Relationship With X

[Raoul]

So the wall can keep out everything, just as you say. Not being a physician, I've no idea if my ex is periomenopausal. But her age (and certainly her behavior) suggests that this could be a factor.

 

Depression is also likley as she lost er father last year and is not happy with her life, family or marriage.

 

No matter. "I'm fine" is her motto, even as her life dissolves.

 

Thanks John and all for your insights.

 

Raoul

[lostandhurt]

Raoul,

Many of us men of W.A.S. have looked for the smoking gun that caused our wives to suddenly do these things or act this way or that way. Me included. I presonally know of a young woman that changed drastically and her marriage was in the middle of a divorce when her family finally convinced her to see a doctor. She in fact had started menapause way early and the she had a chemical/hormonal imbalance. The divorce was put on hold and she accepted treatment. This was two years ago and the marriage is not perfect (none are) but they are happy and thriving. It does happen but it is by no means the only or the best reason for the W.A.S.

I came to know that it really didn't matter why as much as it was happening and I needed to take care of myself and my son through this terrible time. I could hardly convince my stbx that grass was green so convincing her that she had something wrong with her was out of the question. That is for her and her family now.

Your life is what needs to concern you now and accepting the reality of today.

 

I wish you the best

 

Lost

[Raoul]

Thank you Lost. I do attempt to live in the moment, accept what is and do what's necessary for my children and me.

 

I do still ask 'why' but not as much now. And I do wish things were different but know that 'hope is not a method'.

 

Virtually nothing happens for only one reason. I would like to have a better understanding of what happened, if only to make sure that what ever my contributions to the divorce were, that I don't make similar mistakes in the future.

 

Like you, I attempt to live in the present is important, both for my children and me. You are very right, the reason(s) matter less than getting and keeping my family on track. I hope that I'm learning the 'wisdom to know the difference' a little better each day.

 

Best,

Raoul

[John Bendix]

I think that the idea of forgiveness has to be incorporated with any discussion of our relationship with our X's.

 

We have been angry and emotionally upset with our X's (and others in our lives) for how we feel we have been treated by them. Of course, it is our reaction that brings about these feelings. We think about what happened, all of the things that you would have liked to do, liked to have said, would like to say, instead of concentrating on what we are doing right now.

 

All the while forgiveness is there for us to use. You do not have to pay a price for it and everyone can use it. Even if the person still acts and speaks in ways that we find horrible, as if they have no clue to what they are doing. Most do not but that does not matter. Someone does not have to ask for forgiveness for you to give it. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do".

 

When you give forgiveness, you free yourself of the anger, hate, bitterness, remorse, contempt, etc., that can end up as accumulated pain that we allow to rule our actions, reactions and thoughts. It frees us of the past and that brings us closer to acceptance of what is in this moment.

 

It is one sided but that is fine since it is within ourselves that causes these emotions and suffering. We cannot effectively fight ourselves. "A house divided upon itself cannot not stand".

 

Maybe then, we can forgive ourselves.

 

Just a thought.....

[Raoul]

Forgiveness sounds like the medicine I need. But I don't see it for a while. She is using the divorce to get her revenge on me. And with the laws in NJ/USA she will get it.

 

I have no issue with sharing half of all we built together. That's right and fair. But she also want $75,000/yr in alimony, despite the fact that she left the marriage, abandoned our home, took up with a 'bad boy' and flatly refuses to deal with me. By the way, she works, makes a good salary with terrific benefits.

 

Was I perfect? Far from it. But nothing I ever did or did not do warrants destroyimg me and dimming the future of our children so that she can fall off of a barstool for the rest of her life. In attempting to work on the marriage, she left couples counseling after 4 sessions, unilaterally cancelling the balance of the appointments. I was not abusive. I was attentive. I gave it everything I have and started personal therapy. I'm trying to own my contribution to our breakdown. But I get no clues from her, only legal documents.

 

None of it mattered. She burned us to the ground. Saying 'I forgive you' is easy. Beleiving it is something else again.

 

Raoul

[John Bendix]

Raoul,

 

It is easy to say it, but it does not to have to be said. To me it merely comes at a point of acceptance. Things are as they are whether or not there is blame. Blame accomplishes and changes nothing except recreating a host of unpleasant emotions within ourselves. Emotions that can lead to more pain and suffering.

[Raoul]

John,

 

Yes. I'm trying to let go of blame. I recognize that I played some role in all this and that her response was and is simply that, hers.

 

I do accept what happened. To do otherwise would be delusional.

 

Its dealing with the blowback from the divorce where she's using the system to extract several pounds of flesh that hurts the most now. What's she's doing is trying to inflict damage rather than just end the marriage. This jeopardizes my ability to do right by my children and provide for myself.

 

Raoul

[John Bendix]

In my case, the blame machine contiues to this day (If I allow contact). She is always trying to justify her past actions even though they were and continue to be selfish, and transparently so. That does not seem to bother those in their position. You cannot do anything to change your wife's actions, only your reactions to them.

 

I know that you are in a tough spot. My X told me once that if she did not get everything that she wanted that she would make the divorce go on forever. And I did not even want the divorce! I called her bluff in mediation. Fortuneately, her third attorney (the others "fired" her) wanted to get away from her so badly that he convinced her just to give in and get out.

 

Hang in there. It does not have to make sense but it will al come about.

[journeynow]

I think NOT forgiving is like holding onto resentment. I've probably already posted this, but I'll risk repeating myself:

 

"Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies."

—Nelson Mandela

 

One can get addicted to that poison, resentment, or anger, but it doesn't do you any good. That's not to say I don't have those feelings, but I know I'm *choosing* to have them and to even hang onto them, and I will feel better when I'm able to let them go.

[John Bendix]

journey,

 

I understand what you saying and I agree with fully-

[Raoul]

I think NOT forgiving is like holding onto resentment. I've probably already posted this, but I'll risk repeating myself:

 

"Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies."

—Nelson Mandela

 

One can get addicted to that poison, resentment, or anger, but it doesn't do you any good. That's not to say I don't have those feelings, but I know I'm *choosing* to have them and to even hang onto them, and I will feel better when I'm able to let them go.

 

It will feel better and I am working at it. I am mostly over the anger of the affair and breakup. I am now dealing with divorce and collateral damage. When things are happening all around you that must be dealt with due to the actions of a wayward and unapologetic ex., forgiveness comes hard.

 

In any case, efforts to forgive would need to be essentially continuous as money is spent for lawyers, psychotherepists for children, worry about other matters such as losing the home my children were born in and live in today. That's all after I 'let go' of the affair and her denials, lies, deceptions, anger and wrath.

 

I can't turn my cheek fast enough (or have enough cheeks) for all that. Am I missing something?

 

Raoul

[Raoul]

I think NOT forgiving is like holding onto resentment. I've probably already posted this, but I'll risk repeating myself:

 

"Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies."

—Nelson Mandela

 

One can get addicted to that poison, resentment, or anger, but it doesn't do you any good. That's not to say I don't have those feelings, but I know I'm *choosing* to have them and to even hang onto them, and I will feel better when I'm able to let them go.

 

It will feel better and I am working at it. I am mostly over the anger of the affair and breakup. I am now dealing with divorce and collateral damage. When things are happening all around you that must be dealt with due to the actions of a wayward and unapologetic ex., forgiveness comes hard.

 

In any case, efforts to forgive would need to be essentially continuous as money is spent for lawyers, psychotherepists for children, worry about other matters such as losing the home my children were born in and live in today. That's all after I 'let go' of the affair and her denials, lies, deceptions, anger and wrath.

 

I can't turn my cheek fast enough (or have enough cheeks) for all that. Am I missing something?

 

Raoul

[John Bendix]

Raoul,

 

Believe me, I am not telling that you, or anyone, has to forgive anyone, now or ever. I was just postulating that forgiveness may play a role in full acceptance. And not just in divorce and LTR's, but in all relationships amongst people.

 

The concepts of forgiveness and compassion, as they seem somewhat to be related, may be really hard in these situations. For me, there was and is no better place to practice them and incorporate them into my way of dealing with the world and the people in it.

 

I try to leave judgement up to a higher authority and doubt that authority chooses to judge.

[Raoul]

Raoul,

 

Believe me, I am not telling that you, or anyone, has to forgive anyone, now or ever. I was just postulating that forgiveness may play a role in full acceptance. And not just in divorce and LTR's, but in all relationships amongst people.

 

The concepts of forgiveness and compassion, as they seem somewhat to be related, may be really hard in these situations. For me, there was and is no better place to practice them and incorporate them into my way of dealing with the world and the people in it.

 

I try to leave judgement up to a higher authority and doubt that authority chooses to judge.

 

Thanks John. I do understand that the universe is indifferent to my (or anyone's) perspective. Things just are what they are. If that's forgiveness, Im already there.

[benga]

Hey - I don't think you can force or tune yourself into forgiveness. Its an act, an internal ritual, which will happen for you over time. Unfortunately, there aren't any firm timetables for this, but I assure you over time you will be able to accept the situation and in many ways forgive her for what has happened. I all likelihood by that time you would be in a very different personal place, and she, her reactions etc.. wont really matter to you any more.

 

I learnt this the hard way.. As time rolled along, I stopped thinking of her, her verbal attacks, things that kept coming my way.... You get immune to these things over time... The pace of my life continued.. The quality of my life improved.. I improved. Over the past 2 years, I have done things that I couldn't have imagined doing when we separated. My life is light, without stress, drama and in many ways, its really nice to becoming single, self sufficient, independent.... all while being a really good dad to my daughter.

 

For a long time, I was in the search of answers to what she might be thinking, what she might be doing, and reasons for why she became the way she did and said the things she did.... I researched, browsed every website... The truth really is internal... While she may or may not comeback to earth after literally having been abducted by a "aliens", you have no control of her or her situation...

 

There is alot of wisdom available out there.... It will take you a little in reaching an emotional place in which you feel secure...

[Raoul]

Benga,

 

Thank you. In a way, your words make it easier. If forgivenness is an action, its clearly one I'm having trouble with. If its a process that unfolds in time, then I will likely get there.

 

I'm not interested in revenge or anything like that. I do want to heal. And despite how all of this came down, I want to be happy.

 

That's more likely if forgiveness emerges from the healing rather than healing being blocked by the inability to forgive.

 

All the best,

Raoul

[journeynow]

I agree forgiveness can't be forced. Right now I'm not sure what I think about it but it is internal, a relaxing of the internal turmoil about a situation or memory.

[John Bendix]

"Forcing" an emotion is certainly not the way to proceed. Equally dysfunctional is denying that some emotion that you are experiencing is not really there.

 

"Trying" to feel a certain way bc it is the "right" way to feel is non-acceptance of what is. Forgiveness seems to come about when full acceptance of your life situation is realized w/o judgement.

 

When our reactions to our circumstances are hostility, anger, contempt, disbelief, and so on, forgiveness is certainly not possible. In having these unpleasant emotion reactions, we need to see where they are coming from and why we cause them to keep re-occurring. Forgiveness and compassion seem to come about only in the abscense of these emotions.

 

To me, the factor of time only comes about bc it seems to take a while, possibly through many stages, for us to accept fully the circumstances that have transpired w/o them inducing these types of emotional reactions. Which inhibit forgiveness, compassion, and acceptance.

[benga]

Thanks John.. This is exactly what I was getting at in my earlier post. Your articulation of it makes it all the more understandable. Life experiences and our dealing with grief has been so similar. Wow

[John Bendix]

Thanks Benga,

 

I have always appreciated and respected the way that you have dealt with the seperation from your wife.

[John Bendix]

www.GettinBetter.com

 

I just went to the article that is on this website which was posted in the Healing After a Break and Divorce section concerning BPD.

 

( )

 

I found it very interesting to say the least. So much of it depicted my X that I find it amazing. I think that I will do more study.

[Skinman]

John,

 

thats the article that I posted.. When I first read that it was as if I could have written it myself.. It fit my stbxw to a tee. It was scary seeing how she had most of the symptoms and I never knew about it or even considered that she might have a problem... Looking back the signs were always there I just didnt understand what I was dealing with.

[John Bendix]

Skin,

 

This was a great find.

 

Borderlines can leave solid, long-term attachments/marriages very suddenly. You'll be feeling shocked and bewildered by this--particularly when she cites frustrations or problems you were never made aware of, to justify her abrupt departure. You might vacillate between numbness and tormenting confusion, but what's even worse, is she'll have you thinking you're responsible for this outcome! When you've done virtually everything to keep her satisfied and happy throughout this relationship (which has included putting your personal needs and desires aside to accommodate hers), you're left only with a sense of sheer exhaustion, painful craving and deep betrayal.

 

Abrupt departures during mid-life are particularly significant, because while she could have been exhibiting borderline symptoms for decades, these may become far more pronounced during marked hormonal changes, such as pre- or peri-menopause. This concern is also heightened with regard to menstrual cycles, PMS, pregnancy, ovarian removal and/or hysterectomies, etc., which can easily catalyze more acting-out behaviors and psychosis.

 

Rebound relationships are extremely common among Borderlines, and leave men feeling used and discarded--but the same disturbing patterns that you wrestled with during this relationship, are replicated with other suitors. It's literally just a matter of time before they'll meet with a similar fate, and be suffering as you are. In short, your Borderline will not miraculously become normal/well with some other guy! Her disruptive behaviors stem from deeply entrenched survival reflexes. Without highly skilled therapeutic intervention, she just can't help herself.

 

Borderlines are narcissistic--but you've also observed other problems, like; desperate attempts to gain attention, intense/irrational abandonment fears, lack of empathy, extreme jealousy, lying, poor impulse control, extramarital affairs, drug/alcohol abuse, hypersexuality, 'crazy-making' interactions, low self-esteem, rebound relationships, passive-aggression, cognitive distortion, self-harming behaviors, eating disorders, suicidal ideation, stalking, etc.

 

I took just a section from Shari Schreiber's article and pasted it here.

 

In my X's case, her mother (a woman who would not hurt a fly, very self-absorbed and shy) never showed her nor her sister any affection. In fact, it seems to me when I met my X (she was in her early twenties) she was the care giver of the family. Her mother did not drive, or know much of anything (immigrant). The father had just walked out on her sister's eighteenth b-day and said nothing to anyone. Coincidental? The only attention she received from her mother were things like nice clothes or jewerly.

[Raoul]

Thedaps,

 

I'm eight months out from her breakaway and there are still few-to-no clues at the scene of the crime. My kids and I are 'crawling from the wreckage' as best we can.

 

John is right. Sudden departures in mid-life, especially after a long marriage, are destructive beyond belief and not only to spouses and children. The collateral damage includes her family, my family, our friends - in short everyone. While 'she' seems immune from the hurt and blind to the destruction, it is really difficult to see how that is possible. But perhaps it really is that way for them.

 

John's book is helping me to make what little sense of this that I can. And it is helping me be a better Dad as my children (17, 15, 12) attempt to deal with this. And I say 'deal with it' because there is no such thing as making sense of it. As my therapist (a new addition to my life) says, "you cannot make sense from nonsense".

 

If the light (for her) ever comes on, we will all be a long way from here. I do know that waiting for that is not the way forward for you and those you love, including 'her'.

 

To be sure, I have heard of 'recoveries'. But they seem rare and always involve the afflicted having a moment when they look around and get that something is very wrong and that they have a big job to do to embrace it. That may never happen and I cannot hold my breath any longer.

 

I wish you well. I have found this thread and John's book helpful. Perhaps you will too.

 

All the best,

Raoul

[Raoul]

thedaps,

 

I hope that you are right and that you can approach this the way you'd like. For many reasons, I could not. Perhaps, I think, because my wife had 'checked out' long before she left.

 

Keeping your fear and frustration at bay as you attempt this may help. I argued and did everything I could to get her to stay. None of it worked, much of it was likely wrong. Its like she couldn't hear me. More likely, she was just resolute, distraught and, most importantly, done. These are not matters or 'intelligent professionals' and 'fixing', at least in my case they weren't. Yes, we are professionals. But this is an entirely emotional place you find yourself in. Reason didn't work, nothing worked.

 

All that you now, do, even all that you were already doing is likely to be seen as 'too little, too late'.

 

Wishing you well as you attempt this.

 

Perhaps the 'backstory' on this is already out there. Any of that you'd care to share?

 

Best,

Raoul