She's against a prenup, I won't marry without one, are we doomed?

[confused_guy84]

You can't compromise on EVERYTHING. Some things are just deal breakers. Hence my heroin addict analogy. It's extreme but i hoped it would demonstrate my point, i guess it didnt. We both compromise on a lot of things. You're making me out to be some greedy a$$hole that just demands everything from my significant other and bails if I don't get it. That is not the case. If you'd like an example, right now I live in central texas and she is a nursing student 3 hours away from me. I could have very well just ended our relationship as soon as she moved away, but I didnt. We compromised by agreeing to take turns making the 3 hour trip every weekend so we can be with eachother and try to make it work. I am not the person you're trying so hard to make me look like.

 

I will not get married without a prenup. Just like I will not jump out of an airplane without a parachute, or walk out into the middle of traffic without looking both ways. It's a life decision, and a moral decision that I've made for myself. I need someone who understands this decision and sees it the way I do. I'm trying to do the mature thing. We both probably have about the same earning potential, so we will "probably" make the same amount of money in the future and have about the same amount of assets. "Probably". I could also "probably" walk out into the middle of a seldom used backroad without looking both ways and not get hit by a truck. But whats the point in taking that risk?

 

And your last point is just horrifying to think about. Are you saying that people get married without prenups because if the relationship gets miserable then they stay together just to avoid a painful divorce process? That's awful. If I'm married to someone I want it to be because I love them and want to spend my life with them. Not because I feel obligated or am afraid of a long legal battle.

[MsOz]

For instance, lets say a couple marries, and the man owned a business prior to marriage. 10 years later they decide to divorce. The company is now worth 10 times as much as it was when they got married, but the wife had no involvement with the company. Why does she deserve half of those assets?

 

 

Surely as a 'wife' she would have been supporting her husband, maybe by listening to his business problems, looking after the children, arranging the household so the husband could spend his time building up the business so it is worth so much - doesn't she deserve a fair share??

 

Prenups seem cold & unromantic whereas Marriage is supposed to be the opposite! You can't insure marriage like a car and getting married isn't life threating like jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Yeah you can get hurt but all the prenups in the world aren't going to help make that better if your marriage does fall apart!

 

I can't believe you compared a not signing a prenup to being a heroin addict, no where near the same thing.

 

You seem to have some very clinical feelings about marriage - maybe it's just not for you at this time.

[Gracelove]

"She's against a prenup, I won't marry without one, are we doomed? "

 

I think so. Too bad this is a conversation you guys didn't have on a 3rd or 5th date.

[littlestar]

I still can't see the problem with protecting ones finances!

 

After all if you love someone you would be willing to give up the opportunity to be able to take something that doesnt belong to you in the first place?

[littlestar]

For instance, lets say a couple marries, and the man owned a business prior to marriage. 10 years later they decide to divorce. The company is now worth 10 times as much as it was when they got married, but the wife had no involvement with the company. Why does she deserve half of those assets?

 

 

Surely as a 'wife' she would have been supporting her husband, maybe by listening to his business problems, looking after the children, arranging the household so the husband could spend his time building up the business so it is worth so much - doesn't she deserve a fair share??

 

Prenups are unromantic and cold whereas Marriage is supposed to be the opposite!

 

I can't believe you compared a not signing a prenup to being a heroin addict, sad very sad!

 

I dont think prenups should have anything to do with romance. Romance is the mushy stuff, prenups are part of reality, the real side of life not the ones that are made up in movies that say u can live on love alone.

[confused_guy84]

"She's against a prenup, I won't marry without one, are we doomed? "

 

I think so. Too bad this is a conversation you guys didn't have on a 3rd or 5th date.

 

I agree, lesson learned. Maybe I should bring this up much earlier in the dating stage. I dont know the right way to talk about a sensitive topic like this. It's hard.

[confused_guy84]

Surely as a 'wife' she would have been supporting her husband, maybe by listening to his business problems, looking after the children, arranging the household so the husband could spend his time building up the business so it is worth so much - doesn't she deserve a fair share??

 

Prenups are unromantic and cold whereas Marriage is supposed to be the opposite!

 

I can't believe you compared a not signing a prenup to being a heroin addict, sad very sad!

 

Of course she deserves SOME of the assets. Thats why I said prenups are NOT one sided. It is a contract you put in place during a time when your relationship is rosy so EVERYONE is protected. The wife most certainly deserves SOME of her husbands assets, assuming she didn't cheat etc etc. And the same vice versa for the man if it's the wife who owns the business. The pendulum swings both ways. The contract is in place to make sure that everyone is taken care of in a way that both spouses agree is fair.

 

And as far as the heroin addict reference, come on give me a break. I tend to use extreme examples to get my point accross, I'm not literally equating marriage and drug addiction, its an analogy.

[Enigmatika]

My gf refuses to see my side and finds the whole idea insulting. I'm kind of at a crossroads here. I want to convince her that a prenup is not me being selfish, but actually me looking out for whats best for both of us and our potential future family. Prenups are not one sided, they protect both spouses. That's the point of them.

See your point.

 

A little clause that might be added:

If at any point in time that either married partner cheats on the other. The cheater loses 100% any and all claim to any marital assets.

 

She is being ridiculous IMO.

 

Raising kiddies/ house cleaning and not financially adding to the assets does NOT make her contribution EQUAL to the males $$$$ contribution. When a woman makes the Choice to have kids she needs to take that into consideration...Many don't.

 

While she is the "stay at home mom" who is paying for her? HE IS.

9 months as an incubator does NOT equal "claims" later down the road.

Listening to him complain is not "paid time."

You can't insure marriage like a car and getting married isn't life threating like jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Yeah you can get hurt but all the prenups in the world aren't going to help make that better if your marriage does fall apart!

...actually....they can.

[kuiks8]

See your point.

 

 

Raising kiddies/ house cleaning and not financially adding to the assets does NOT make her contribution EQUAL to the males $$$$ contribution. When a woman makes the Choice to have kids she needs to take that into consideration...Many don't.

 

While she is the "stay at home mom" who is paying for her? HE IS.

9 months as an incubator does NOT equal "claims" later down the road.

Listening to him complain is not "paid time."

 

I totally disagree with this...if the mom wasn't staying home and taking care of the kids do you know how much daycare costs these days?

running the home is the same as working full time if not more time consuming and stressful and it does deserve compensation...

[ProtestTheHero]

If you are well off financially, a prenup is the sort of thing you need to be big on, and I can see why you aren't willing to compromise.

 

People in general are incredibly fickle. The divorce rate is riduculous. Romance is nice, but it's not worth half of what I own.

[confused_guy84]

See your point.

A little clause that might be added:

If at any point in time that either married partner cheats on the other. The cheater loses 100% any and all claim to any marital assets.

 

There are all kinds of provisions like this that can be added to a prenup. The whole idea of a prenup is to make the marriage AND the divorce (if it happens), fair for everyone involved.

 

There could be another clause that says something to the effect of, because the wife has forfeited so much time being a mother instead of going to school, her earning potential has decreased and so she deserves more money from her husband. That, in my eyes, is perfectly legit and reasonable and would be part of my prenup. It's fair.

 

But would I agree to that during a divorce? Hell no! Divorces are not a time to make fair, reasonable compromises. Both spouses are hurt and angry. How can they agree on fair terms when they can't even agree to stay together?

[confused_guy84]

I totally disagree with this...if the mom wasn't staying home and taking care of the kids do you know how much daycare costs these days?

running the home is the same as working full time if not more time consuming and stressful and it does deserve compensation...

 

Im not saying the wife doesn't deserve compensation for what she does. However, if a husband builds an enormous enterprise, and his wife did not have EQUAL share in building that enterprise, then she does not deserve EQUAL compensation. She deserves money for what she contributed and also for any additional money she could have made had she chose not to marry that man. This means, if a man is worth 10,000 total, and his wife did more then 10,000 worth of work, she deserves it all and then some. But if a man is worth 10 million, then his wife better have contributed 5 million dollars worth of effort or there is no way in hell that she deserves half. And the same goes for a woman business owner and a stay at home dad, so don't go getting all sexist on me

[confused_guy84]

If you are well off financially, a prenup is the sort of thing you need to be big on, and I can see why you aren't willing to compromise.

 

People in general are incredibly fickle. The divorce rate is riduculous. Romance is nice, but it's not worth half of what I own.

 

Even if you're not well off financially, a prenup makes sense. You could become well off in the future while you're married.

 

And to go off on a bit of a tangent, kinda, while you're married, sure, everything is shared. She's your chosen partner, and you're hers, so its 50/50. But the second the word divorce comes into play, you are no longer partners. It is no longer a marriage, it is a business deal. Call me cold and callous if you want, but that's reality. When a marriage is over, the love is gone (usually). So it's back to basic economics. Who earned what money, who did what work, and how should they be compensated. A prenup spells all of that out clear as day and makes the whole divorce process much less painful.

[Jayar]

I absolutely 100% unequivocally agree with Confused Guy. Deal breaker for me... Move on. I insist on a prenup as well. This is something you just have to factor in if you are at all independent and waiting to get married until you are financially stable, and established in a career. I don't think it is any more unromantic than asking a partner to get tested before I sleep with them.

 

For all those saying a prenup gives him an "easy way out" bah... I disagree... NOT having a prenup just gives HER an easy way to hold his balls in a vice grip.

 

And you can't "compromise" on a prenup... It either is in effect or it is not. No compromise. Just like you can't "compromise" on kids by having only half a kid.

[Jayar]

Even if you're not well off financially, a prenup makes sense. You could become well off in the future while you're married.

 

Be REALLLLLLLLLLYYYYY careful with this. It isn't the case in all places. In Canada (where I live) you cannot protect future assets ahead of time, just what you have going in.

[confused_guy84]

Btw, me and my gf didn't discuss all of this in this depth. It was more of a quick argument that's been floating around in my head ever since. I'm using this forum to get all my thoughts in order before we have the real talk. I really don't think she's going to see my side, unfortunately. And this is something I'm unwilling to compromise on. That doesn't mean I don't compromise. It's just one of those things that is very important to me. I've seen first hand what happens to men who marry the women of their dreams and then get sucked dry after the woman who promised him "till death do us part" decides she wants out.

[confused_guy84]

Be REALLLLLLLLLLYYYYY careful with this. It isn't the case in all places. In Canada (where I live) you cannot protect future assets ahead of time, just what you have going in.

 

I've talked to a couple lawyer friends and really the only thing you can't add to a prenup are things that directly concern the wellbeing of the children. And even then, you can put those things in, but it's up to the court to decide what's best.

 

You can most certainly add clauses that dictate how future assets are distributed. This is in the united states though, and I think it's broken down even further by state. I have no idea how Canada handles things though.

[confused_guy84]

ust like you can't "compromise" on kids by having only half a kid.

 

lol, that cracked me up.

[Jayar]

I've talked to a couple lawyer friends and really the only thing you can't add to a prenup are things that directly concern the wellbeing of the children. And even then, you can put those things in, but it's up to the court to decide what's best.

 

You can most certainly add clauses that dictate how future assets are distributed. This is in the united states though, and I think it's broken even further down by state. I have no idea how Canada handles things though.

 

Oh I didn't mean you cannot include it in a prenup... But the water it holds in court is something entirely different. Many prenup clauses are thrown out or altered when the crap DOES hit the fan, because of various factors. It'll come down to the lawyers and the judge, and it isn't written in stone. Basically just be aware that any situation she (as in your future divorcee) brings to the table during a divorce HAS THE POTENTIAL to undermine the agreement. It is not failsafe.

 

For instance, if you come in with $100K, there is very little she can EVER say that will allow the law to go "yeah she deserves half of that" it's pretty cut and dry. But if you build a $10M corporation there are any multitude of "contributors" she can bring up and a good lawyer can use to undermine the agreement. I am almost 100% certain that there is no way, prenup or not, that you'd get out with the entire $10M corporation (or even close to it). I just don't think it happens. If it happened, there wouldn't be such ugly divorces in Hollywood.

[confused_guy84]

You're right, the law is all screwy like that. I think having a prenup definitely pushes things in favor of fairness though. Which is really all I want.

 

I don't think asking for a prenup should be taken as insulting. It's basically like saying, "Hey, I love you. I love you so much in fact that I'd like us to sign a piece of paper so that if, god forbid, something happens between us, me AND you AND our children will all be taken care of." How is that insulting?

 

It's not like I'm calling her a gold-digger, or rooting for divorce so I can take all her stuff. I just want to balance the playing field a bit so neither one of us gets screwed.

 

Anyways, enough ranting for tonight. I'm off to bed. Thanks for everyone's input, it helps a lot.

[d24]

I read this thread through completely, every response, because this is a very very big problem for me. Apologies in advance for the very long winded response/examples in my saying why I agree that prenups are essential and if this is a red flag for you, and she wont see your way - I'd seriosuly consider leaving.

 

My girlfriend and I have had that similar conversation and I too have been dwelling on it. I know it's a dealbreaker for me if she won't sign one, and I'm sure it's a dealbreaker for her if I force her. Who's right? It doesn't matter. Perhaps there is no wrong or right. All that matters is that as much as you love eachother you're disagreeing on something that is very important and neither is willing to change their mind.

 

At the moment I have poor credit. I have extreme debts, and I'm a lousy 'catch'. But I've recently got promoted at work, and I'm only one step away from being an executive in a FTSE 100 company. I'm buying a house with a minimal mortgage quite early on in life and with my salary increase I know I'll be making something of my life in the next 5-10 years. Unless something goes drastically wrong I truly believe (without sounding too bigheaded) that I will make some degree of a success in my working life.

 

Now what contribution will my girlfriend (/wife) make to this? She's working now which helps pay the bills, but to be fair I pay around 70%. In the future she'll have our children and stay at home until they're of school age. So fair enough, maybe she'll lose 10yrs of her career, and save us 10yrs of childcare costs.....

 

but look at it financially....

if the costs of childcare would have been ~£70k (7hrs a day, 10yrs) and her loss of earnings would have been ~£200k (based on her current salary) - it makes more sense financially to work and let someone else bring up our kids. The only real loss is when 10yrs later she tries to get a job, she'll not be at the same rung of the ladder had she not taken a career break.

 

I wouldn't want this though, I want the mother of my children to be at home teaching them and ensuring they're becoming all they can be as opposed to some nany/childminder.... but at the same time this is taking personal preferences of the parents over financial logic. (you'd likely have a better standard of living if you're living off 2 salaries and have kids in childcare instead of living off mine alone)

 

Now, say I get promoted over the years to become CEO of my own company by working hard.... while my wife stays at home and looks after the kids. I'm motivated and I'd imagine providing for my family will make me more driven - but only minimally more so. If anything kids will add more stress to my life, and marriage may become strained over time due to constraints..... sure my wife may listen to my problems, advise, take my mind off work.... but has she made enough contribution to deserve half my business? I doubt it.

 

Was she there when I sold those widgets to South Africa above cost? no.

Was she there when I was working 15 hour days to get my cost proposal in on time? no.

Has she come up with the solution for the low yielding bonds? no.

 

Thign is, her contribution to the marriage at this point has been nothing but sacrificed earnings with minimal(ish) emotional support/grounding. Does she deserve half of my £10million business? In my opinion no.

 

She's lost out £200k earnings, to save £70k in costs, and can only get a job on £x as opposed to £x+progression. £5million for 10years of raising children? £500k a year? No way is that even remotely fair. A nanny would have done her work for £20k pa, and I could have gotten all the upport in the world I needed from my secretary (dont read too much into that haha).

 

This 50-50 rule is absolute crap, couples need to figure out a fair way of distrbuting possessions in the unhappy event of failure. It's a contingency plan. You don't think about it till you need it, and then by God are you happy you have one.

 

And for reference.... another story.... a friend stayed married to her husband, had a terrible breakup, and became so vindictive that she spent £30k in legal fees to win £10k possessions because her father had the cash spare and wanted to make him suffer for hurting his daughter. Breakups are nasty, and it's all well and good saying "i'd never take advantage" ... you never know. People change.

[DN]

The traditional marriage vow "with all my worldly goods I thee endow" is the one and only marriage vow that is enforceable by the law courts when the marriage breaks up.

 

What this means is that everyone who marries has a pre-nup. You either have the default pre-nup provided by the legal jurisdiction in which you live or you can substitute one that you and your partner agree on and will be accepted as valid.

 

Since many people find the default pre-nup unfair when it comes to a divorce, a prenup agreed as fair when signed by both parties should make a divorce less hostile, if only for that part.

 

I imagine there are very few people who go into a marriage expecting a divorce but that is an emotional reaction. Rationally, one should look at the statistics and realise that it is a possibility - and that you may not ever want to divorce but that doesn't mean your spouse won't.

[d24]

Problem is, people change.

Worse still - who's to say a prenup you signed when you got married at 25 will be seen as fair when/if you divorce at 42?

I'd highly doubt it'd still be 100% relevent/fair....

So perhaps a prenup should be a reviewable/renewable thing (maybe marriage should be also)?

 

....contracts for romance....

[RayKay]

Guess what?

 

Those with prenups seem to, according to a few "basic studies", be LESS likely to divorce than those without.

 

Why? Well, my total guess is that it has couples discussing issues that are tough to discuss and most couples whom opt out of one "avoid" as they get lost in the "bliss" of weddings and romance. As unromantic as it is....weddings and marriage is not all about wedding dresses and cakes and extended honeymoons...

 

Not only does this allow you each to "know" a lot of truths about finances, etc BEFORE marriage, but it develops communication over tough issues. It also has you both know what is at stake...I am not saying this in a "I won't divorce as I know how much to lose financially way" but it does show you what divorce means, something many marrying in the romance of it all forget.

 

It does not make someone less committed to each other to want a prenup.

 

No one marries WANTING a divorce or believing it will happen to THEM. But it happens. On total average in the U.S. 50% of the time.

 

Personally for me, I have no qualms about a prenup agreement. To me isn't it more loving to say "I want to marry you because I love you. I am committed to this working out for the rest of our lives. But, in the alternative, I want us to make sure we are both cared for in the event we do part, and that goes for you just as much as me". Besides, doesn't it also say "I am marrying you as I love you, not for what I can get out of it?"

 

Prenups are also supposed to be fair to BOTH of you. I really don't see why she is so opposed. All they are meant to do is to protect assets you had BEFORE marriage, and perhaps make arrangements for spousal support in the future, etc.....they don't cover things you earn during marriage, etc (well, you can, but a court is less likely to uphold those parts if they aren't fair). But you can make agreements like whom would buy out the home, or whether one would pay out the other for business, rather than taking the business (if you shared it)....lots of things like that. The only thing you can't "bargain" is child support as the court needs to approve anything involving children.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

I absolutely agree that prenups are very important. However, what I find more disconcerting is that after only 5 months of being together, when you both are still in the honeymoon period, you are both talking about marriage when it is still early days in your relationship. Too many people make this same mistake...they are talking marriage at some unknown time in the future when the relationship is still very fresh. Many of those relationships end up going south and then the woman sits there wondering how it could all go wrong when the guy seemed so into her that he was discussing their future marriage so early on. As far as I am concerned, marriage talk should be reserved for the time when both sides are ready to actually consider marriage...not just airy fairy "wouldn't it be lovely" talk during the initial stage of the relationship.

 

As for prenups...if you have assets, a prenup is very very important. Marriage is indeed a business arrangment as well....just ask all the divorced people how much it turned into business and people got screwed over financially. You can still have the hearts and flowers and romance while being practical as well. As someone once said to me "I know the person I am going to be marrying but I don't know the person I could end up divorcing". It is not cheapening the romance by expecting a prenup...as in all things in life, you do have to be practical.