies, in the home, or by me.

 

To everyone else:

Thank you for your advice. I have never been in labor before, but just going by friends experience it does seem that it is crucial to have the right support during the experience. Also I think we all do agree that a man def. has a role in the delivery process, but that a woman does have every right to request that a man not be there if he makes her uncomfortable, stresses her out or is not supportive.That being said I am still not sure how I will be delivering these babies--whether it's a homebirth, a "forced" c-section because it is a twin pregnancy, or having to labor at the hospital because my midwife won't deliver at home anymore. So that means I'm NOT very sure what will happen. When I talk to him on Friday--we will hash it all out. I don't know about relationship counseling. Has it really worked for anybody? I do believe that there are communication issues and immaturity, but I also attribute the communication issues to the fact that we went from seeing other 3-4 times a week for the last 6 years, to seeing other every 2-3 months and only talking on the phone a few times week. The immaturity is something that needs to be worked out though.

Hike14,

The aupair is a great suggestion. I never even thought of that. I'm wondering if they run around the same price as the nanny. The nanny my mom found, through a friend, charges $500-600 to come to the home 5 days out of the week, take care of the baby, run errands, clean up, etc. IF the aupair is around the same price point or less expensive then I know my mom would be open to it. Unfortunately I still have not told her that my boyfriend changed his mind. I am going to see what he says this weekend.

OG,

I understand what you are saying about me being controlling up until now, but like I said I am NOT going to exclude him from the entire labor... And 9 months as opposed to 18 years? My boyfriend is very good with children--better than I am. He babysits alot, when he was in highschool he mentored children, and even now will watch children if a relative or friend ask him too. He is good at changing diapers, feeding, putting to sleep, playing, disciplining etc. I am not so good at many of these things--so I'd say that he'll probably if anything have a pretty huge role in their lives, even if he did not have it during the pregnancy.

[lostnscared]

Honestly I did not think that I was always getting my way until you guys had pointed it out, so I did not know that it was leading to resentment or anything because he did not really speak up but a FEW times about it. As for the house--why would I have not accepted the offer? There were a lot of perks offered in my dad doing this because it puts less stress on my boyfriend--he does not have to worry about the typical monthly rent that he would pay at an apartment or the mortgage each month--only thing he'll have to pay for is groceries, utilities, maintance, pampers, formula, baby-stuff-etc--the smaller "stuff", so this would give him a break--instead of working close to 80 hours a week, he could cut his working to 40--instead of having to work at a job that he actually hates at this point, he has THREE months to find a job that may be more satisfactory, and his family can come down whenever they want to, to visit because there are 3 rooms that will be vacant since the babies will be in our room. Now this is oppossed to us staying in Chicago renting an apartment, AND having to pay utilities, food, babystuff, etc, AND not having as much room, and as many perks. We would have to wait in additional 3-4 years to buy a house(which probably wouldn't be as nice as this one or as big). So it made little sense to tell my dad no, when this is a great "gift" that I think would really help a "stressful" situation not be as stressful. Right now he is TIRED. As emasculating as it may feel, I also feel as if it would be allowing him to not have to work as much or as hard as he is right now--and therefore though he may not realize it now, he will GREATLY appreciate this later on. So it wasn't just about me, I also was thinking about him.And yes I do want my girls to live a certain lifestyle(a one similar to mine). He had made a remark earlier in the pregnancy that it must be nice not to have to work because I have parents that are well off enough to help me out. Well now they are helping him out and he doesn't want it?

I guess I just don't get why he would take the "hard" route just for his ego. I think that's selfish too--to purposely put us a position where we would struggle a lot more just so he can feel like a man? And I know some people don't like getting help from family, but that is the way my family USED to be(before the divorce) and that is how I grew up, so I didn't see anything wrong with accepting help. And I DID talk to my boyfriend first--that is what you guys seem to be forgetting. I didn't tell my dad yes without talking to my boyfriend first.

Why doesn't everyone think I pressured him?

Obviously if I did pressure him he would still be on board with the plan.

[Applewhite]

Definitely look into the au-pair thing. It might be cheaper, more full time maybe even more dependable. It would be a live in situation rather than 5 days a week. And the extra space in the house would be well utilized.

[OptomisticGirl]

I realize 9 months is nothing compared to 18 years - I just used it as an example of how even being excluding for a small time can lead to resentment. When will you see each other next?

[Saffron_]

I think his pride and his desire to be the one providing for his family might be an issue. I don't know so I can't say, but while I understand you accepting the offer of the house and the nanny, it might have made him feel less of a man. When I was growing up I wasn't used to accepting help. Maybe he grew up that way too. If the house is a sticking point for him, could you suggest the house and the nanny as a temporary solution until you two find your feet? You could suggest to him that you two stay in the house rent free for maybe a year to 18 months (is it rent free?), giving you both the opportunity to save so that when the time comes you can get a place together and be self sufficient. The house can either be sold or rented. With the added help of a (free) nanny, you could take on some work (after the first few months) as well thus taking the pressure off him and adding to your savings.

 

Lost, you can't say that your bf will greatly appreciate this help later on because you don't know that. A generous offer like that would make me feel so indebted to someone, in a way that whenever they asked something of me I'd feel obliged to do it because in the back of my mind I'd be thinking 'I owe them'. That could lead to a lot of unhappiness if you're not careful. It's different for you because it's your family. A conversation with your bf about what you both want, what's best and how you could both reach a compromise certainly would help. Clearly although he's 'agreed' to the plan, he's not 100% on it, otherwise he wouldn't be wanting to live with his friend. It sounds like he feels really uncomfortable with the idea of living in a house that someone else is paying for. Yes he's be paying utilities etc but in the back of his mind he's be thinking 'her dad's paying for this, not me'. Something in this plan of yours is gonna have to give.

[lostnscared]

I realize 9 months is nothing compared to 18 years - I just used it as an example of how even being excluding for a small time can lead to resentment. When will you see each other next?

 

I am seeing him Friday-Sunday this weekend. And the next time I will see him is in August--a month before the babies are due. There is a chance I MIGHT be able to come to Chicago in July but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to travel during the third trimester.

It's just tricky doing LDR thing because for the last 6 years of our relationship we have been pretty consistent with seeing each other throughout the week. Neither of us are phone people, I hate skype, I don't have a facebook account--which makes it more complicated because that is the only means of communication.

[OptomisticGirl]

Did he make the 'it must be nicr' comment in a sarcastic tone?

[OptomisticGirl]

I completely understand the LDR thing. and it can put a strain on the relationship.

[lostnscared]

His parents had 6 kids--so things were a bit different, he said that as a kid he was quite poor, and now since everyone is much older his parents have more financial leeway, but he isn't used to it, and thinks that I'm spoiled and doesn't like it. The thing is, he has been saving since last year for a house(though when he got laid off last year that took away those savings) and so he has ALWAYS wanted to have a house, we both hate apartments. That is why I didn't understand why he cared how we got it, because at least it is one less thing he had to worry about.

The mortgage is being paid in full by my dad, so that we won't have to pay rent or mortgage each month, but everything else we will have to pay for--so in a sense it still "ours" we are just getting a break. I asked him if maybe we just stay in the house for a couple of years, then sell it and get our own house, and he didn't really respond. I don't know if it's the house that is bothering him or us not being married, or something else... I didn't really think the house was that big of a deal until I got on ENA... I mean none of my friends, etc think that this is the reason he backed down, but I guess could be.

 

I think he hates the idea of the nanny more than the house--he said that it was ridiculous that we are getting a nanny like we are rich something(that were his words) and that he would rather take care of his kids himself. But he won't even be living with me, so I don't want to budge on that. The nanny is only coming 6 hours each day 5 days a week, she is not living with us, and will really on be there so we can get some rest. I just felt as he thinks it will be the way celebrity nannies are--where they take the kids everywhere, tutor them, etc and that is NOT what is happening lol. It's no different then daycare, she just comes to the home. And I've tried to explain that to him, but the word "nanny" just bothers him. There were a few other friends who had something nasty to say to me about it, but no one understands that when I say nanny it is comparable to a babysitter--she just gets groceries, and helps clean up! I just think he is used to a different lifestyle and that it just makes him feel like the kids will be spoiled.

As for me working, I know this sounds really bad, but i honestly don't want to at this point, especially once the babies come. I think that will be stressful. Besides he had agreed early on in the pregnancy that I could be stay at home mom, because he didn't want his kids in daycare. I am going back to school next winter to get my masters anyway, so unless I did a part time job it wouldn't be much of a help. I AM going to work when I get done with school(in a few years) but that is why I said it would take 3-4 years before we would be able to afford a house on our own.

 

So you are saying I should not have accepted the house?

It's too late... I mean I don't know what to do about that. I'm not going to ask my dad or mom for anything else, but I cannot undue the house, so I don't know how to make him feel better about that. He had a chance in the beginning to speak up and he didn't.

[lostnscared]

Did he make the 'it must be nicr' comment in a sarcastic tone?

 

Yeah he did.

[OptomisticGirl]

I thought so. That is how I would say it if it were something I didn't like. I think that might have been your first sign he really wouldn't be on board with it.

[lostnscared]

I thought so. That is how I would say it if it were something I didn't like. I think that might have been your first sign he really wouldn't be on board with it.

 

The thing is I would have understood how he felt if he would have just been honest. I cannot read nonverbal cues over the phone.

 

So it seems like the consensus here is that it's about the house?????? That seems like such a minor detail in the midst of everything that is happening.

 

You guys really think that is why he backed out? But then why wouldn't he have just said "I am uncomfortable living in a house your dad paid for" rather than saying "I am uncomfortable living with you, when we aren't married?"

[Seraphim]

The thing is Lost you and your children need some place to live. What would he like to suggest? A cardboard box on the street corner? I can see he wants to be "his own man" but being your own man does not HAVE to include being dirt poor and have nothing for your kids. I guess he thinks that is more honuorable than accepting a gift. He wont think it is so honourable though when he is busting his back to look after his kids. I think it comes down to two entirely different ways you were both raised and the ideas you both have that are different about child rearing.

 

He is still living under the assumption that kids are months and months away. Well it's not.

[Saffron_]

I'm not saying you shouldn't have accepted the house, I'm just saying some big compromises will need to be made here. He's clearly unhappy which is a problem because one of the best things you can give your kids is two happy parents who love each other and are working in unison. The house is a given now. It's done and that's that. But as for the nanny, since you wont be working, which by the way is a luxury most people don't have, you can compromise on the nanny. I don't mean to offend but it sounds SO spoiled!!! ONLY 6 hours a day 5 days a week??!! Are you kidding me?! Women who work hire a nanny for that amount of time but you wont be working. I know you'll have 2 babies but even so. It's never easy to hear about people who are given so much especially when most women I know HAVE to go back to work after 6 months AND do most of the childcare AND the housework AND buy/rent their own house AND don't have a nanny. If you don't want the hassle of getting groceries and cleaning up, you could hire a cleaner for a few hours a week (not a day) instead and have groceries delivered. This could be paid by you. It'd be a heck of a lot cheaper than a nanny and it'd mean him accepting less help from your family. He'd be providing. A nanny's a luxury not an essential and you're gonna have to give up some of your luxuries if the two of you are gonna live happily together. You'll both have to give up stuff. Moving in and living together isn't easy.

 

What about hiring a doula just for those first few weeks/months after the babies are born?

[FreedomRing]

Yeah a talk is definitely in order for you two...couple questions.

 

- why are you traveling to him? It sounds as if you've been the only one doing the traveling for visits....why is that?

 

- so if you've already told him he can live with his friend, and you are refusing to work, who will then pay for the utilities, groceries, etc in the house you're in? He should definitely contribute to the bills for the babies, but given all the miscommunication thus far, I would start working on that plan rather then assuming that he will foot the bill for all your household expenses, when I'm sure he'll have to fork over his share of expenses in the place with the roomate.

 

Btw - i think it's a TERRIBLE idea to discount couples counseling(although, being a counselor myself, I am a bit biased ) given the countless examples of how often you two miscommunicate. It's great that you have the luxury of receiving financial help from loved ones; you should definitely look into utlitizling this help for the betterment of your relationship as well...

[lostnscared]

The thing is Lost you and your children need some place to live. What would he like to suggest? A cardboard box on the street corner? I can see he wants to be "his own man" but being your own man does not HAVE to include being dirt poor and have nothing for your kids. I guess he thinks that is more honuorable than accepting a gift. He wont think it is so honourable though when he is busting his back to look after his kids. I think it comes down to two entirely different ways you were both raised and the ideas you both have that are different about child rearing.

 

He is still living under the assumption that kids are months and months away. Well it's not.

 

And that is how I feel too. The other alternative would have been, me continuing to live with my mom with the babies--which isn't fair to my mom because she's raised 4 kids and wants her own life--and him living with his friend, and then us getting an "okay" 2 bedroom apartment. It also would have meant that he would have to work just as hard as he is now. He makes decent money, so we wouldn't necessarily struggle, but it would basically be us having barely any money left over at the end of each month. How would we ever be able to save for a house? I think he had a rosy view of us doing it on our own, and struggling together. Because that is how a lot of people inside his extended family with young children are doing it. I do think it was how he was raised. But for me though the idea seems honorable and "cute"(maybe to him????) it just seems silly to do that when we don't have to. Now some of it is my fault, because had I gotten a job right at the beginning of the pregnancy, we would have more savings, and we probably would be able to do a bit better, but unfortunately I was so sick in the beginning of the pregnancy that I could not have worked if I tried.

I don't know what else to do about the house. It's a "done deal" so if that is really why he is backing out, then I'm not sure what would change if I agreed to marriage. If I said "okay let's get married"--we still would live in that house... I'm just not getting it.

[lostnscared]

The nanny was only going to come from 6AM-12:00 in the afternoon. Virtually the REST of the day I would be with both babies. The only reason we have even gotten a nanny is so we can get rest during that timeframe. It wasn't like I was going to be sitting on my butt watching tv, while she tends to the kids. It was going to be so both me and him will be able to REST.

Saffron, he isn't going to be living with me anymore, so why would I compromise on the nanny? I might have been willing to do that before, but now that he has decided to live somewhere else, I am essentially going to be doing MORE of the rearing while he is away. BTW we are only having the nanny the FIRST 6 months--just so I get rest and can develop a schedule. Then my mom has said she will watch the girls while I go to school. This is not something that is going to continue throughout their lives!!!!!!! I realize that a lot of women have to work after having babies, and I've already said on other threads I am VERY grateful of my parents for helping. But none of this is really permanent... And I don't like the fact that I'm being painted as a spoiled brat.

And again, it was already agreed that I would NOT have to work because he wanted me to be a stay at home in the first place--so if it was really about me not working then he wouldn't have said he wanted have said it. Because initially I said "daycare" and he said "no I want one of us to stay at home with the kids".

[Seraphim]

Ok I know he has dreams of being the valiant provider and it is valiant to struggle. However if you do not have to why do it????? I mean I know he watched his parents struggle but it is NOT the same as doing it yourself. He has the opportunity of a LIFETIME that almost NO one gets. He could be saving for his children for the future instead of struggling to make payments etc. He is not seeing the bigger picture. This is an extradordinary opportunity. His children and you and HIM will start life with an advantage very few get. It is a shame he can not see it because of his pride.

 

Even my brother and his wife did not get this opportunity and her father is a millionaire many times over. He paid for their first house but HE was their banker and he said no interest but he wanted HIS money back within FIVE years on an entire house.

[lostnscared]

-He came here in April(that was the week he decided to do the three-day barhopping with his friend). So I am coming up to Chicago this weekend. He works, I don't, so it makes it more difficult for him to get time off, whereas I don't have to worry about that.

-My dad is going to pay for the utilities, etc for June and July, and August. And my boyfriend was "supposed" to pay it for September, October, and November with the savings he has. He did say that even though he'll be living with his friend, he'll still pay utilities, maintence, etc as planned for the house. And no he doesn't have to fork over anything with the roommate, except maybe beers. His roommate moved down here two years ago after a messy divorce--sold his house in Chicago, and used that money to buy his own house out here. His mortgage is paid in full, and he basically only has to pay the same things we will be paying. This guy makes a lot of money as well, so I highly doubt he'll make my boyfriend pay for anything more than beers and smokes.

-My parents did couples counseling and STILL divorced. No one I know that has done couples counseling actually stayed together. That is why I said I don't think it works.

[lostnscared]

I think so he'll have a sob story. LOL. Like I said a few pages back, he believes life is hard and that you struggle to get what you want. Everything in his life has affirmed that. If he all the sudden got things handed to him, then what would he have to whine about? LOL. And that is how I feel too. We can save so MUCH now. Sell the house down the road and get a bigger one OR invest into starting our own business(another thing he wanted), etc, and it's a GREAT opportunity. Instead he wants to do things the hard way. It's one thing, if it was just me and him struggling, but I don't like the idea of bringing that stress into a household with children. Me and him are at the age, where many of our friends and family members are having kids, and I have seen FIRSTHAND what it is like when you have children and you have to worry about bills--it can be trying and put a strain on the relationship as well.

 

Wow, I can't believe her dad made them pay him back--if my dad had poised it that way though, I wonder if my bf would have felt better? IDK.

[OptomisticGirl]

I dont think it makes him a bad guy because he doesnt want a hand out. We are all influenced on how we were raised - LS sees no problem accepring and he does. This is clearly a difference of fundamental values. I was raised like your boyfriend - while its easy for you to see how great an oppurtunity this is (and it is) I couldn't accept it if I were him as well. Some people like to rely on only 5hemselves and what they cam afford. Doesnt make them wrong for not being able to accept it. You and the kids will be living there, the only thing is he wont, so in the end you and the kids aren't suffering. The only one 9ut of it is him. Perhaps suggust you guys take over some of the bills once he gets a job? As saffron has said, if you two are going to work, something has to give.

[lostnscared]

But he is making the CHOICE not to live with us, so if he "struggles" or is left out it is a result of his own choices. And as I said to freedomring, this friend of his isn't poor. This friend also comes from "rich" mommy and daddy, and sold his house in Chicago, bought a bigger house out here, and is working for his brother in law making decent money. My boyfriend will not be struggling in either situation.

 

My bf IS going to take over the bills once he works. But the original plan is that he would NOT have to work for the first 3 months that the babies were here. That is why he is working crazy hours(and has been working crazy hours) SINCE he found out I was pregnant. So that he can have enough savings so that he does not have to work the first three months of the babies life AND pay the utilities, etc during that time. Upon working he will also being paying the SAME bills. My dad is ONLY paying for the first three months, and then he is done FOR GOOD and it is in our hands. My mom is only paying for the nanny, she is paying for the midwife, and her and my bf's parents are getting the things for the babies. AFter that they all are done.

So essentially once September comes we are pretty much on our own, besides the nanny. And by February, the only "hand" out we'll be getting is my mom watching the babies while I'm at school.

I just want to point that out... It will not be a free ride the entire time.

 

Also want to add, that if my dad would have NEVER gotten us the house, than the savings my boyfriend is accumulating would go toward rent and utilties, AND he would have to work during the first three months. With what my dad has done, my boyfriend will NOT have to work at first and can spend time and bond with the babies as well. Another reason--that I'm not quite sure why my boyfriend is upset with the house.

[Seraphim]

I can see he wants to do it himself. I understand and appreciate that but he NEEDS to wrap his head around the fact he is making this decision for more than himself. There are kids he is making this decision for. I understand how he was raised because when I was really little my parents had ZIP and I mean ZIP, my mother even had holes in her shoes and owned one dress kind of poor. As an adult I have not been that bad off but when you are rolling pennies because your child is desperate for medication he may think twice about the opportunity.( I have had to roll pennies and change before for a time when my son was born and it ain't pretty and it is not a comfy feeling as a parent for sure. Wait till he feels like that) I still think he has a golden opportunity.

 

Yeah, my brother's inlaws well they are from communist Europe and suffered a lot after the war and they grew up literally eating dirt just so they were not hungry, and I mean that literally, so they do not give anything for free.