One more reason to like Cali

[DieTeufelKatze]

What I don't understand is that some people think it's a CHOICE that is not in any way fueled by biological makeup. Why on earth would someone CHOOSE a sexual orientation with all the homophobia, hatred and discrimination that goes on in our society? Why does it not make sense that it is just the way someone is BORN... I couldn't be gay/bi any more than someone born straight could be gay. I am just not turned on by it. Is it a CHOICE for me? NO, it just IS. The percentage of people born homosexual has stayed stable, by what limited research has been done in the last half century and by scientific estimation. It hasn't INCREASED with the greater tolerance/acceptance of homosexuality, it has only become more apparent because people now no longer have to hide it so much, whereas they used to fear for thier LIVES, or be at risk to be put in a mental institution, if they were to come out. But it doesn't mean that suddenly everyone's going to turn gay if it is more accepted, it just means that the people who ARE born that way don't have to live in fear and constantly battle discriminatory attitudes (usually from strangers) every day.

 

Against gay marriage? Don't have one!!

 

It does remind me a LOT of the mentality of people opposed to civil rights.

[DieTeufelKatze]

Incidentally, one of my first cousins (who is a bit older than me), is a lesbian, and she just married her partner of 10+ years back when it was legal for a few months in OR. I couldn't have been happier for her, I love both her and her partner.

 

The problem with NOT allowing gay marriage is that when one partner dies, the surviving partner has NO legal rights or say in the estate/will or even parental custody of any children they have had together. Imagine what that does to the surviving partner, and ESPECIALLY to children who have been raised with that parent... they get hauled off to be raised by someone who may be an utter stranger, with the surviving partner having NO rights, even if the partner who has passed away has given FULL management of the will/estate! Because they are not legally married and are not blood relatives, the state can take that right away, even if it was the dying partner's wish! It's not some "moral" battle we're talking about with gay marriage here... it's more of a LEGAL issue!

 

I would have rather been raised by my cousin and her partner than my dysfunctional, angry, emotionally unavailable parents (one was an addict, the other co-dependant). I think it would have been a MUCH healthier environment, honestly. I don't think the sexual orientation of parents has ANYTHING to do with their parenting abilities, I think the argument is moot.

[pumpkinmoon]

I also believe that people are born gay and it isn't a choice at all. I saw a documentary once about it where they carried out medical tests with brain scans and the like and it showed that certain parts of a brain that belonged to a gay person were very different to the same parts of brains belonging to straight people. Not sure if this makes any sense, not sure how else to explain it but it has been proven that it is something to do with the make-up of a person.

[flyingdodo]

I don't hate gays, I have had gay friends my whole life. I just don't support/agree with their lifestyle. Like I said, I feel for them because they do have a phsycological issue, But again, more reasons it's a danger to society.....

 

A psychological issue? Please will you explain further what you mean about that. All major professional mental health organisations have affirmed that being gay is not a mental disorder so I am unsure what you mean.

 

Further weaken the family, the first and best defense against an ever-encroaching government.

 

How does it weaken the family?

 

Encourage children to experiment with homosexuality. This will put more kids at risk for HIV, hepatitis A, B and C, “gay bowel syndrome,” human papillomavirus (HPV), syphilis, gonorrhea and other sexually transmitted diseases.

 

What?! I don't understand this!

What STDs can gay people get that straight people can't? None! I don't understand this argument, surely if anything gay marriage will curb the spread of these diseases as it encourages monogamous relationships.

 

Homosexual households are also more prone to domestic violence. For example: “The incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population,” according to D. Island and P. Letellier in Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them (New York: Haworth Press, 1991).

 

A study in the Journal of Social Service Research reported that “slightly more than half of the [lesbians surveyed] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner.” (G. Lie and S. Gentlewarrior, “Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships: Discussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications,” No. 15, 1991.) More cites can be found in Tim Dailey, The Negative Health Effects of Homosexuality, Insight paper, Family Research Council, 2001.

 

There is a lot of conflicting research about this so I feel I can't give much of an opinion on it.

 

Put more children at risk as adoption agencies abandon the crrent practice of favoring married households and begin placing more children in motherless or fatherless households.

 

How does this put children at risk? The love and commitment of the parents is what is going to make a difference to the child's upbringing not the gender of their parents.

 

Encourage more people to remain trapped in homosexuality rather than seek to re-channel their desires toward normal sexuality.

 

Who is to say what is normal? I doubt that there are many gay people who feel "trapped".

 

Pit the law and our government against the beliefs of tens of millions of people who believe homosexuality is wrong.

 

The majority of America was against the freeing of the slaves and giving women the vote, can you say those things are wrong too? Democracy only works when it's everyone's interests being considered.

 

Create grounds for further attacks on the freedoms of speech, religion and association.

 

How exactly?

[Imaginary]

I disagree. how are we trained to be heterosexual?

 

Not trained per se, but, since very young, we know we're supposed to like the opposite gender.

 

just because girls get barbies and wear pink when they're little doesn't mean they are forced to like men. [/Quote]

 

I fail to see what Barbies have to do with anything.

 

It is natural, that's why they do it. because it's normal. if we were just supposed to be with whatever, then why can't we all produce children

together?[/Quote]

 

How about being with a "whatever" that you love instead of being with a "whatever" just to produce children?

 

why is it just male and female? religious or not, it's common sense. the bodies were made for male/female interaction.

 

Homosexuality occurs among lots of species in nature.

 

Medically male intercourse can be VERY damaging! if it were normal, we'd have no population today.

 

Anything done carelessly can be very damaging.

 

And of course, because we have some homosexuals, NO ONE will produce children, right? No. The percentage of the population of homosexuals is not enough to make the human race be extinct.

 

I believe those that have decided to become homosexual did it by choice or they were molested possibly when they were young. And those who weren't, I believe THINK they were born gay and felt "different" as children were in fact born with a phsychological disorder, just as many stright people are. There is nothing natural about it.

 

Oh good grief. You can't just decide to like something and suddenly like it. There is no way I like olives. I just can't eat them without feeling grossed out. But according to you, I could just decide to like them and BAM, just like that, I will.

 

And I'd like to see your degree in psychology before you go making your own assumptions to explain why people are gay. They just are.

 

And children are affected by gay households too young to have an objective opinion at puberty. They are mocked, ridiculed and confused all through school/young adult hood, for not being able to know what it is to have a mother and father or grow up in a healthy household.

 

Not necessarily true. First of all, children will be mocked for ANYTHING. We don't give them cosmetic surgeries to change their body appearance to avoid mocking. Back in my school, a kid was made fun of because his mom was fat, and another one was made fun of because he was hindu and he "looked weird". I was made fun of because of my nose.

 

It's a fact of life and you have to learn to deal with it. Children can't grow in bubbles.

[Krystal_Ivy]

you are definatly the definition of judgemental. You really need to calm down. You don;t know me so don't act like you do. I didn't shove anything down anyones thorat. I was just saying my opinion, but I guess that's not allowed. It seems I am a bigot now just because I disagree with a certin lifestyle. You may want to try to read a dictionary once in a while because bigot means someone who hates a type of people. Which I don't. As I already explained, but you are too closed minded to try and understand that you can disagree with one's lifestyle and not hate. You should try it sometime. And no, I didn't want to get biblical, but since you did then why not read these,

 

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination"(Lev. 18:22)

 

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."(1 Cor. 6:9-10)

 

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." -Rom. 1:26-28

 

And as the Bible clearly states, God does NOT hate homosexuals, but hates their sin.

so how is it natural again....?

[annie24]

so how is it natural again....?

 

homosexuality is found all over the animal kingdom - deer, penguins, seagulls, bonobos (our closest ape relative). it's definitely not limited to humans. and most of the homosexual and bisexual people i know - it is not a choice for them. i think if it were a choice, they would have chosen to been born straight. i know a lot of them struggled with their homosexuality and really did try dating the opposite sex and really tried to make it work, but it didn't.

 

(but the hypocraisy of the priests gets to me. sure the bible says all sorts of things, and the priests claim to follow the bible - then the priests went off and molested little boys? it's disgusting.)

 

i think that gay people can make great parents. i know a guy who was raised by two lesbians, and he turned out really great. i know a lesbian couple who adopted two little girls from an orphanage in china. no one can tell me that these two girls are worse off in a loving home, with food and education, rather than being in a chinese orphanage. i think they are very lucky and have very caring parents. i think it's most important for a child to grow up in a household that is calm, where the parents love each other and the children, and there is food, water, healthcare, education.... i think these things are more important than the child growing up with gay or straight parents.

[m12988]

Great post. I can't believe how close-minded many are about this topic in the year of 2008. I'm still furious that it took them THIS freakin long to legalize gay marriage too. What on earth were they waiting on? I thought this law would have passed at least in the 1970s.

[m12988]

 

Not necessarily true. First of all, children will be mocked for ANYTHING. We don't give them cosmetic surgeries to change their body appearance to avoid mocking. Back in my school, a kid was made fun of because his mom was fat, and another one was made fun of because he was hindu and he "looked weird". I was made fun of because of my nose.

 

It's a fact of life and you have to learn to deal with it. Children can't grow in bubbles.

 

Exactly. Children will be teased NO MATTER WHAT. And it's children of parents who are very naive and judge certain populations of the world in a negative manner.

 

It hurts me to see some of the most loving people (and some gays) trying so hard to concieve/adopt and any fool can go out there, make a child, and tell them that anyone who is different from them is WRONG and needs to be ridiculed.

[m12988]

What I don't understand is that some people think it's a CHOICE that is not in any way fueled by biological makeup. Why on earth would someone CHOOSE a sexual orientation with all the homophobia, hatred and discrimination that goes on in our society?

 

It does remind me a LOT of the mentality of people opposed to civil rights.

 

I'm proud to see people like you and I'm hoping you are the MAJORITY of the population. Too bad people don't have common sense anymore, it seems to be an epidemic now that people are just leaving their common sense all over the place and never going back to look for it.

[Krystal_Ivy]

thanx for be respectful with your responses annie. It's nice to know their are some mature people on here. I agree the preist thing gives christians a bad name, but of course, if you are following christ, you're not going to molest little boys. And the Bible speaks about those who claim to preach in the name of God and go and sin horribly. They will be judged. But I'm sure some gay people could be good parents, it's just I see it as really confusing for the child, and in a way missing out on what it's like to have a "normal" childhood. I loved having a mommy figure and father figure growing up. I needed them both very much, and having both aspects of a mother and father was essential to me, as I believe it is to most kids.

[Krystal_Ivy]

I found this intresting. I read it in an article. "there is A homosexual position that is held by a number of psychoanalysts (e.g., Bieber, Socarides). According to them, homosexual behavior is a mental illness, symptomatic of arrested development. They believe that homosexuals have unnatural or perverse desires as a consequence of poor familial relations in childhood or some other trauma. No researcher has found provable biological or genitic differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals that weren't caused by their behavior

Occasionally you may read about a scientific study that suggests that homosexuality is an inherited tendency, but such studies have usually been discounted after careful scrutiny or attempts at replication. NO ONE has found a single heredible genetic, hormonal or physical difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals - at least none that is replicable. (9, 12) That suggests that none has been found because none exists.

[greywolf]

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves." Leviticus 25:44

Does this mean I can own Mexicans and Canadians? Please clarify this for me.

 

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days thou shalt labor and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." Exodus 20:8-10

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death." Exodus 35:2

I normally don't like killing people. Do I have to do it myself or can I report them to the church authorities?

 

 

"Keep my decrees: Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material." Leviticus 19:19

Does this mean I need to check the material of all the clothing I have and toss out the ones that aren't 100% cotton? I really don't want to have to do this because I have few clothes already.

 

I hope you can clear up these matters for me.

[Iris-PJ]

^^^ good point greywolf! ....

 

Religion aside ...

 

In a free nation made up of (alleged) adult equals ... marriage is and should be a civil right.

 

Homosexual = Heterosexual ... EQUALITY... this does not mean they are the same, but we should all be treated the same.

 

Same sex couples are not asking for "special" rights, they are asking to be granted the same civil right (as tax paying citizens) their heterosexual counterparts take for granted. They are not taking away anything away from anyone!

 

 

this is not about whether it's right or wrong to be gay, it is not about gay households vs. straight households, it is not about God, it is not about determining a groups psychological make up, it is simply about giving a right to a group of citizens.

 

live and let love!

 

-PJ

 

p.s. in my opinion marriage is overrated ... I hope same-sex couples make marriage more appealing to me!

[kuiks8]

So Krystal have you ever lied? ever had too much to drink? Ever wanted a sweater that someone else had? Ever coveted? be honest now...

 

All sins are equal in Gods eyes right?!?! so if you have done any of the above you are on equal ground....(please note i DO NOT think homosexuality is a sin)

 

as i stated before your hate the sin not the sinner...cop out...calling people who practice homosexuality unnatural and saying that they have a disorder to me is pretty hateful. The fact that you have expressed your opinion (small as it is) and HURT so many people on ths board is why i have written how i have. I agree with DTK you are saying that people who have been persecuted by the close minded (that includes you) who have been ridiculed and discriminated and treated like 2nd class citizens CHOOSE this lifestyle but maybe if they get some counseling and maybe if they take a pill and pray a lot they can choose to be just like you. Woudn't that be nice.

 

Life isn't like that HOMOSEXUALITY is not like that. It's not a choice, its biological just like your brown hair or the fact that you have glasses...

but hey i am not judging, blonde hair, brown hair i accept all types!!!

[Krystal_Ivy]

sure. All of those were out of context AND all of those applied in the old testement, when people were under the law (which if you did your research, you'd see we aren't anymore) and they were under times of rituals, not all of the time. Now can you explain the ones I posted now? 8)

[Krystal_Ivy]

have I sinned? yes. BUT I've repented and turned away from doing those things I know are wrong. So I am forgiven, just as ANY homosexual would be if they did the same. It's really sad to me how ignorant you are saying it is not a sin to be gay when God spells it out for you. living in ignorance is only hurting you and others you brainwash. And once again, YOU are not God, so YOU canno't say whats a cop out and what's not, because you DON'T KNOW ME and don't know my heart towards homosexuals. I can say that bipolar people have a disorder, does that mean I hate them too? I don't know why you're so big on this hate thing. I hate no one so get your facts stright and stop being so judgemental. But you can continue to keep your mind closed and live in a fantasy world, because I guess you know more about mental illnesses than trained mental health specialists right?

[kuiks8]

your close mindedness astounds me. your view of God is so small and so legalistic. I am pretty sure the "trained" mental health specialists that you speak of come from the "christian" associations. So yes I choose to not believe their studies...

Being gay is not equivalent to being bipolar.

I am not living in a fantasy world Krystal, I live in the real world where people from all walks, and all religions, all races AND all sexual preferences coexist.

 

I am not going to argue this further with you. I will say this one day -and i hope its soon you will wake up from this fog of legalism that you are stuck in and see that there is a big beautiful world that God created and that EVERYONE has equal right to. Hopefully you will one day see that religion shuts you off from so much of the world and so many people and so many experiences and I truly hope that one day you will come to know the God I believe in, the one that doesn't look to condemn and judge but the God who sees all people as being accepted and loved right where they are, no matter their walk of life.

[flyingdodo]

This thread is meant to be about gay marriage but has turned into a discussion about whether being gay is right or wrong! So back on topic for a second, Krystal please can you tell me how allowing gay marriage is going to affect you?

[greywolf]

What I don't understand is why you came to the GLBT forum in the first place. You knew you weren't going to like what you saw here. I wouldn't go to the divorce forum and tell them that I thought divorce was wrong.

 

I understand you have a different opinion, and that whatever I say isn't going to change your mind, just how whatever you say won't change mine. But people come to ENA for support. This is a place where everyone should feel welcome. Don't you agree?

[novaseeker]

I found this intresting. I read it in an article. "there is A homosexual position that is held by a number of psychoanalysts (e.g., Bieber, Socarides). According to them, homosexual behavior is a mental illness, symptomatic of arrested development. They believe that homosexuals have unnatural or perverse desires as a consequence of poor familial relations in childhood or some other trauma. No researcher has found provable biological or genitic differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals that weren't caused by their behavior

Occasionally you may read about a scientific study that suggests that homosexuality is an inherited tendency, but such studies have usually been discounted after careful scrutiny or attempts at replication. NO ONE has found a single heredible genetic, hormonal or physical difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals - at least none that is replicable. (9, 12) That suggests that none has been found because none exists.

 

I hope that they never do isolate a gene for homosexuality, because it would result in a kind of gay holocaust -- given the chance, it seems more or less certain that a goodly number of parents would select out for that characteristic at the very least.

 

I view orientation as a part of our personality that is parts nature and nurture. We're composites -- all of us -- gay or straight.

 

The reason why many religions have such an issue with homosexuality is that homosexuality has always been rampant. In pre-Christian Greece it was normal for married men to have sexual relationships with young men. Plato's famous "Symposium" on love debated whether male/male love or male/female love was superior -- at the time it was not an obviously easy to answer question, despite later religious literature that would take male/female relational superiority as a given. Even in subsequent periods, it flourished -- the Roman Emperor Hadrian was so griefstruck when his boyfriend died unexpectedly in Egypt that he had statues erected to his boyfriend's honor in most of the major cities of the Empire ... and he was the Roman *Emperor*.

 

Society has had an equilibrium previously about homosexuality. Religion turned that upside down because of the quite remarkably anti-gay Tanach (sensible for a struggling agrarian society, where maintaining a steady birth pool was a large concern). And society is regaining its equilibrium around homosexuality again. Everything comes in cycles in history.

[Pocket Rocket]

have I sinned? yes. BUT I've repented and turned away from doing those things I know are wrong. So I am forgiven, just as ANY homosexual would be if they did the same.

 

Are you telling me you only lied once, repented and never did it again? Hmmm? Are you telling me that for the rest of your living days you will never lie, envy, or lust for another again? You're human, it's pretty unlikely. And what you are posting on here IS a form of hate. Taking a 'holier than thou' attitude towards ANYONE and seeing yourself as ABOVE anyone (for whatever reason), whether it is because of morals, religion, gender, race and so on, IS a form of hate. No one is EVER above or below anyone else.

 

You cannot deny, no matter what apologetic changes have been made in the bible, that the New Testament still features slavery, sexism and violence, and not in condemnation of these things. The bible was written by people not god. It served as a code of ethics for the time in which it was written and a lot has changed since then. It is a reflection of life as it was thousands of years ago - are you telling me that everything you find in the bible is still applicable today? (that we should accept slavery, sexism and violence?). Or are we advocating selective morality?

 

People do the best they can in this life with what they have, and the only so-called 'crime' consenting homosexual couples have committed is loving each other. There's enough hate in this world without having to go bash people for loving one another. Save your speech for people who DO hurt others.

 

Your arguments are also contradictory. If homosexuality is, according to you, a mental illness, which by that nature means it's involuntary, then how can it be a sin? Something doesn't add up there.

 

As for children being raised by a gay couple, I have met three such individuals, they are happy, well adjusted and successful individuals. That is not to say that every homosexual couple will be able to raise a child well - but it's no different with heterosexual couples. And for those of you that are saying children will have a hard time and be mocked, it is up to SOCIETY to change its attitudes, not homosexuals. We should be educating our children that it is wrong to mock and hurt others, not let bullying go on regardless - THAT is the real issue there, NOT homosexuality.

 

And you're right, it's up to god to judge what is right or wrong, not you.

[pianoguy]

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves." Leviticus 25:44

Does this mean I can own Mexicans and Canadians? Please clarify this for me.

 

Hey greywolf- did you take this from the West Wing episode where Bartlett lays into the evil preacher lady?

 

I have to say I hate watching this show because I wish real life were like this.

 

I can't say I'm opposed to owning Canadians though. Think about how much fun it would be.

[kuiks8]

you can't own us! we will never be bought

hehe

I love the west wing too John Bartlett is the coolest president ever!

[pianoguy]

I think we all need to keep in mind that there are a lot of different kinds of Christians and that nobody really knows for sure what the Bible says. The Bible is a very complicated book, it is not a set of traffic laws that say what you can and cannot do. As such, to be understood it needs to be interpreted, and people approaching the same verse in complete honesty can still come to completely different conclusions.

 

We need to be careful about getting stuck within our own traditions. The conservative voice of the Christian church is well represented, but there are also liberal Christians, and they are just as much Christian as anybody else.

 

The Episcopalian church is part of the second largest denomination of Christians in the world, just behind the Roman Catholic church, and they teach that homosexuality is not a sin and bless gay unions. It's a widely respected and old church.

 

The UCC (United Church of Christ- not to be confused with the Church of Christ) is descended from the churches that the Pilgrims founded, and they also believe that the Bible is not against homosexuality.

 

My point is, Christians believe all different kinds of things about what the Bible says, and they are all (mostly) approaching it honestly and thoughtfully. We can't just roundly condemn everybody that disagrees with us. The issue is not black and white.