Relationship With X

[John Bendix]

On a soul searching expedition in regards to my X and the relationship she has with our children, I asked my two adult sons to answer a question of mine as objectively as they could. I asked them, seperately, if I have done anything to hurt their relationship with their mother and was there anything I should have done or should do to help it?

 

The oldest (23) was very candid in response. He said that it was their relationship with their mother and not my responsibility seeing that their mother was irrational and hard to deal with. That she used guilt, demonizing of me, criticizing their choices, in order to get them to accept her and her decisions that have affected all of us.

 

The middle one (21) responded that I have done nothing wrong and whatever relationship that he has with his mother was up to him. He says that he simply ignores her attempts at manipulation and that she is his mother no matter how ignorant she acts.

 

They both said, as they have said all along, that I should just ignore her attempts to contact me. They do not know how I could have put up with her for so long. And that she has simply changed into a completely different person. That she's has gone and made her decisions but cannot take the ramifications for her actions.

 

I asked why they do not spend much time or interact much with her. They both said that, "It is just too hard". She tries too hard to try and show how nice a pserson she is. When they do not respond she gets critical of them at times. That she tends to blame everyone else for where she finds herself.

 

They know the things I have tried to do in regards to their relationship with their mother but saw each attempt fall into disaray because of the difficulty involved in interacting with her.

 

I do not know.

[Raoul]

John,

 

Coming out of her tailspin is what I hope and work for. But I think that holding on to that is part of my problem. Though its obvious to any observer that she's over the edge, she seems to like where she is and where she's going.

 

So what's left is crawling from the wreckage and getting the children clear of it. But the questions keep coming. I think that what you've asked your boys and how they responded indicates what a good job you're doing as a parent and a sentient human being trying to understand it all.

 

She fights with our kids, says I'm influencing them to 'hate' her, says she's 'fine' (her mantra), that she's not ashamed of anything she's done. She balked at MC, won't consider IC. She's gotten clear of me and likes that just fine thank you. She cannot or will not acknowledge the collateral damage.

 

Can they really do this after almost 25 years, 3 kids and a pretty good life for all that time? No remorse, second thoughts, wondering about how her kids will be and do given the trauma we're going through? It does not seem possible.

 

Yes, I understand her 'fog' in concept. But how do they do this and where can I get some of that?

 

Raoul

[lostandhurt]

Raoul,

 

To the question you asked John. In a word YES!

 

I have seen it and I am living it. My ex simply is not the person she once was and I have accepted that simple truth.

 

You will one day come to this conclusion.........

 

Lost

[John Bendix]

Can they do this? Yes, and they are. The commonality of it is amazing.

 

As for getting some of it, who wants it? I would not want to live my life in a fog. Lliving with walls barriers always up is just a low level of paranoia. I want to shed this egoic defense mechanism as unecessary and a masking of my true self. I see acceptance as the key to that end while denial is the antithesis.

 

It is a delusion for her to think that she is fine. The wall, created through the dysfunctional emotions of fear and anger, allows her to maintain that illusion. Her words are just that. Her actions and reactions demonstrate the fear and the anger that are guiding her decision making.

 

What's clear is that, to her, you are the source of all of her unhappiness. That statement itself is not true nor rational. The hostility she is showing, even after getting away from you, shows that the issues that she has, have to do with her and not you.

 

My X, as you read in her e-mail to me, still has a huge amount of anger with me. She has even admitted to such. Why, because the extreme anger expressed is still being created over and over again from the pain that they have accumulated in their life. Their dysfunctional way of handling it has not worked but they still, erroneously, try to deal with in the same way. How they are now is just a product of how they have trained themselves to react.

 

My point, as I have tried to relate to everyone here concerning the WAS, is that the issues will still be there with the one who walks away, in a desperate attempt to end their suffering, when their project of leaving is accomplished.

 

You cannot convince someone of anything, even that water is wet, when they live in such denial. It can be the most frustrating aspect, if you let it.

[John Bendix]

Raoul,

 

As for coming out of the tailspin, it may never happen. As been told to me by many therapists, some will live out their lives just "functioning" like this. They are addicted to this way of coping. Thier egos, which they have allowed to dominate their existence, will not seek any other way.

 

If everyone else is to blame for their unhappiness, why should they change? With this mindset, they can do nothing but keep changing with whom they interact. Or only interact with persons very similiar to them. This is a common feature.

[Raoul]

You cannot convince someone of anything, even that water is wet, when they live in such denial. It can be the most frustrating aspect, if you let it.

 

This then is the struggle, not to let it frustrate me. Is it just the passage of time that works best? Therapy may be helping, its hard to tell where I would be without it. But the anger, sadness, and yes frustration are eating me up. Yet, letting it go seems out of my reach for now. Its getting a llittle better.

 

I get upset at myself for not letting go and just accepting the reality of it.

 

I do agree that she'll live out her days like this. Her defenses are too well built, her thinking rational to her, if no one else. For now, I'm the cause of it all. When that no longer works, she'll find something or someone else outside herself to blame. I do know and sometimes even understand it. Somehow, that does not help me put it away.

 

The secret is in rebuilding my life. That work has begun. But the construction crew is distracted and maybe afraid. There is much to do. I have much to be thankful for. My children, myself, my health, my home. That's all good. But its time to clear the rubble. I know that, in a way, I'm living like wshe is, in denial. Any advice on how to let go and get on with it.

 

Thanks John,

Raoul

[John Bendix]

Acceptance is the key but without judgement of either the situation OR of yourself for being in it. Judging stops us from accepting. It just is, no matter how hard you want it to be otherwise, for in reality, how can it be different than it IS right now?. This OUR connection to the irrational that keeps us suffering.

 

For me, I would stop trying to not feel the emotions that I have, no matter how unpleasant they are. Once you experience the emotions, such as anger, hurt, sadness, hate, frustration, resentment, lonliness, etc., they are real for right now. But they dissipate almost as soon as your experience them. This is the same for our thoughts which cause most of our emotional reactions.

 

Again, when we judge them or ourselves for having them, or wish that we were not having them, we are not accepting what is. Through these reactions, we cause them to be created again in feedback when the mind evalutes the emotions and creates more thought along the same lines. It becomes a loop of thought-to-emotion-to-thought or cycle.

 

When in the cycle, we can begin to perceive that our emotions (and thoughts) are who we are and a part of us. Ths is maladaptive as nothing could be further from the truth. When we accept them for what they are, just fleeting thoughts and emotions and not a state of mind or being, their effects dwindle. In this acceptance, the suffering sems to diminish.

[Raoul]

Being somewhat judgemental by nature, I do most of these things. And you've helped me see that more clearly. Knowing that the ego will help in throwing all this stuff up for round after round is womething I get. I will fight it less and just try to have them pass like clouds in the sky.

 

Still though, taking it easy (as your PM suggests) is difficult. I began to read some of your writings and will take that counsel as best I can.

 

Raoul

[chrisparq]

do any of these women ever come back? mine is still lost at sea

[Raoul]

do any of these women ever come back? mine is still lost at sea

 

I see no signs and don't believe it will ever happen. Like a jerk, I wish for it.

 

Others may have some happier perspectives.

 

Raoul

[John Bendix]

do any of these women ever come back? mine is still lost at sea

 

Not if they retain the same mindset.

 

It is the same question as will they ever see through their actions, reactions and thoughts. As in any relationship dynamic where the couples have split up, there has to be change if reconciliation is the goal. The underlying issues that created the communication breakdown have to be adressed or their negative effects upon the relationship will again re-surface.

 

To the one who walks away, their issues and dysfunctional reactions have to be seen by them in order to change them. Unfortunately, their mindset is so maladaptive and their walls are so entrenched, that they perceive that there is nothing wrong with the way they are proceeding.

 

For the one left behind, their dysfunctional nature is often recognized (see link removed) and chnages implimented are denied to exist by the walkaway. The oft used phrase, "Too little, too late", reflects this denial but it really not too late. Open communication is the best remedy but they have denied themselves this tool. Emotional desperation has urged them to believe in this maladaptive generaliztion.

[chrisparq]

i guess thats a no...

[Raoul]

i guess thats a no...

Chris,

 

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

 

raoul

[John Bendix]

i guess thats a no...

 

Their emotional distress that is causing their mindset did not happen over night. Seeing the light will also take a long time, if ever. Admitting that they messed up is not part of their thought processes.

 

It is very rare and even if they ever "come back from the sea", the one who is left behind, has most likely moved on.

[John Bendix]

Chris,

 

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

 

raoul

 

For me, accept any and all outcomes.

[Hosedbywife]

Their emotional distress that is causing their mindset did not happen over night. Seeing the light will also take a long time if ever. Admitting that they messed up in not part of their thought processes.

 

It is very rare and even if they ever "come back from sea", the one who is left behind, has most likely moved on.

 

Met up today with the EX for a quick lunch and to give her a cd loaded with pictures of my 7 year old baseball pictures. For the most part we do get along.

 

Without much thought, I decided to throw her a curve ball and did the following. When we went to her car after lunch I told her that I wanted to have a quick talk with her.

 

It went something close to the following: You & I shared many years together that I thought were very good years. I am not out to replace her or those good years again with someone new, however the person that I have been dating is looking to see how serious our new relationship can be. I don't blame her since we have been together for about 8 months. She listened intently to my words without interrupting me to deny something said by me, (that's a first) I went on to state that I accepted my share of the responsibilty for the demise of the relationship/marriage and that I have learned so much about myself in the past 18 plus months since we were separated/divorce. I also stated that if I did not tell her that this now that I would not want to look back and be upset with myself knowing that I did not try at least one more time. I said that I realize that this was way to premature and that really no time had passed by to fully understand what the hell happened to us. I gave her two choices to make: 1. A definite NO or 2. A definite MAYBE.. That just maybe over time we could talk, continue to go out for lunches & dinners and explore some possiblity that we could once again like each other and then see where it goes. It was pretty simple, she took it all in and I told her to think about and when she wants to answer me she can.

 

The above is not every word, but enough to give you the facts. She indicated that she would think it over and let me know.

 

I am expecting the following response: NO, It is done- I am finished with you and which I at this point I will tell her thank you for the final closure of any possibility for us in the future. I would be in complete shock if she said yes. I did this to be outside of my usual manner of conducting myself with her. I could see that she was thinking about it, she cried and I left her with a smile on her face as I held her hand and kissed it and told her I meant every word I said.

 

Call me nuts, crazy or whatever. It won't change anything except bring me the final closure (which I had already anyway) so I can really move on with my current relationship. I have followed the rules from this site and I am not being delusional, I just want a final word to put this all behind me. It's not fair to my current GF for to be walking around and wanting something to come back that is not going to happen. Every move that my ex has made has led her away from me, I just wanted to give her that final chance. I feel quite good that I will be moving on with my current GF and not ever look back again at the ex as nothing more then the mother of my kids and a woman who walked away from me. I am at the point where alot of my emotions are gone anyway but I had to try against the tremendous odds anyway. I will let you all know what goes down.

 

Any questions, comments, oddsmakers, etc are welcome. A big thanks to John Bendix, Roaul, Benga and many others. This site has been like a best friend to me. I know this won't work, but if a miracle occurred and she said she would be open to the possibility then I have not even begun to think of what that might entail because I expect the NO and nothing else. PS: I could not do this if I did not have a current GF. I told her that anything less then a definite maybe is a flat out no, as well as no answer from her ever, which could easily happen, in order to keep me hanging on in limbo. That's not an option either. Thanks-Hosed

[chrisparq]

good luck on the kami kaze mission - this site i guess would not endorse the love dare.

[chrisparq]

would you really dump your current gf for this woman who put you through hell and could very well do it again even if the miracle occurs...

[Hosedbywife]

would you really dump your current gf for this woman who put you through hell and could very well do it again even if the miracle occurs...

 

I think that it is a 1 in 1000 chance that I would dump my current GF for my walk away wife. It's not really a kamakasi mission. She cannot answer the question in her current emotional distressed state. She thinks that by not answering the question then she can keep me in limbo.

 

Her parents now see that I have tried every which way to get past the wall. It's a done deal....over... She is never coming back. Thanks for the reply. Hosed

[John Bendix]

I do not know why you would think that you are delusional. I say if this is what you wanted to try, go for it. I did similiar things myself.

 

There are no rules in the chaotic environment of intimate realtionships. Most of us are passing on our experiences in smiliar circumstances. Some of us have noticed and commented on the irrational nature and surreal commonality of the actions taken by the WAS.

 

My only point, and it seems that you are doing this, is that you have to be willing to accept whatever outcomes comes your way in an unknown set of future events. Otherwise you will be open to accumulating more pain. I see all of life this way not just in these tough relationship interactions. Without expectation (hoping, wanting praying for that one outcome), disappoinment is not so harsh.

 

Trepidation of the future can only creep in when we fear the outcome we seek may not happen. In fact, our worrying about what can happen can so dysfunctional that some fear that their envisioned outcome WILL come about. "What will I do if that happens?". My answer is let's do what we do right now and then deal with the outcome when we can.

 

In other words, do what makes sense to you in this moment, and accept the events as they transpire when that present moment becomes real.

[Raoul]

My Mother-in-Law dropped by Friday along with one of her daughters. They do this from time to time. They want to stay close to our kids and are trying to 'include me in the family'. I do love these people. they've been part of my life for 28 years. 'Mom' said that she hopes that I can come to family events (this means where my wife and her boyfriend are) with other in-laws and cousins.

 

I said that this cannot happen. I will not go anywhere that my ex or her friend are, other than in passing. I will not tolerate the disrespect, lies to me and everyone she lied to (including her own family and her own mother) and wreckage that she and her jerk have wrought on our children, our family and my life. I won't miss milestone occasions. But I won't be hanging about for dinners, picnics etc.

 

My wife won't even acknowledge her actions, much less consider an apology. Without that, I have no use for her. You do not get to do things like this to our children or me with no consequences.

 

Both her mother and her sister told me that I may need to accept my wife's actions. They accept her and her affair partner (I do not consider him a man and have told them this several times).

 

I repeated that I do not have to accept this and will not. I am not to be treated this way by anyone.

 

The damage to my family, my children (much less me) has been awful and continues.

 

I know that 'blood is thicker than water' and get that they will line up with her and even her guy - yada, yada, yada. I thought I was being a person with values, standards and expectations. But they act like I should just get over it and hang out with them like nothing's happened. They cannot 'cast her out' and should not. But to just act like nothing happened that that we should "all just get along" is a bit much for me.

 

Am I being a putz about this? Somebody's crazed. With all I'm dealing with, it could be me. Help me out here. I need perspective.

 

Raoul

[chrisparq]

it might be worth doing just to prove everyone at the event what a big person you are - though might be painful to you....

[Raoul]

Chris,

 

I guess I'm a 'smaller' person than I thought. Being a 'big' person and encouraging my wife to 'have something of her own' away from me and the kids had her (in less than a year), ensconced in a new lifestyle (country line dancing and concerts - with all the drinking and carousing that goes with it).

 

Sooner rather than later, this included staying out 'til 3 AM (even when I was out of town and our 3 kids were by themselves). And not long after she was in a covert affair with an unemployed, multiple dui, divorced faux wannabe 'badboy'.

 

I caught her but she won't stop. Now we get to go through a very expensive divorce that has traumatized my children (much less me). The way the divorce is going, she'll get enough alimony so that her badboy will never have to work. They can just live off my back, fall off barstools and ignore our children.

 

I have tried not to be cynical about all this. But they and the courts make it too hard. So I've had enough of being the bigger person for now I think.

 

 

Raoul

[John Bendix]

Raoul,

 

Do what makes sense to you. I understand the cognitive dissonance you are experincing, I went through it not long ago in regards to my posted e-mail from my X and the soul searching I did afterwards. There are emotionally mental healthy ways to deal with dissonace and there are maladaptive ones also. Look it up on the web, if you like.

 

I personally do not see the need to prove to anyone that I am the "bigger" person. People will believe what they want to about me about me no matter what I do. I will remain true to my self.

 

I have accepted my X's actions, for they are real. I also accept who she has become. That does not mean I condone them.

 

I do not want to be involved in her toxic behavior and choose not to interact with it. I will not be an ingenuine person around her even if my children are around. I do not care what the Family Court guidelines are and told them so. There is no hostility from me to her, but I will not be phoney. That is her cross to bear. It is one of the major reasons that they do not interact with her that often.

 

My children understand this as all have told me not to answer her calls. They know that they will just be poisonious. They see me as genuine and I think that is important for their stability.

[Raoul]

"I have accepted my X's actions, for they are real. I also accept who she has become. That does not mean I condone them."

 

"I do not want to be involved in her toxic behavior and choose not to interact with it. I will not be an ingenuine person around her even if my children are around. I do not care what the Family Court guidelines are and told them so. There is no hostility from me to her, but I will not be phoney. That is her cross to bear. It is one of the major reasons that they do not interact with her that often.

"

 

John,

As always the voice of reason. Thank you.

 

My acceptance of what she's done and who she has become is still an issue. Like you, I will never condone them. And I know that accepting them is a key to healing myself and being the best for my children.

 

Staying away from her is certainly best for me and I do that with alacrity. It does help. I am not yet 'hostility free' but am getting there. In large measure that's because of this forum and your book. I am not snide or anything when she's around, but I cannot yet see her without having some anger.

 

Family Court would be a joke if its actions and decisions were not so toxic to families. Thanks for pitching in on that thread elsewhere. I know that divorce is awful and is neither fair nor just to anyone. But I am weary of the man-bashing after the way I've been mugged, raped, left for dead and then enslaved by the court system.

 

I am especially concerned about how my 3 children have been treated like baggage by a court system that bears their name and is charged with doing its work "in the best interest of the children". That would just be a bad joke if it didn't perform antithetically to children. But it does harm kids and its players know it. The cynicism is the worst. Such is justice in our age.

 

Raoul