She's against a prenup, I won't marry without one, are we doomed?

[midnightrambler]

Also, a prenup doesn't just protect you from losing what you have now, it protects you from losing what you acquire in the future.

 

For instance, lets say a couple marries, and the man owned a business prior to marriage. 10 years later they decide to divorce. The company is now worth 10 times as much as it was when they got married, but the wife had no involvement with the company. Why does she deserve half of those assets?

 

Another example from another perspective. Lets assume a couple get married and through the course of that marriage, the husband manages to run up 100k in credit card debt. That debt is also shared. Why is it fair that after a divorce (with no prenup established) the wife gets stuck with 50k of the debt?

 

all seem very practical...

[Excalibur]

Debt it an entirely different element in civil court.

 

Debt incurred in marriage - is joint as the credit was extended jointly.

 

Both are affected in terms of a credit line until the debt is paid.

 

So whoever is most concerned about thier credit history and credit options is going to pay the debt.

 

Court does not take debt and segregate it out based on what was purchased, or who retains what assets.

 

Debt is between the debtor and creditor.....and the credit is going to hold the debtors liable until it is paid in full and they do not care by which party.

 

Been there, done that.

[yeahh]

Isn't the whole point of a marrige is to unite. so the good comes with the bad. The point of marriage is that you picked the right person for you. You should trust them that you wont get a divorce. If your not confident know your gunna be really screwed a few years into your marriage. You no that this argument is going to be in the back of her mind for a long time now. If you go in thinking failure you will fail.

[ghost69]

Isn't the whole point of a marrige is to unite. so the good comes with the bad. The point of marriage is that you picked the right person for you. You should trust them that you wont get a divorce. If your not confident know your gunna be really screwed a few years into your marriage. You no that this argument is going to be in the back of her mind for a long time now. If you go in thinking failure you will fail.

 

yep. then a prenup should be no problem. right?

[Miss Firecracker]

Prenup is especially necessary if a girl threatens to leave you over it.

 

This is one I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw her. I'd have signed one in a heartbeat if I'd been asked. If I ever get into a situation like that someday I'd have no problem with it. Too many people are taken advantage of after the love is gone.

[Hope_Springs_Eternal]

I think some people see marriage in terms of the wedding. The fairytale dress, lovely cake, happy relatives, loving bride/groom, the honeymoon somewhere lovely...

It all seems so 'wonderful' and exiting, and new period and start to our adult lives.

 

The reality is that the Wedding itself lasts a day, and that newlywed feeling about a year (less in some cases) before the scales slowly start dropping off your eyes and the lenses drop off your rose tinted glasses.

 

By the time your living the day to day grind, and cooking, washing, cleaning, general housework etc day in day out, month in month out, year in year out and its boring boring boring, THATS when the pre nup can protect both parties if they decide to separate and go their own ways. When the love had turned to familiarity or worse, and you just want out.

 

Ive got no objections to signing one if I ever remarry, in fact even though they're not legal here, they are beginning to be given weight (even to the point that no one could understand paul mcartney not having one)

[coco3]

I think if you should stick to your guns about the prenup. If you don't and you do end up divorced, you will wish to heaven you had signed one. If you don't divorce, it doesn't matter, does it?

 

I think everyone answers from their own personal experience and opinions, and when I married, I married someone who professed to always take care of me, be there for me and never to anything to hurt me. We did have a loving relationship that most people were envious of. Well, four short years later I'm divorcing someone who has already cleaned me out, would throw me under a bus for more except for the fact that if he did that he wouldn't get alimony. So the moral of the story is ----You don't divorce the same person you marry, otherwise you wouldn't be divorcing, would you?

 

Yes I wish I signed one, and yes I will when I marry again. Besides, it opens the conversation about how you both view and manage financial matters, a good thing to find out before tying the knot.

[Hope_Springs_Eternal]

 

Yes I wish I signed one, and yes I will when I marry again. Besides, it opens the conversation about how you both view and manage financial matters, a good thing to find out before tying the knot.

 

very very true, I think finances are the NUMBER 1 cause of most marriages going pear shaped

[Miss Firecracker]

The one time I came close to divorcing my husband I saw something in this man I never knew existed. We made it through that rough spot, but when I look back and remember the way he acted it makes my blood run cold.

 

You really don't know a person totally until you try to leave them.

[Girl79]

 

I don't think asking for a prenup should be taken as insulting. It's basically like saying, "Hey, I love you. I love you so much in fact that I'd like us to sign a piece of paper so that if, god forbid, something happens between us, me AND you AND our children will all be taken care of." How is that insulting?

 

 

Use that line when/if you bring it up again. A pre nup is really a deal breaker. I agree there should be a pre nup if there are expensive assets, and or businesses involved. It's a no brainer really.

[RayKay]

Exactly.

 

I know it takes the romance out of it, or the idealism of marrying the "perfect person" but the reality is marriage is not all about romance, and there are NO perfect people in the world. This has nothing to do with "thinking it is going to fail". It is just realizing that no matter what I think and believe, life does not always happen that way.

 

I adore my partner. I think he is a wonderful man and I cannot foresee him purposely trying to hurt me or "screw me over" ever. I am sure he does not see me doing that to him either! For me a prenup is a way of saying I love you. But even if things do not work out, I want us to consider now how to be able to be fair and respectful to one another.

 

I have never been married but I think I have a pretty "realistic" view towards it through not only those experiences of those near to me, but I have also been common law for over three years now with my partner and we have certainly had our ups and downs too!

 

I can easily count how many people I know whom married thinking it was forever and they would never in their right mind ever go through a divorce with their partner. I can count almost as high how many of them are either today bitter and resentful about the same person they once held in such "perfection" or are going through a divorce that is ripping them apart emotionally and financially.

 

There are no guarantees in life ever, I am optimistic, but I will not be naive to the reality either.

[bambina maxima]

Yeah, I don't think this is something you can compromise on. I think prenups are an opportunity to openly and rationally discuss financial issues, which so many new couples sweep under the carpet. After 30 years of marriage, the romance changes, as do financial landscapes.

 

The prenup is a prelude to fairness if the worst should happen.

 

We all have things we will not compromise on. It's tough, but it sounds like for you, this is a dealbreaker.

 

If you really like this girl and see a future with her otherwise, it probably warrants a few more serious discussions to figure out how unbending this is. Can you approach it something like "X, I know this is a sticky spot for us, and I just want to make sure we give it due diligence. I know that we both care about each other, but I want to make sure we are compatible on a few key issues before we take it too far and come to resent each other..."

 

I dunno. Tough spot. Good luck.

[coco3]

Now that I think about it, if she is acting like this now, when you are on the infatuation/loving side of things, I can't imagine how she might act on the divorcing/angry side of things. Like I said, if you stay married, it shouldn't be an issue, if she is so hesitant, maybe she thinks it won't last? Maybe this is me being a little too cynical....

[confused_guy84]

Wow, I thought this thread would have been buried by now! Thanks for all the replies.

 

Sorry, no updates on my situation yet. I'm sure the subject will come up again one of these days. Hopefully we'll be able to find some kind of compromise, if a compromise is even possible. But if we're both still being stubborn then maybe it's best to end it now. I don't know.. I really care about her so that would be a very difficult decision to make. Especially since our relationship is still new and to break up over something like this so early seems kind of silly, at least on the surface. Deep down I know it's an important issue, but part of me just wants to forget about it and hope for the best.

[just M.E.]

Using a condom takes the romance out of sex but it is still a valid and sensible thing to do. If everyone used prenups, it would be like shopping for your ring, "Let's go write up a pre-nup" "Ohhh, I'm so excited" See, connotation for he loves me and wants to marry me.

 

A prenup can handle things like estate and wills also, for a woman it's a big deal, she can determine how she wants her estate settled and it doesn't have to conform to state law, in a prenup the parties can agree to honor each others will.

 

Example wife's grandparents die and leave her a sizable inheritance. Husband and wife have a prenup that states each will honors the others will upon death. They agree to leave the inheritance from her grandparents to their children, he knows he is well off if she were to pass away and they both agree that that money should go directly to the children and not include him. The particular state they live in would have give him 50% in right of survivorship but by agreeing the prenup, they can make another choice and know that the will would not be challenged.

 

I can imagine there could many more, but this way a couple can make decisions and they have a guarantee the other will honor those decisions.

 

When a person dies, unpredictable things happen, interpretations can differ.

[Hope_Springs_Eternal]

The one time I came close to divorcing my husband I saw something in this man I never knew existed. We made it through that rough spot, but when I look back and remember the way he acted it makes my blood run cold.

 

You really don't know a person totally until you try to leave them.

 

reading that made MY blood run cold, because thats EXACTLY what happened to me.

 

I know that what Im about to say, some people will disagree with but this is my genuinely held belief. I think the romance of marriage is overplayed and people forget its a CONTRACT.

 

I believe the psychology of marriage is different to co-habiting where one or other of the party is often not 110% committed and theres an element of 'one foot out of the door'. Co-habitees often deny this and would argue they are as committed as a married couple and marriage is 'just a piece of paper' but ITS NOT.

 

That piece of paper gives you not only LEGAL rights, obligations and responsabilities, it is a PUBLIC DISPLAY OF INTENT. It makes you their legal next of kin, and importantly, their close family know and acknowledge this.

 

Often, families get behind newlyweds and help them sort out any differences and ease the path, and the couples own intention to REALLY try to make it work for better OR WORSE, really kicks in in a way it doesnt with less committed relationships. With a man and wife, people are not as ready to get in the middle, and will let the couple sort out their differences themselves or with family help.

 

On the other hand, with boyfriend/girlfriend situations (which is what co-habiting is) other people are more ready to get involved with he said/she said/they said gossip conversations etc etc, sticking their oar in and making unhelpful comments like "if its not working its not meant to be, get out while you can, plenty more fish in the sea blah blah" and the whole thing ends up like an episode of Gerry Springer.

 

The other difference with marriage is that with co-habitee's the two families don't always come together. Until the couple decide to take the step to comittment the couple exist side by side , but the families dont necessarily see themselves as related. A marriage is not only a legal and public joining of the couple, but of their two respective families also. They become 'in laws'.

 

All things considered, marriage is a very important contract, and as such the idea of writing things down that are important to you in advance of the ceremony is an excellent idea, because, if and when you do break up, that very extended family that was supportive and encouraging at the outset could turn out to be the worst adversaries you could ever dream of if they choose to take sides.

 

That one piece of pre nuptual paper that you wrote out when it was all romance and roses, could end up saving the day and your sanity.

[RayKay]

Hope_Springs,

 

I don't disagree with you on many of those points, as depending where you or who you are that is very much the truth of course!

 

Where we are located, cohabitation (after a set amount of time or if you register it) brings all the same legal rights (including being their spouse as "next of kin"), obligations of marriage via common-law marriage during the cohabitation and after it (though, many people don't realize this and move in thinking it is "less" than marriage...which is why I really urge people to consider cohabitation agreements too). There is not that public declaration via a ceremony usually (though, I know people whom have had a commitment ceremony for example without a wedding and marriage) of course which for many can change a mindset a lot more.

 

I suppose I am fortunate in that our close family & friends do acknowledge this mainly as it is very much the norm in our families (more so mine than his as myself, my brother and his partner and my parents for example are all in long term common-law relationships, but in his too) and respect our relationship (and neither of us have interfering family to be honest!) and accept us as a "family". Neither of us gets that "if its not working its not meant to be" kind of stuff fortunately!

 

I am just pointing out it is different for everyone and that not everyone whom cohabitates has "less" at stake or has that dynamic as you described. I mean, my parents have been together over 22 years (mother and stepfather) and have not married officially, but they certainly ARE legally united and united in every sense. Most are very surprised to find out they aren't married.

 

I am not saying of course for many others, it would not change things. A lot of it depends highly on one's perceptions of marriage as well as expectations (and those of their families, etc).

 

However, I also do accept marriage can change things too in other ways I have not yet experienced, so I am not saying it would not entirely, just making a distinction between the legal obligations/rights and other emotional ones. Mainly as my mother whom as I said has been with my stepfather over two decades, once told my sister recently the reason she did not want to get married again is because it "changes things"!

 

I think personally for me what would change is more the "perceptions" of those OUTSIDE our family/friends whom often feel the need to comment on why we aren't married in a negative way or ask why we aren't yet (as if it is means we aren't really a "couple") which always irks me.

 

(P.S. totally agree on why pre-nups are a good idea!).

[Hope_Springs_Eternal]

With respect, this is a perfect example of a co-habitee trying to convince that co-habiting is the same as a marriage.

 

I dont know you, but I like you. I have no reason to disbelieve anything you say and feel, and if your relationship is as important to you as a marriage, then it is, to YOU.

 

BUT, and heres the BIG but! even your Mum, a co-habitee of over two decades when asked why she's not married admitted it 'changes things', and on your own admission people are surprised to find out they're not married. Why though? if marriage and co-habitation are one and the same surely theres nothing to be surprised about?

 

There is a certain mind set that surrounds a marriage. Its even upheld by society, by outsiders to the relationship. They dont need to know you or be your friends, to understand the significance of being his or her spouse. The fact that you both chose to make that ultimate committment shows the importance of that person to you.

 

These new civil partnerships are an acknowledgement that co-habitees that put into the property and relationship financially deserve equal rights over it, and IMO are handy for that, granted, but only used by those who emotionally are NOT fully committed, otherwise why not marry?

 

But my main point is, that is it precisely that FULL emotional commitment that gives the relationship its best shot, and conversly, it is the same full on emotions that, having jumped into the relationship with everything that you have physically and emotionally and are invested in it, thats when the fighting and arguing can get so passionate and destructive when a marriage breaks down so far as to reach divorce.

 

...hence what a great idea i think pre nups are.

[DN]

Actually more and more people are co-habiting rather than marrying. I would not be surprised if it became the norm in a few years. And you can still have the equivalent of a pre-nup.

[RayKay]

Actually more and more people are co-habiting rather than marrying. I would not be surprised if it became the norm in a few years. And you can still have the equivalent of a pre-nup.

 

Exactly. Most of the couples I know are indeed cohabitating these days.

 

And yes, that is what a cohabitation agreement is for.

[RayKay]

They are surprised because they think they ARE married, because my point was there is NOTHING different about what they are doing or being that sets them apart from other married couples. They believe they ARE married because they certainly are fully committed to one antoher. That was my point.

 

As for why she says it "changes things", it has to do with a marriage she had with my father when they were VERY young - they had never lived together before marriage. She had a VERY idealistic/romantic view of it. She realizes however if she married my stepfather things would not change after this many years together - which is why she nor he feel the need to get married either. What would it change? No one whom knows them would think they are not committed to one another with all they have.

 

My partner and I ARE fully emotionally committed. So are my parents. They have raised their children together, gone through job changes together, the loss of their own parents, and my mothers own battle with Stage III cancer. They are truly best friends, and absolutely EMOTIONALLY committed to one another. They just choose not to marry as for them (and for me) being emotionally committed does NOT require marriage. People can get married for a lot of other reasons than being emotionally committed, and so marriage in itself does not to me say "they are committed". People can also be UNMARRIED and absolutely committed to one another.

 

Not everyone views marriage as the "ultimate emotional commitment" or requires it to "prove" to others that they are committed. That is truly a social construct/expectation. That was my point. If my partner and I know how we feel about one another and our relationship, what does it matter whether we are married or not? Why should this "ultimate emotional commitment" be in some places for example not allowed to those whom are gay for example? I just do not at all feel comfortable with how it can be the ultimate emotional commitment...but only for those whom society deems are allowed to make that commitment. And at the same time allows people whom are clearly NOT making that "full emotional commitment" get married after meeting each other on a drunken night in Vegas?

 

How can it be said that because a couple that has known another for a week or two got married is obviously "more emotionally committed" than one whom has chosen to live together unmarried for several years?

 

It's only in the more recent times that marriage has become this "ultimate emotional commitment". It used to be more like a bill of sale to transfer the "property" of the father (his daughter) to the husband.

 

As you said yourself, marriage IS a contract. And not everyone sees the need to have a marriage contract define themselves as a couple.

 

We knew when we moved in we were doing it fully with intention of spending our lives together. We have gone through a lot of our own struggles and changes since that time including buying our own home, me leaving my career to go back to school full time, my mothers illness, the loss of some of his family members, uncertainity with his own job and many other things that affect our lives in dramatic ways. No one whom knows us would think we were not fully emotionally and physically committed to one another and our lives together. I am not against marriage. I am just against the idea that it MUST be done to "validate" a couple whom is perfectly valid as they are, and can be just as committed to one another (and can also be more so) then a married one.

[Hope_Springs_Eternal]

Actually more and more people are co-habiting rather than marrying. I would not be surprised if it became the norm in a few years. And you can still have the equivalent of a pre-nup.

 

 

it already is the 'norm' isnt it? most people these days dont move from their parents home into the marital one, they have usually lived with a one or more partners before they marry, if indeed they marry at all because, as I keep being told, why bother? living togethers the same!

[RayKay]

it already is the 'norm' isnt it? most people these days dont move from their parents home into the marital one, they have usually lived with a one or more partners before they marry, if indeed they marry at all because, as I keep being told, why bother? living togethers the same!

 

I do think more people live on their own first though, whether they move in with someone when married or to cohabit, though first. I lived on my own for five years before living with someone for example, and my boyfriend lived on his own for almost ten.

 

I know very few people whom move directly from their parents home into living with a partner (and those that I do see have a rougher time).

[Hope_Springs_Eternal]

RayKay,

 

As I said before, youve just told me all the reasons that for YOU, co-habiting is the ultimate commitment. Im not arguing with that, because as you have already explained, within your family it is the norm, and indeed for quite a substancial portion of society also.

 

I wont make all my points twice, because Im sure once was enough for anyone reading! but I still stand by my comments and unfortunately, no amount of anything anyone says will sway me on this: I STILL believe, despite any argument to the contrary, that marriage is special.

[RayKay]

I was not attempting (or even thinking) of swaying your view. I was merely stating that that experience (for you) is not the same for everyone, or that everyone (myself included) views marriage as being required to be emotionally committed to someone. Or sees everyone who marries as being emotionally committed.

 

I am not in any way against marriage. My partner and I may, or may not, marry one day. It's not the cohabitating that is the "ultimate commitment". It was my choosing to be emotionally committed that was the "ultimate commitment". This is a choice that I just personally believe can be made independent of whether you are married or not.