Question for women who have been engaged and/or married...

[Tell Me Why]

Thanks rich. Yeah, I shouldn't have gone over so late, but she was out late. I had gotten the flowers after work and I thought she would have stopped by her place before going out, but she wasn't there. So I came back around 10 and she was home. I'm sure her reaction would have been somewhat different had I gone earlier when the sun was still out.

 

I already apologized to her about coming over so late, when she called me as I stood outside her house. I didn't apologize for the act. I will just let her cool down. The good thing is that she didn't say anything ridiculous like "I never want to see or talk to you again". So for now I'll just stick to NC and hope she calms down and eventually contacts me.

[Tell Me Why]

rich, you say the dance is far from over, why do you feel that way? Right now, I feel like it is over and last night was the final nail in the coffin. After Tuesday, when we both broke down at dinner and she said this was too hard for her, to hang out and always get this emotional and that maybe we shouldn't see each other for a couple weeks, I thought that was the beginning of the end, when she freaked out last night, I just felt like that was it for her. But I really hope not.

[oldenoughtoknow]

It's what I've been saying all along. If she were done with you, she wouldn't be bothering to contact you. She wouldn't be upset when you mention NC. She misses you and wants you back. But she first has to be convinced that you won't hurt her again.

 

The only way for you to do this is by exuding confidence. Your strength will console her. The knowing smile. Always planting in your head that we are back together. Period. She keeps offering you opportunities, but you have to steer the ship. Enjoy each other. No talking about the past anymore. Kiss her instead. Quell her emotional outbursts. She wants to feel safe in your arms again.

 

Last night wasn't a negative at all. At the worst, it will be neutral. I think she'll mull it over and come to the realization that you were coming from a good place. She was just surprised/scared/freaked out by someone being at the door that late. Single women living alone will do that after 10 pm.

 

So don't worry about last night. Keep the course. Don't let her lead, or sway your direction. That will make her feel your confidence. That will demonstrate your conviction. This is going to work...just keep the faith.

[Tell Me Why]

rich, I'm not sure what you do for a living, but you should be a relationship expert!! So after the flowers at the door fiasco on Thursday night, I didn't hear from her Friday and Saturday, like you said, she needed a few days to cool off. Then I get a message from her on Sunday morning saying she wants to talk about the other night...

 

She apologized for reacting the way she did when I showed up. She said it was late and she was just scared and not sure who it was at first. Apparently, after I knocked on the door, she kept asking who it was, but I didn't hear her. Then eventually I shouted that it was me. I guess she was startled because I didn't answer right away, but I didn't hear her! Anyway, she said she knew that I was trying to do something nice but she was just scared and was sorry for reacting that way. I told her I was sorry for coming over so late and that I didn't intend to scare her.

 

She then said she missed me. She said the last two days she was depressed about what had happened last week. I told her I felt the same. She then said she wanted to wipe the slate clean, stop bringing up the past, and just "date" each other and have fun like we used to and see how things go. She said she didn't want to hop right back into a serious relationship and that she wanted to just start over and take things slow and have them be casual.

 

Now, it sort of bummed me out that she just wants to "date" and not be in a serious relationship, but I am thinking, and I'm sure you are thinking the same thing rich, that she does want a relationship but she just needs to trust me again and see that I am confident about making a committment. So I feel like this is a huge opportunity for me! We went on a "date" yesterday, dinner and a movie, and we had a great time and neither of us brought up any negative things from the past! I ended up spending the night, we didn't get intimate or anything, but it was nice to sleep next to her.

 

So I feel happy about all this, but then another side of me is just unsure of where she is coming from. I feel like I really need to show her strength and confidence right now and that eventually she will want to transition back to a relationship, but I just get nervous when she says things like "Maybe we should just date right now".

 

Anyway, I look forward to your thoughts on this rich, since you have been spot on for this entire thread!!

[Batya33]

Her reaction is reasonable- not wanting to be serious - but I would suggest to her that you stay apart completely until she feels like she can be in a serious committed relationship with you again because this "dating" is just going to be confusing, you're going to get even more emotionally attached, and you (and probably she) won't be able to keep things just casual. You can tell her you're willing to see a couples therapist with her (and see what the therapist says about how to proceed).

[oldenoughtoknow]

Great job, TMW! You should be happy right now...Things are going just fine. The only problem I see is that it sounds like you are still letting her lead this reconciliation.

 

The thing about her just wanting to "date" for a while is just a test. Ignore it. The problem is that SHE said she wanted to "wipe the slate clean, stop bringing up the past, and just "date" each other and have fun like we used to and see how things go." This is the stuff I've been telling you and this is what YOU needed to lead her towards. She's still leading and trying to get her "feelings" back, but she won't be able to get those feelings back unless you become the leader. It's gotta happen.

 

So, you're both kind of doing what you're supposed to be doing now (because she lead you in that direction). You need to push for what YOU want - don't always defer to her whims. That won't work. Every once in a while, grab her and kiss her, and then walk away. Hold her close to you, and then walk away again. Hold her hand, and then get distracted by something and let it go. Tease her. You choose the restaurant, you choose the movie (ones that you know she will like, of course). Tell her "I want to take you to X." That subtly takes control. She'll like that. Same concept as the flower and front door episode. Show her what you want, and go after it.

 

And I think that, given where you guys are, you shouldn't spend the night anymore...at least until you're both ready for intimacy. The first time was okay, but doing anymore will project clingy and needy. At the end of your next "date," give her a long kiss and tell her you're going home. If she asks why, tell her it's because you guys are casually dating, and it's too frustrating to lay next to her all night long. That will give you control. Don't let her have the idea that you're there to unconditionally support and comfort her. Let her miss you. Let her want you. Keep her off guard and chasing you a little.

 

When that light switch inside her flips back on, you will be in a relationship again. Don't even argue with her about her "dating" idea. Just look at her with a knowing smile, and lead her to where you want to go. It will quickly become an irrelevant issue.

 

BTW, thank you for the compliment, but I'm far from a relationship expert. I think, just like when talking to a friend or counselor, it's largely a matter of being on the outside looking in...the right answers become obvious when you're not immersed in the situation.

[Tell Me Why]

I asked her yesterday if she wanted to get together this week. She said she wasn't sure if she could, as if she was too busy to fit me into her schedule. She said she wanted to, but would let me know. Is she testing me? I don't get it. She says she misses me, but then when I want to get together, she says "I'll let you know if I can". Maybe she's testing me or something to see how I would react. When we were together, I became clingy and dependent on her and when she couldn't spend time with me, I'd get really upset, which was unhealthy.

 

My reaction to it was 100 percent positive. I just said, ok, let me know. So we'll see what happens, but I am back to being confused again.

[oldenoughtoknow]

She is testing you, playing a game, whatever you want to call it. She's maintaining control, because you asked her to get together, and she's sticking to her casual "date" direction.

 

Yes, she was wanting to see how you would react. You're going to have to let her have this one - glad to hear you played it cool - you can't force her to go out with you. I'd wait for her to call you and set something up from there.

 

What will make a difference is how you act when you're together. Remember: confidence, and in the mean time, keep the phone calls short. Don't let her rattle you...it's all part of the dance.

[Tell Me Why]

Well she wants to go to dinner tomorrow night. So I'm gonna pick the place and we will see how things go. I am going to play it cool, be myself, and be confident and hopefully the outcome will be good. Thanks again rich for all your advice, I'll post an update after tomorrow night.

[Tell Me Why]

So we went out to dinner last night and we had a great time. No bringing up the past. No tears. Just good old fun like the old days. But today I am sad. I don't know what she is thinking. I love her so much and I wish we could be engaged again. I don't know what she wants exactly. I want a future with her. Whose job is it to bring that up? Should we just do this dating thing until she brings something up?

[oldenoughtoknow]

That sounds perfect. That's what you guys need for a while. There's been too much pain and crap associated with your relationship recently. You need some time to rekindle what was once there.

 

Make sure you pursue her a little - grab her and kiss her every once in a while. Think fun and exciting, not reflective and mushy. Make her heart race, and walk away. Keep her off guard. Eventually, you will get clues as to when to pursue intimacy. If this goes the way it should, you guys will be on a fast track dating path - after all, you've been here together before. In the mean time, you have to have patience.

 

Remember your mantra and be confident. Do NOT bring up the past or being engaged again, or your flighty bird will fly away...again. You guys need to be "together" first, before you start talking about engagements and the future.

 

Don't worry about what she's thinking. Subtly lead her with your confidence and direction. Be unflappable in your determination. The knowing smile that says you know what you want, and you're looking right at it. That's what she wants...

[Tell Me Why]

Well I went away for the holiday weekend with some guy friends. Of course I heard from her through texts, saying she hoped I was having a good time and that she wanted to get together next week. Driving home on Monday she calls and asks if I want to go to a movie. We do. On the way home after I dropped her off, I just got really sad and started crying thinking about this all. I just don't know how long I can take it. I just want to ask her, "Do you ever thing we will be together again, because if not, why are we doing this?"

 

I just feel like she is just content with letting us hang out and never talk about the future. I love her but I can't wait around forever for her to come around and I wish I just knew when she would.

 

She called me around midnight last night on her way home from a concert to talk. She said when we hung out on Monday I seemed different and distant. She then asked me if anything happened on my trip this past weekend i.e. did I hook up with any other women. I told her the truth, NO, and that I didn't want to do that and I have no intention of doing such a thing. She then said "Well, its none of my business anyway, but I was just wondering."

 

If its none of her business, as she says, then why is she asking about it? The fact that she claims its none of her business makes me worry too, like she doesn't care what I do. I know that probably isn't the case though. I know the fact that she is always contacting me and wanting to hang out means something, but I just don't know if it means enough.

 

I want us to get back together, but I just don't know how long I can wait in limbo. I know you are saying to just be confident and not bring up the past, rich, but at some point, if she doesn't, I will have to, right?

[Ms Darcy]

As an outsider following the story, I'm just going to give you my gut reaction. If a guy suddenly started crying in a car with me, I'd lose a little feeling towards him - making subconsciously start to see him as a little weak. I'd start to feel pressure again and I would distance myself a bit.

 

I could understand the reaction if this had been going on for a few months, but this reconciliation strategy has only been a few weeks right? I'm just saying, your best chance is to not pressure her so much and stop crying in front of her. It's early yet and I feel like reconciliations are slow and require patience and steadiness because you are trying to demonstrate change.

 

You love her but you can't wait for her to fall in love with you again. That's what's going on here. In a new relationship, people often wait quite a while. Sometimes three months, sometimes six months. Maybe more.

 

Just some thoughts from a woman who would start heading towards the door after all that.

[oldenoughtoknow]

You need to be strong here, dude. Don't worry, she's still interested. Her comments about your seeing other women being "none of my business" is just a test. Remember my subtle leadership suggestion? When she said that, I would have responded "yes, it is your business," and dropped it. You would have subliminally planted in her mind that you are important to her and the two of you are still together. Those little things add up in a big way. She cares about what you are doing, and that's why she brought it up. She's heard your words about wanting to get back together, but she needs to feel it. She will feel it by your unwavering confidence and leadership.

 

My suggestions remain the same. Keep all phone calls short - make her miss you a little and want to get together in person. I would also try to do activities together where you're engaged and talking - in other words, a movie isn't the best choice for bonding. Have fun together. DO NOT ask her about the future - lead her there. Kiss her, hold her, and then step back and change the subject. Tease her a little. Do NOT act needy and clingy (OMG, I cannot emphasize that enough). Try to rebuild some passion between the two of you.

 

And whatever you do, DO NOT bring up the past. EVER. If she brings it up, kiss her, remember? (That's subtle leadership as well). You can't beg, plead or negotiate with someone to get back into a relationship with you - hearts rarely act in their own best and logical interest. Any time you try to talk about the great old times, she will only be thinking about the old pain. Do NOT go there. This is a fresh start. Be confident. Lead her into your new relationship. Sweep her off her feet.

[Tell Me Why]

Ms Darcy, sorry if I didn't make it clear, I meant to say I was crying AFTER I dropped her off while I was on my way home, I have cried around her once since this all started and that was only because she started crying first, but since then, I haven't and don't plan on it. But sometimes when I am by myself, I can't help but feel sad and shed some tears.

[Ms Darcy]

Ms Darcy, sorry if I didn't make it clear, I meant to say I was crying AFTER I dropped her off while I was on my way home, I have cried around her once since this all started and that was only because she started crying first, but since then, I haven't and don't plan on it. But sometimes when I am by myself, I can't help but feel sad and shed some tears.

 

 

Oh of course dear. I wouldn't expect you to be some heartless robot. I'm just glad you didn't do that in front of her. Best of luck buddy.

[Tell Me Why]

Thanks rich. My question for you now is, should I be the one asking her to hang out and do things or should I let her initiate that? I want her to miss me and I don't want to seem needy or dependent on her company. I didn't hear from her at all yesterday so today I'm sort of bummed out. Do you think I should initiate contact and ask her to get together? I feel if I don't she might think I don't care about spending time with her. (There's me being paranoid again about what she is thinking). Should I ask her out to dinner?

[oldenoughtoknow]

Patience. From what you've said, her emotions seem to be all over the map. And, the few times you've asked her to do something, she's standoffish/rejects/tests. She seems to want to lead your dating schedule at this point, so I would let her...for right now.

 

Here' s how you can turn this around. I would definitely wait and let her contact you again. When she mentions when she would like to get together, then you should take some control and say what you want to do together (no more movies). If she suggests something to do, make sure you change it a little. Change the restaurant, change the time, skip the movie, whatever. That subtly takes some control back as well.

 

At the end of your next date (after following all of the other things I've suggested), setup your next date. Don't ask...tell her what you want. That will subtly show confidence and leadership. Don't say "are you free Saturday night?" Say "I want to take you to X for dinner this Saturday." Small change in words, big change in feeling. You can negotiate a bit from there, but don't let her change everything. If she wants to play that game and change the date/time/venue, tell her you'll have to get back to her - and leave shortly there after. Maintain control. No wimpy. No needy. No doormat.

 

That's how you can start to take this dating schedule control away from her. I know some of this sounds like game playing, but she's playing them too. For right now, it sounds like you're confidence is wavering, and I definitely wouldn't risk another rejection by asking her out. Besides, just think that every NC minute that goes by is another minute she can miss you.

[Tell Me Why]

Well we went out to dinner last night and it seemed to be going well. No bringing up the past. I was confident and kept that confident smile. Then she drops a bombshell. She says shes planning on moving to Hawaii in October! She has family there and she says she has always wanted to live somewhere else and has been unhappy in this town I guess because of everything that has happened.

 

I was a bit startled by this and of course my mood changed and she noticed. She asked if I was upset about her wanting to move. I said no, and that I wanted her to be happy and I support her in what she wants to do, but of course, I would miss her. She then says that I should come out to visit her when she is there.

 

Later that night she asked me to sleep over and I did. Some light kissing and cuddling occurred. Now today I am just bummed out thinking about her moving thousands of miles away in just 4 months!

 

I don't want to lose her forever and I really want to be with her but I have no clue how to handle this situation. Do you think at some point before she moves I should confront her and just ask her if she ever sees us getting back together again?

 

If she does indeed move to Hawaii, I can't be holding on to hope of something that may never happen while shes thousands of miles away. I need to know where she thinks things between us are going.

 

If she still wants to continue to "date", then her moving to Hawaii could be the ultimate test of our relationship, as we've never had to deal with long distance. But I don't know, I fear that her moving to Hawaii could be her way of moving on for good, but I don't know for sure. Man, this really sucks and I'm really down about it, but I want her to be happy and if she will be happy moving to Hawaii, that is what I want for her.

[oldenoughtoknow]

Aw, TMW, you were doing so well. But you still don't have the mantra firmly planted in your head. Maybe the Hawaii thing was a test...maybe not. I think it was a test, and it was a big one. I'm afraid you failed. Your only shot at winning her back is through your unflappable confidence. When she mentioned Hawaii, you should have looked straight at her and told her "I don't want you to move to Hawaii. I want you right here." That would have put a lump in her throat. Don't let her tests change your mood - stay the course. The two of you ARE back together, remember? You can process your emotions the minute you drive away - not in front of her during the date. That's the only way you'll get her back.

 

These sleepover and cuddle things have got to stop. Not good. She wants to know that you're a man. A man with confidence and direction, and that direction includes her. And that includes "taking" her, when the time is right. Don't cuddle - that's wimpy. Kiss her like you mean it, with passion. Then go home. Otherwise, your current dance will only be a sad, protracted implosion. She wants to make sure you're a man and you aren't going to leave her again - you need to prove that to her.

 

Pass these tests, buddy...you can do it. When she says something like that and it feels weird, don't process it emotionally. Think of the mantra and then calmly respond. Lead her to where you want her. Don't think of her happiness first - that's wimpy. Think of your happiness first, and that includes your relationship with her. And don't cuddle and comfort her while she's withdrawing and making bad decisions. If you can't do that, you'll never deliver the confidence and leadership she needs.

 

Don't "confront" her and "ask" if she ever sees you getting back together again. Lead her. Take her. Replay last night in your head and think of what would have happened if you would have flatly told her to not move, given her a passionate Hollywood kiss goodnight, and then gone home. Her panties would be in a big bunch right now. Instead, she's still left wondering if you will ever be the man she needs and if not, what the hell should she should do with the rest of her life...

 

Did you at least setup the next date?

[Tell Me Why]

Well, I told her last night that I wanted to take her out to dinner some night this week. She did the usual, "Well, I'm not sure, I may be busy" thing but I'll let you know. But we will probably be getting together sometime this week.

 

Do you think I should bring up the Hawaii thing again and just flat out tell her "I don't want you to move"?

 

Man, I wish I knew if she was testing me and I wish I could pass all these tests with flying colors. I still feel like I have a chance, I just don't want to blow it for good.

[oldenoughtoknow]

I would be more specific with her on the next date issue for a while. Tell her "I want to take you to X for dinner Wednesday night." It shows subtle direction and confidence. If she wants to change one thing, go with it. If she waffles, drop it. When she calls to set something up, make yourself look busy - don't go with her first suggestion.

 

My original point is that it doesn't really matter if she's testing you or not. If she's really moving to Hawaii, that's what she's going to do. You have to do the same thing in either case. You can only give her your best shot. And that's the same thing I've always said. You're thinking and worrying too much about what she wants. It's what YOU want that's important. That's the confidence she needs. That's what she REALLY wants.

 

She's looking/testing to see how easily you'll let her slip away next time. If you just look down and depressed when she mentions moving to Hawaii, that's not showing her any confidence or direction. She's in control, yanking your chain, and you're shrugging your shoulders. Stop that!

 

Think of it as a whiny child and calm parent. The kid is saying "I want to go to Hawaii, I want ice cream, I want a new bicycle, I want to stay up until midnight and I want you to cuddle with me." Uh, no, that's not going to happen. You want the kid to grow up happy, healthy and well balanced. They're throwing these things at you to see what they can get away with. That's their job - it's what kids do. You need to firmly and calmly set the course. Stupid ideas will be dismissed. Histrionics will not be tolerated. This is what we're going to do...

 

Responding to the Hawaii thing will be difficult and less effective after the fact. But the next time you see her, at some point early in the evening I would clearly state "You know, I've thought about your move to Hawaii, and I don't want you to move. I want you to stay right here." Give her a command. Show her your direction. And then drop it. Don't wuss around and say whatever makes you happy! Next thing you know, you'll be standing on the tarmac holding a new bicycle and a gallon of ice cream as her plane takes off for Hawaii. OMG, screw that!

 

Do whatever you have to do...next time you're driving over to see her, chant to yourself "we are back together, we are back together, we are back together..." A thousand times...whatever it takes. You have to plant that in your head and every statement you make should ONLY support your mantra and what YOU want. She will respond. She's still waiting for you to take control of this, but if you keep failing her tests, they're only going to get worse, until she gives up completely.

 

Take control. Take her.

[Tell Me Why]

Thanks rich, your advice always gives me hope. I know on one hand that if she still didn't care and never saw us back together, she might not want to have anything to do with me. On the other hand, I fear she may want to have her cake and eat it too, she doesn't want to lose me forever, but at the same time she doesn't want to be with me or marry me. Then the Hawaii thing makes me fear that she really is over me and doesn't see a future because why else would she move thousands of miles away, especially if she saw us getting back together at some point?

 

I know I need to remain confident, but it is hard. You say I shouldn't worry about what she wants and just focus on what I want, but it can be difficult, especially if you are not sure if she even wants to get back together. That is why these "dates" are so hard. I am sitting there the entire time thinking "I love this girl", "I wish we were back together", "I wish we could start over", etc. and I have no clue whats on her mind. She might just be comfortable with us being friends and doesn't have any intentions of getting back together. Like I said, she might just want to have her cake and eat it too.

 

She will say things like "I don't want you to think things are permanant", and "I can't close the book on us", but then I fear she just might be saying those things to string me along so she can have me in her life in some capacity as a friend, while I'm sitting there desperately wanting to get back together. Its hard when you are on one page, and the other person is possibly on another.

 

This whole situation is just making me so sensitive to everything. If she doesn't call, I get upset, if she says she can't hang out, I get upset, etc. Then she says she's moving to Hawaii. I just don't want to be the schmuck that for months on end sat around waiting for this girl's feelings to change. If she moves to Hawaii and says that is officially over between us, then I will just feel like an idiot for waiting around in hopes that she would come back.

 

Confidence has never been a strong quality of mine. I think that is a reason why the relationship failed in the first place. I am trying to be more confident, but no matter how confident I act, I feel like I am getting nowhere with her. I don't know, I guess I just need a really big kick in the butt!

[oldenoughtoknow]

TMW, you're still not getting it.

 

One. You're still only focused on what SHE wants. You shouldn't care if she wants to get back together or not.

 

Two. She actually IS giving you clues that she wants to get back together, but you aren't leading the reconciliation, let alone passing her tests.

 

Don't worry about the past. It's done, and her continuing contact with you shows that she wants to move past it. Don't talk about the future. You can't just jump right back to where you were - on a marriage track. You don't get off that easy, Bumpy.

 

Deal with the now, and with what YOU want. You want her, so take her. When you have your direction planted firmly in your mind, her mixed messages, not calling and potential moves to Hawaii won't phase you. You are back together. PERIOD!

 

She's not hanging around to have her cake and eat it too...what exactly is she getting out of this? She can find any number of guys to be friends with her, talk to her and cuddle with her all night. She wants YOU! She's giving you another chance. You just need to TAKE her!

 

When you have this planted in your head, answers to her tests will be automatic:

 

She brings up the past. You kiss her until she stops. If she doesn't stop talking about it, say goodbye and leave.

 

She says "I don't want you to think things are permanent." You say "No, this limbo isn't permanent. I know that I'm the man you want."

 

She says "I can't close the book on us." You say "I know this book isn't closed. You still love me, and you know that I'm the man for you."

 

She says "I think I'm moving to Hawaii." You say "No, you're not. I want you right here by my side."

 

Stop worrying about the future. You have to get her back in the present first. Enjoy each other. Talk. Have fun. Tease her. Grab her and KISS HER PASSIONATELY! Do NOT cuddle with her all night anymore! Rekindle the spark. Don't be the wussy boy who cuddles with her all night because you just want to be back in a relationship with her and you're so sorry for what you've done. That is bull****! She will never be attracted to that!

 

This was the whole idea behind the grand gesture. You started it out well, but then you let her bring up the past and ruin the evening. That's not leading! NO, NO, NO! That's letting her flounder and sling mud and test you. The way you pass these tests is by leading her to what YOU want, with unflappable determination and confidence. She's putting out copious amounts of emotional female energy. You need to be the man, control her fears and guide her towards you - don't buy into it! Make her feel safe in your arms again. She's not looking for a girlfriend.

 

You are being a schmuck right now by waiting around for her feelings to change. She wants to be taken. She wants you to take her. She's giving you ample opportunities to get back together. But she's also testing you to make sure you aren't going to wuss out on her again. Show her you're a man! You say you love her and wish you were back together...Take her!

 

There, I think that's enough capital letters and exclamation points to count as a proper butt kicking. Now DO IT!

[Tell Me Why]

It sure is. Thanks rich. I know what I have to do now. I need to be confident and strong and show her that I am a man who knows what he wants!! That was the problem during our relationship, I usually only cared about what she wanted and did everything to please her and was always apologizing and feeling bad about myself. I was a wussy boy! I need to show her that confidence that she first saw when she fell in love with me..when I was a real man! I'll report back after our next encounter...thanks again rich for your support and advice!