Relationship With X

[John Bendix]

thedaps,

 

Sorry that are in the situation that you are in.

 

No, I won't say that you have missed the point. There are an infinite number of opportunities to see it. The point of it all will come to you when you are ready to accept it. I can only tell you what came to me. That moment of insight that came as the result of this situation. It is the "essential wound". The pain and suffering so acute that you are either forced to see the light or live in that horrible state of mind. Because of the way the ones who have walked away have reacted to their perceived situation, they have set up (and practiced) their approach and continue to use it out of habit. This is one of the reasons that they may never get it.

 

This explains, somewhat, the emotional condition of the one walking away. They reach that same point in which they feel compelled to escape from that horrible state of mind. Unfortunately, their way of escaping does little to diminish their suffering. The pain is still there but they push it behind the "wall" that they have created and maintain in self protection. The wall to protect themselves from the pain that they have accumulated inside and any stimulus from the outside that they perceive to be potentially harmful.

 

The most potentially harmful emotional stimulis, as perceived by anyone, is that of their intimate relationship. In their vulnerable emotional and mental state, to be suffering this much, they perceive that it is the relationship that is causing their pain. To them, escape is the only answer.

 

This is highly dysfunctional and their actions, thoughts, and reactions reflect this. Rationalization and justification for their actions seem to be illogical and irrational due to their dyfunctional approach. Their approach leads them further down this irrational, closed off, and selfish path in emotional and mental survival. Rational interaction seems to be very difficult and to them, counterproductive to what they feel compelled to do, get away and start again.

 

The point is that is hard to accept that you are causing all of this pain and suffering. It is your reaction to your perceived life situation, that causes the unpleasant feelings that you experience. I see this in all my worldly interactions and not just in this scenario. It is not what she (or anyone else) is doing, feeling, or saying, that causes the pain. It is our reaction to it.

 

Did you check out link removed?

[Raoul]

my wife, who is a neuropsychologist and well grounded (not some flake)

 

You are suffering from the delusion that everyone who goes through this (except your wife of course) is some kind of flake. My wife of 24 years is a Ph.D. (with post-doc fellowships) computer systems engineer. She was a great lover, wife, mother, daughter, sister - you name it. I am a Ph.D economist with a distinguished career. We had a wonderful and fairly typical marriage, family and life.

 

That's not what this is about. Best to understand this now. Maybe she does respond 'rationally'. For your sake, I hope so. But, if you're where you think you are, neither your nor her logic will help much if at all. So beware.

 

Raoul

[John Bendix]

^ ^ ^

 

Point well taken.

 

Intelligence does not necessarily denote emotional stability, no matter the field of expertise. My X's B.S. was in psychology and is in complete denial that any of what she had learned pertains to her.

[Raoul]

No. But the sooner that you recognize that you're in a very strange place, the better off you'll be. I am not sure what I would do differently if I could go back. Maybe give her her time and space as completely and as soon as possible (though I do not suggest or recommend that you leave the marital home).

 

I still haven't given up and I don't think that John Bendix has either. What I struggle with is just trying to 'get' where I am. It is a totally alien place. And I surely made many mistakes thinking that I could reason, plead, beg, argue of do all ot the things I did to preserve my marriage and family.

 

Raoul

[Raoul]

thedaps,

 

I am in love with my wife still. But I recognize that its my memories that I'm in love with. She really does need the time and space to even set the context for gaining perspective. I will only discuss our children and the divorce with my wife unless she raises another issue and deals with me respectfully (which is rare-to-nil).

 

Meanwhile, work on yourself. This may or may not include dating or such. But be sure to do things that help you (the usual - diet, exercise, maybe therapy). Build you, emotionally, physically, spiritually (of you're of a mind). go to those concerts, lectures and events you've been meaning to go to. Maybe take a vacation.

 

Be there for the others in your world. I spend a lot of time with my children and even her family and our friends (who are just as mystified by all this).

 

She may or may not see you as a partner again. If she does, a big piece of that will be because you've rebuilt yourself and become who you want to be independent of her.

 

You can do this,

Raoul

[benga]

thedaps - there is alot of good advice out here on this board. While each situation is unique, there are startling similarities in behaviours that are displayed by the WAS - Walk Away Spouce. Whether or not they ever come back or see the light is something that is still unknown. I haven't seen any reseach or statistics around this. Trust me, I would have gone to every site just trying to check, in my desparate bid to understand and save my marriage. While you can save your marriage alone, you must have to understand that the odds are greatly against you since you will be going at it alone without any support from your spouce. Whatever happens, I promise you, that you will come of this stronger, wiser and better equipped to handle future situations.

 

For the rest of you out there, John and my friends for the past 2+ years.. An update, and a funny one too. You are aware that my wife left us over 2 years ago.. No affairs, but the same dysfunctional behaviours thru n thru. Back in November we went on a family vacation and she came along. But no real progress. Still very much the victim, everything still my fault, and she has no contribution whatsoever.. All this till date, 2.5 years later. Well, I have been toying with the idea of divorce and did get to meet with an attney. I got him to prepare just a draft of what the petition looks like, so I could share the same with my ex and proceed with a divorce of mutual consent. I did that. We met for dinner 2 weeks ago and I told her that I was thru, thru with trying, thru with wanting this family together and that I have the best years of my life ahead of me and I want to be free and that we should call it quits. What followed was comical. Her expressions, her excuses, her comments. Clearly, she doesnt want it, but at the same time hasn't committed to giving it to me. Its been 2 weeks since the papers have been with her. Each time i broach the subject, there is total avoidance from her. Comical, dysfucntional stuff. Some of her comments.

 

- "what will happen to me"

- "what will happen to X (our daughter)"

- "what will the world say. They will call me a divorcee"

- "I don't come from a family where people get divorced"

- "X (our daughter) wants me to come back home"

- "You have changed so much over the past 2 years"

- "why couldn't you have been like the way you are today, all through your time with me"

 

2 weeks on, when I checked in and asked if we could proceed

- "oh! the divorce papers are lying with me.. I forgot"

- "I have been very busy. Didn't have time to read the papers"

- "I will have to speak with my friends, and see if I can come out of this"

- "I don't know, what will happen to me"

 

Classic. I have been feeling very amused the past couple of days and vindicated of sorts.....

 

Another development and I thought I'd share it and get perspective, and I know this is something I am not going to go after. I met a woman. I felt a great deal of attraction. I really enjoyed spending time. I really enjoyed speaking.. Till I realized, she is just like my ex wife.... Every bit of her. She too walked away from her marriage and the similarities between the 2 are absolutely startling. Emotionally immature, selfish, spoilt, weak etc... Good Lord! Are these the women I get attracted to... I was able to recognise this and backed way off in advance...

 

Just be with me and hope my divorce comes through without any more drama!!

 

Cheers

Benga

[lostandhurt]

thedaps,

 

I see another soul has shown up here like we all have. Welcome. It has been over a year for me and with the help of others here I have learned a great deal about myself but I am still at a loss as why she walked away. I do not search for the answer anymore as it was leading me away from healing and my life.

There are things you will do that will make your wife "pissed" because you are not making it easy on her. They "W.A.S." want to be angry at their spouse so they are justified in their actions. It simply can't be them so it must be you. My stbx went back 12 to 15 years to dig up stuff to justify what she was doing. There is no logic in this situation, and actually the more logical you are the more they move away.

You have found the right place but I wish you didn't need to be here.

 

Lost

[lostandhurt]

Benga,

Wow has it been that long already? You are a saint my man!

My stbx is dragging her feet as well. I am not even close to even being cordial to her and there is no chance we will be together ever again so I don't understand why, but that seems to be a common theme here doesn't it. She is always to busy to do what needs to be done but she only works 4 days a week and maybe 4 hours at a time! I can't wait to get this over with........

 

Thanks for the update

Lost

 

Glad to see your vision is good enough to spot trouble like you did. I am a little worried about that myself.

[lostandhurt]

I felt much like you do right now. I do NOT feel that way now though. I too worked my butt off so we could have a nice life but it wasn't enough. She was not happy inside. No friends, no interests and I would have to badger her to call her old friends back when they called from time to time. Trying to make someone happy is a losing game. These unhappy people can't believe they are the problem so it must be the closest person to them (except the kids of course) which leaves the spouse. So they discard you so they can be "happy" leaving behind a mess. Their selfish actions are justified by the rewritten history in their minds of just how terrible you are and how they have put up with you all this time. You will not see this now but in the near future your vision will clear and you will start to see that at the very worst you are only 50% at fault for any of this.

 

The happiness she seeks is imagined. She may latch onto someone or something to make herself happy and then it will wear off and on to the next thing. Think only of what you can control and leave the rest where it belongs.

 

keep posting

Lost

[journeynow]

People mostly get into relationships and marriage, not for the material things, but for the interaction with the person they love. It takes attention to keep a marriage, not stuff. If you yourself set a standard of living that you want to achieve, and put all your focus on achieving that through working long hours, don't blame your spouse if they didn't want the "things" so much as the quality time with you. How can you grow together if you don't spend time together? I'm not saying this is the case for you, but in general. I know it's frustrating to not feel appreciated for working hard and long hours, and sometimes job pressures give you little choice. But recognize that choosing time at work over time in a relationship has its repercussions. You may be choosing working hard for status, or other benefits, not related to being a "good provider". My husband is a workaholic, not for material gain, but I believe he *needs* to work so much feel good about himself. I'm a little sensitive about this topic, I work also and am not high maintenance, do not need more than the basics for shelter and clothing and transportation, so it was never me that was the cause of his working so much.

[John Bendix]

Benga,

 

Nice, huh? I am not amazed by much anymore.

 

The questions that she seemed to ask where probably the same questions that you were asking yourself 2+ years ago when she left. I can see where comical and dysfunctional can go together. The irrational responses would be fit for a comedy show like "Seinfeld" because they are so ludicris as to be hysterical. Unless of course, it involves you and your family. Then it tends not to be so funny.

 

As for avoidance, that does not surprise you. One of the key dysfunctional tools used to circumvent anything that can be percieved by those as potentially harmful.

 

Nice to hear from you-

[John Bendix]

Could not agree with you more.

 

I worked because I wanted to put food on the table. The material objects and the brand of clothes that my kids wore were of no consequence to me.

I've never listened much to what "other people had".

 

I lived to come home to my wife and kids. I waited up at night for my wife to come home from work after I put the kids to bed. I truly wanted her to be home with me. What else is there?

[Raoul]

Yes. Home is everything. If we work a little harder to make it nicer and with a more secure financial future, its worth it. That the WAS seems to only want NOW (and not you and not here) is hard. The 'backstory' on how to make it all work seems lost on them.

 

I was never much for the story of the grasshopper and the ant, but it describes my marriage well after my wife began her exit. She couldn't spend enough. I guess it was one of the first signs I misses, In retrospect, maybe she was trying to spend herself happy which is a fool's errand. But no more a fool's errand than trying to pay for it all which is what I did.

 

Its not about money, its about happiness, contentment, contribution and looking out for each other. WAS' can't seem to find any of those, with or without financial security.

 

Raoul

[John Bendix]

Raoul,

 

My X did try to spend her self happy at the end. I gave her so much money to buy things but of course the ego is insatsible in its desire to amass materials objects in a futile attempt to enhance itself. There's always something that it lacks and therefore needs to gain that split second of fufillment.

 

One of the danger signs that therapists look for in emotional disorders is excessive spending. Spending just for the sake of doing so, over and over again. As with every addcition, there needs to be a way of sublimenting the cash in order to do so and nothing else becomes more important than that.

 

I heard, "We need to make more money!", many times near the end.

[Raoul]

John,

 

Sad to hear you say that but happy that it was not my imagination. Our credit card bill reached $7 to $8 thousand a month (paid in full every 30 days) for at least the year preceding her exit. In addition, we were going through $1,500 a month in cash (groceries were on the credit card). Whe would accept no scrutiny of her spending and said things like she 'needed to buy coffee in the morning and lunch at work'. It was all quite insane.

 

She agreed to a weekly $150 (her amount) and I took the cash card. Within a week she was shrieking for it back. How much was going to 'boyfriend' at the end is anyone's guess. But that's a small matter. It went on before him.

 

I'm most ot the way done with your book and it is frightening how your and my situations ran parallel. I thought that it was impossible for a relationship to be as one-sided as mine and that I had to be crazy to see things this way. I thank you for sharing your story and showing me that it can be that lopsided.

 

Best,

Raoul

[John Bendix]

Raoul,

 

If you go through the thread that we are on right now, you will see that you are not alone. That the events that took place in your situation are so similiar that it is almost errie.

 

A couple of months into my X's episodes, I called my oldest friend who told me he had just gone through a similiar situation for a year. He told where to go to gain insight and helped by telling me what not to do. A friend of mine in Iowa could not believe bc his next door neighbor of 15 years had a similiar and what he called "bizarre events" with his wife. The guy that I helped run his select baseball teams told me of his first marriage and how my situation was typical. A therapist I called for help (friend of a friend) told me everything that had probably happened to me before I even told her. She told me what was going to happen and she was correct to a frightening degree. Too many more personal examples to name.

 

My X's gynocological endocrinologist told me that through his experience of 40years that my marriage would probably not survive due to my X's problems.

 

When people tell that my X was just not happy being married to me or there is always a reason for someone to leave, the X is a an X for a reason, people have a right to be happy, the kids will get over it, and any other rationaliztions and sayings, I have to look to all of these cases, and their commonality, and I am forced to conclude that there is a strong possibility that rational decision making was not in effect.

[John Bendix]

Raoul,

 

To comment on the money, my X was forced in mediation to pay all of her credit cards (about 8 G's) herself from the settlement she received from the equity in our house. The card was not in my name but the court could have made me pay half but concluded that she went on an excessive spending spree, knowing that she was going to get out long before she filed for divorce.

[John Bendix]

My youngest (16 and the only minor left) just told me that his mother called him this week. He has refused to go stay with her at her place and shuns her guilt trip phone calls. He, or the other two boys rarely see or talk to her. While none of them will say anything to her about anything concerning our former family because they do not want to upset and see her go off on a tirade.

 

He said she started to go through all that was done to her in our marriage out of the clear blue sky. He told her that she was not telling the truth because he was there and to please stop. He told her that he hoped that she was getting better but it appears that she is still not making any sense and that she may never see the truth. She started getting upset and defending herself and her actions. This is almost 3 years later. He said he had to get off the phone. It is very sad.

 

Her saga continues.

[John Bendix]

It is Mother's Day and my kids are dreading it because they know that they are going to receive an intense guilt trip from their mother. It is sad that they do not want to interact with their mother. It is even more sad that she does not see that it is her actions and behavior that has caused, and continues to cause, the estranged nature of their relationship.

[Raoul]

John,

 

Our three children are with her and her family now. They left around 3:00 PM. Its a Mother's Day dinner for her family. I made sure that they all had gifts and cards. She is, after all (trite but laden term, eh?), their mother. Its good that this happens in a crowd I guess.

 

The whole crowd acts as if nothing has happened although my 17-year old says that there is a fair amount of "who farted" silences and looking around at these events (his phrase but not unfunny). So far as I'm concerned, silence is assent.

 

I hope that yours are back soon and none the worse for the experience.

 

Raoul

[Raoul]

What else is there without hope? But neither hope not waiting will get you back to being safe on shore. The embodiment of hope is in action.

 

My hope is fading but not yet gone. But I'm deep in the legal aspects of divorce which I hope you can avoid. My actions are mainly about my children and me now. I will get them on their way in life and as a joyful warrior. I will thrive again, though how that happens is murky. I hope she'll come along. But I don't think so.

 

I tried marriage counseling but my soon-to-be-ex balked after 4 sessions. Will your wife try this?

 

I am in individual counseling? Will you try this?

 

You may need to attempt different things. And ultimately you both will need to work on what you have, whether to fix it or end it. This is more than simply 'do something, even if its wrong'. But for me, without someone on the other end willing to take a risk, we're done.

 

Perhaps what she's doing is (conciously or not) using you as training wheels and safety net as she moves away from you. Right now, she knows that you're there. So if she gets scared or hurt, she can come right back, 'no fault'. If so, this isn't good for either of you.

 

Hope for the best, plan for something worse,

Raoul

[Raoul]

thedaps,

 

That's all good on your end. I heard some of this too (especially the part about being a better man). But for her, that was tempered by her belief that I would relapse back to the man she's become disenchanted with if she decided to stay. It was smashed by her unwillingness to end her affair, something I could not live with (and something absent in your case if what she says can be taken at face value?). I got all this too, but it was lie after lie.

 

I am now suspicious of words because I heard so many untrue ones as she tried to eat and have her cake at the same time. That's a lens I cannot shed at present that should not color your vision. Just make sure that you watch what she does, taking what she says with a box of salt.

 

Wishing you well,

Raoul

[benga]

i still dont get it - one day she talks about being apart, then the next day i offer a foot rub for her headache during kid exchange and she accepts it - like i keep saying - the little signs of hope are the killers

 

thedaps - what can I say... Absolutely.. Everything that you see about her, her actions, her words, her behaviours is and will be confusing. Something has naturally snapped inside and the reactions and responses that you are getting/receiving from her aren't what they used to be and what you expect. Naturally you will be confused. It is very natural for you to hold on to hope and these feelings will remain with you for a while. Any changes that you show to her and force upon her will have little or no impact. She will view them as manipulative and naturally you will get hurt when you receive a reaction you are/weren't expecting. Its not easy, but over time, you will slowly understand the inner workings of a WAS and its complex. Trust me.. When you begin understanding it you will realise that anything you do, say and act out will have no impact. Its fruitless. She has naturally shut down to you.... Whether the walls she has erected around herself recede, strengthen, collapse.... who knows... You need to keep a look out for yourself at this stage. She will find ways of trasferring her guilt onto you. She will hold you responsible for everything that has gone wrong. She will dig up things that happened 15 years ago. She will use family, friends and all those close to you to ally up with and make you look like the bad one!! These are typical.

 

All you can do is go on with your internal changes, personal growth. She may or maynot see them. The grass will never greener on the other side of her escape, but there is nothing you can do. She needs to realize these herself.

 

I can totally relate to your anguish, feelings of longing, hope, emptiness, fear..... You will be better over time. Things will fall into perspective. These feelings of longing, hope etc. will transition into distaste, disgust & over time you will feel sorry for her.

 

My two bits... You can deal with this time constructively or destructively.. Your choice entirely...

 

Constructive behaviours would include - getting yourself a life, independance, a good workout, new friends, new wardrobe (i am sure you are loosing weight a new hobby....

 

Destructive behaviours would include - leaning on substance (alcholol, smoke), displaying needy behaviours like crying, begging, pleading etc, using friends & family to mediate, buying gifts, acts of service, physical affection etc...

 

We have all been there.. Just my 2 bits.. Have been seeing this for over 2 years...

 

Wish you strength thru this incredibly devastating journey.. But you will make it through in 1 piece.. That's a promise.

 

Cheers

Benga

[John Bendix]

how are the destructive behaviors destructive - for example, does bringing over a few groceries when i pick up our child hurt my cause, or is it just neutral to the cause....

 

It can be destructive and especially to you if you anticipate a certain outcome. This can create the feeling of disappointment. Which can even lead, through repitition, to a fear of what will happen in the unknown future.

 

If you do something and are willing to accept whatever outcome arises, then your chance of a painful reaction (by you) will diminish.

 

Please heed the words of Benga. He knows of what he speaks.

[benga]

Thanks John... You are always so articulate and put things into such wonderful perspective, it just makes more sense ;-)

 

I am struggling with my X. I gave her the draft of our divorce papers nearly 1 month ago.. She is really dragging her feat. Strange excuses all the way. Too busy, can't understand the legal mumbo jumbo, what will happen to me, what will happen to daughter.... so on & so forth.

 

I dont want to sound crazy, but I am really enjoying putting this pressure on her and seeing her expressions, listening to her excuses and voice quiver. Its interesting when the ball is finally back in your own court ;-)

 

We met again yesterday. My daughter picked up a minor injury on her thigh, so I went over to see her. I really had the pleasure of initiating the "D" conversation. While she has acknowledged all the personal changes I have made over time (honestly, there have been multiple), I had the pleasure of telling her politely that I haven't seen one visible change in her and that things will not work out and there aren't any hard feelings. Her expression was comical.

 

I must confess - deep down I was "hoping" that she would be released from the alien ship and come back to earth. I think she has. I think she has realized that the grass is never greener. I think she misses the "concept" of a family. There is too much ego, too much pride for her to accept that she made a mistake. She doesn't know how to say sorry for destroying a family and changing our lives forever. She has a problem of accepting my new home as her home and my new stuff as her stuff (these are non-issues from my side). Bottom line, is she wants to come home, but doesnt know how.. She doesnt want to loose face with friends and family, for it was she that began the alien spew to everybody I knew 2+ years ago. She does not want to feel guilty for what happened.

 

She has come along with me a few times for dinners and parties with friends. She has come along for holidays that I would typically would have spent with my daughter (daughter was thrilled)... We are planning another vacation later this month and the X is wanting to come along as well.

 

For the newer folks out there reading this, trust me, after 2+ years of this WAS nonsense, you will be very immune. Hope, longing, care, affection ceases to exist. There naturally is history, so there will be some sort of feeling of protection that exists and you will never want to see your spouce/ex-spouce hurt, exposed or taken advantage off.. You will see her/him in a very different light, difficult to bring words to, but I promise you, you will be fine...

 

 

Good day everyone!!!

 

Benga