Relationship With X

[lostandhurt]

Raoul,

My ex went back 15 years to compile "reasons" or "justifications" for her actions. She added more and more as the people she told them to thought that it did not give her a good reason to cheat on me. She then began to act like the betrayal had nothing to do with her leaving, like it never happened.

It affected me at first but now I think it is pathetic.

 

John,

Since my ex cheated she desperately wanted to convince me it was my fault so I would never tell my son. I do not plan on telling him unless he asks and is old enough. I will give her the chance first and then I will tell him the real truth. If needed. This hangs over her life like a black cloud. I am so happy I do not have to live like that.

 

Lost

[Raoul]

Lost,

 

I guess in some twisted way, affairs and betrayals like this 'come out of' what they see as a broken marriage. For me, they are very different. Pretending that one follows from the other is crazy. But we cannot deny that it happens a lot.

 

My in-laws think of it as one thing. For me it is most definitely two. We could have gotten divorced. It would have been unpleasant, maybe ugly. But the affair and the deceit, disrespect, lies and all of it committed by the person you are most vulnerable to in this world makes it wholly different to me. Yes, one came 'after' the other. But htat does not mean they're the same thing. To pretend that I can now 'forget' that part is lunacy. It creates a pain all its own and we must deal with that way.

 

My ex also acts as if I should 'just get over it'. I will, but not quickly. She has done all those things your ex has done - rewritten the marriage back to (before) the beginning, come up with excuse after distortion after lie to justify the unjustifiable. It is truly amazing the lengths people will go to to be right.

 

Raoul

[lostandhurt]

Raoul,

Yes they want us to "get over it" so they can expunge this episode from their lives like it didn't happen. They fear the truth and we are reminder of that truth. As John says, " the W.A.S. does not deal in reality only the truth that fits their needs". or something like that

sorry John.

You will never forget what has happened and trying to would be futile. Not allowing it to control your life is very possible. I am well on my way but it hardly has left my mind for more than a day or two.

 

I ask myself often when those thoughts rise to the surface "what good will come from thinking about this? the answer is always NOTHING. Then I move on to what is most important to me......Mine and MY Son's LIFE!

 

take care

 

Lost

[Hosedbywife]

Here is the latest with my Ex:

My 42 days of summer possession began last night. The ex brings the kids over on time to drop them off. She comes in and hangs around my apartment for about an hour with the kids & I. Everything was fine until it was time for her to go. The kids go downstairs with her and I had to follow along. Another 20 minutes goes by and then she breaks down and starts to cry. Of course the kids start crying as well and do not want her to leave. Then my 8 year old starts saying the exact same line that my Ex has been saying very recently. "I do not want to be gone more then 1 week".

 

Leading up to my summer possession, the ex made it perfectly clear that I am a SOB because I was going to take the kids away from her for so many consecutive days. She has told my 8 & 4 year old the same thing. I took my kids inside as the cried their eyes out. She then calls me within 2 minutes after she leaves and says she is no longer interested in working with me to give me more time with the kids because of what I am doing to her by keeping her away for them for so long. I promptly reminded her that it was she who made the decision to leave the marriage, she was the person who quit therapy after only for 3 weeks right after her affair was known, she had primary custody and that both kids slept under her roof for 24 nights per month, every month except during summer. I reminded her that I only have them spend the night at my place from 4 to 6 nights per month, I told her that she chose this life, is this not the life you envisioned?

 

Of course she said that this was all my fault and how dare I get my kids during the summer months for so many straight nights while she has to work and here is the best line of them all! " I would have never done this to you, taking them for so many nights in a row" and then I told her, well maybe you are right, you took them from me for a lot more then 42 straight days.

 

Bottom line, as all of us here know, these types of conversations are brain damaging, a waste of time- they will never admit that they screwed up in any aspect. We get blamed for almost everything that goes wrong with her life. It is so pathetic!! and they all spew the same exact lines! Are they reading from the same playbook?

[John Bendix]

Raoul,

Yes they want us to "get over it" so they can expunge this episode from their lives like it didn't happen. They fear the truth and we are reminder of that truth. As John says, " the W.A.S. does not deal in reality only the truth that fits their needs". or something like that

sorry John.

You will never forget what has happened and trying to would be futile. Not allowing it to control your life is very possible. I am well on my way but it hardly has left my mind for more than a day or two.

 

I ask myself often when those thoughts rise to the surface "what good will come from thinking about this? the answer is always NOTHING. Then I move on to what is most important to me......Mine and MY Son's LIFE!

 

take care

 

Lost

 

 

No problem Lost! Well said! The truth is whatever they need it to be.

[John Bendix]

I have held back from posting this bc it just gets too repetative and ridiculous but here it goes.

 

The nest day after the hostility, my X calls me. Mind you before this "birthday" episode, NC for months. Starts asking if am really back in school to get my masters. I told her yes but not her concern. "How can you go to school and not pay for the two older son's college? You have not paid anything for them". I paid 12,500.00 for one son's tuition and the other I paid acouple of thousand for jr college. I have the checks to prove it. She screamed that that cannot be true.

 

She continues to yell at me and tell me that I am a bad parent. That my son's are f***** liars (never heard her curse for 25 years until she lost it and now drops f-bombs whenever I hear from her) and do not respect her. She said that they have to respect her, spend time with her, and love her bc she is their mother. That she is entitled to that.

 

I kept my calm and told her that I do not need to hear that about my kids or be told what a bad parent I am since I am raising them alone while she went off to be "happy". To which she responded that they are following my instructions to shun her.?? She believes this (I think) to be true so she does not have to face the fact that they do not like the radical change in her, per Lost's comment. I could not take much more and said goodbye.

 

I got three text messages in a row from her. One said "UR are crazy, I'm fine, and that is why I left you". The others did not make much sense but equally as hostile.

 

Go figure-

[jasper01]

Sounds like she thinks you're nuts. And you think she's nuts. Who's 'right'?

[Raoul]

She continues to yell at me and tell me that I am a bad parent. That my son's are f***** liars (never heard her curse for 25 years until she lost it and now drops f-bombs whenever I hear from her) and do not respect her. She said that they have to respect her, spend time with her, and love her bc she is their mother. That she is entitled to that.

 

"UR are crazy, I'm fine, and that is why I left you".

 

Her own mother-in-law says that her daughter (my WAS) now has a 'mouth like a truck driver'. My wife jokes about it with her Mom.

 

Our children understand that their mother is having trouble with basic things like reality and truth. But their mother demands their respect, presence and love, because 'she's entitled to that' as their mother. I was always taught and behaved as if respect had to be earned.

 

John and Lost, we could be looking in each others' mirrors.

 

How do they do these things and see themselves as 'fine'?

 

Raoul

[John Bendix]

Sounds like she thinks you're nuts. And you think she's nuts. Who's 'right'?

 

First, you are using the word nuts. I do not think I have every used that word and that would not be showing too much empathy for anyone. The word is degrading to anyone that suffers from a mental or emotional disorder.

 

Then, using that same word, you are telling me what I think about my X.

 

To top it off, in a passive way, you attempt to turn a question into a comment as if I am sitting in a therapist's office.

 

I am certainly not here to debate or defend the emotional stability of my X or myself. Only to display and understand behavioral patterns in order to enlighten those who may find themselves in similiar circumstances.

[John Bendix]

Her own mother-in-law says that her daughter (my WAS) now has a 'mouth like a truck driver'. My wife jokes about it with her Mom.

 

Our children understand that their mother is having trouble with basic things like reality and truth. But their mother demands their respect, presence and love, because 'she's entitled to that' as their mother. I was always taught and behaved as if respect had to be earned.

 

John and Lost, we could be looking in each others' mirrors.

 

How do they do these things and see themselves as 'fine'?

 

Raoul

 

Part of the dysfunctional ego that they (as well as all of us to differing degrees) have created uses denial as its main tool. It does so in self protection. If the ego feels that it may be diminshed because of the actions it has taken, it will learn to "ignore" or not deal with them. Taking it a step on the dysfunctional coping mechanism trail, it will deny to others (whose opinions it bases its self worth on) that real events never actually took place no matter what the evidence to contrary says. The next step crosses further over the borderline (neurotic to pyschotic) to denying it ever happened, to themselves.

 

My X had tried so hard to convince her friends and family that I threw her out of the house (sister actually told this to my youngest), that a year later she told me that I threw her out when I did everything in my power to try to get her to stay and raise our family. She even tried to convince me! She could not let anyone she knew believe that she walked out on her family to be "happy".

[jasper01]

First, you are using the word nuts. I do not think I have every used that word and that would not be showing too much empathy for anyone. The word is degrading to anyone that suffers from a mental or emotional disorder.

 

Then, using that same word, you are telling me what I think about my X.

 

To top it off, in a passive way, you attempt to turn a question into a comment as if I am sitting in a therapist's office.

 

I am certainly not here to debate or defend the emotional stability of my X or myself. Only to display and understand behavioral patterns in order to enlighten those who may find themselves in similiar circumstances.

 

Ah - so in your vocabulary the word nuts is degrading. Got it. And I'm hearing the way you heard what I said implied I believed I knew what you are thinking. And that my comment may have sounded condescending from your perspective. I can see how it would now.

 

In my vocabulary, the word nuts, is a somewhat affectionate way of saying 'your sense makes no sense to me'.

 

So perhaps I've misunderstood you. From my sense - what you are saying is that according to your sense your ex makes no sense due to her emotional instability. Did I get it?

[John Bendix]

Ah - so in your vocabulary the word nuts is degrading. Got it. And I'm hearing the way you heard what I said implied I believed I knew what you are thinking. And that my comment may have sounded condescending from your perspective. I can see how it would now.

 

In my vocabulary, the word nuts, is a somewhat affectionate way of saying 'your sense makes no sense to me'.

 

So perhaps I've misunderstood you. From my sense - what you are saying is that according to your sense your ex makes no sense due to her emotional instability. Did I get it?

 

I was not saying any of that. Extrapolate what you will.

 

You did not imply anything, you said, "And you think she's nuts." Pretty clear in any vocabulary you chose to use. For simplicity, I am using English for it is my mother tongue.

 

'Condescending'? Who's to say?

[jasper01]

I was not saying any of that. Extrapolate what you will.

 

You did not imply anything, you said, "And you think she's nuts." Pretty clear in any vocabulary you chose to use. For simplicity, I am using English for it is my mother tongue.

 

'Condescending'? Who's to say?

 

That was my interpretation of what you were saying. Seems I didn't get it. But I'd be interested in hearing what you believe is going on in your ex-partner if 'nuts' doesn't capture the idea.

 

Good question on condescending. My view is that it's relative, and I'd be curious to hear how it sounded from your point of view.

 

btw- the reason I chimed in at this point is that I don't think I ever saw you mention your partner saying she thought you were nuts and that's why she left. I think that's valuable information, and that a door is being opened..very slightly.

[lostandhurt]

John,

Her reality is a moving target isn't it? Post as often as you like. Many that come accross this thread don't always take the time to read back very far.

As you know there are unfortunately new members to our club showing up all the time.

I often look to yours as a window into what might happen with mine......only to a lessor extent.

 

Happy Fathers Day buddy

 

Lost

[lostandhurt]

Raoul,

Respect is earned as you say. Even children can see the difference and often will comment on strange actions. It isn't always easy to let some things go but I am committed to high road no matter what. I am raising a boy to be a man that can be proud of his father.

The W.A.S. simply cannot be honest with themselves. To be honest would be to admit they have hurt the ones they love the most with selfish actions. This they will not do as blaming the spouse is easier.

 

Happy Fathers Day!

Lost

[lostandhurt]

Hosed,

My son used to cry every time I would take him back to his mothers. It is better now but he still locks the door when she tries to open the truck door when we get there.

Being right doesn't make any of this easier. I think you handled it very well. You stayed to topic at hand and didn't stray into things that will not help. Don't let her drag you into unhealthy interactions.

Don't tell your children, show them. Your actions and stable behavior will become soothing to them. I have a very good routine with my son much like before the divorce and he thrives on having that type of old life situation. I am not Disneyland Dad for sure.

I applaud your self control. Keep going with your life with your children at your side.

 

Happy Fathers Day.

 

Lost

[John Bendix]

That was my interpretation of what you were saying. Seems I didn't get it. But I'd be interested in hearing what you believe is going on in your ex-partner if 'nuts' doesn't capture the idea.

 

Good question on condescending. My view is that it's relative, and I'd be curious to hear how it sounded from your point of view.

 

btw- the reason I chimed in at this point is that I don't think I ever saw you mention your partner saying she thought you were nuts and that's why she left. I think that's valuable information, and that a door is being opened..very slightly.

 

Jaspar,

 

She has uttered similiar comments when I honestly and with compassion, suggested to her that she think about getting some counceling. I know that you might not think that WAS spouses have real emotional problems but they are there and my X has depressive issues. Not my opinion but observations by many professionals in the field as described on many occasions here, on the web, and in publication.

 

You are right that she never finished with the part; "That's why I left".

 

I have told you that your support of the Imago relationship theories has a lot of merit to it. Understanding and compassion are two qualities that most of us do not have enough of.

 

Condescending was a word you used, I repeated it back, and explained why.

 

Ok, I'll bite. Why would the "nuts" or crazy comment towards me by my X open any door even if just a little after all of this time? I may be too ignorant to see it but how does that mean anything?

[John Bendix]

John,

Her reality is a moving target isn't it? Post as often as you like. Many that come accross this thread don't always take the time to read back very far.

As you know there are unfortunately new members to our club showing up all the time.

I often look to yours as a window into what might happen with mine......only to a lessor extent.

 

Happy Fathers Day buddy

 

Lost

 

Same to you Lost.

 

I sincerely hope that this last part is true. I do not wish what I went through on anyone else. I have always agreed that mine could be a "worst (maybe not worst) case scenario". Maybe extreme case scenario would be a better way of catergorizing it.

[jasper01]

She has uttered similiar comments when I honestly and with compassion, suggested to her that she think about getting some counceling. I know that you might not think that WAS spouses have real emotional problems but they are there and my X has depressive issues. Not my opinion but observations by many professionals in the field as described on many occasions here, on the web, and in publication.

 

 

Yup. I did that too. My partner was upset and having a difficult time. I thought she had serious problems and so did my counselor who suggested that we find somebody to work with. But the last thing she wanted to hear from me was that I thought counseling might help. Boy was I an idiot. She wanted to be heard and seen, based on the way she experiences the world. Not have me figure out the best course of action based on the way I think about things. I now disagree with my ex-counselor. Such is life.

 

Ok, I'll bite. Why would the "nuts" or crazy comment towards me by my X open any door even if just a little after all of this time? I may be too ignorant to see it but how does that mean anything?

 

 

The door I see opening is that I think she's giving you the opportunity to begin seeing her sense, whether she knows it or not. I believe she's been keeping her sense from you up till now because she didn't feel safe to tell the truth. And I have some thoughts about what one might do with that to open the door further. Interested?

[John Bendix]

I am always interested in trying new things or looking at the world from a different perspective.

 

I am here to learn. Teach away-

[lostandhurt]

Well,

Tomorrow is the first mediation meeting to negotiate the settlement. I am hoping I can remember all I have learned and I am able to stay calm and collected. I will give myself a pep talk and go over the things I have learned here and about myself.

 

You know I wanted this to be over right away, but taking a year to get to this point may not have been such a bad thing. I have a much better outlook on my life than I did over a year ago when this all started.

 

Wish me luck

Lost

[benga]

Interested?

 

 

Yes Jasper01... We are here, similar situations, similar outcomes, similar experiences, similar spouces, similar reactions...

 

I am here to learn and share... teach away!!

 

Rest in the club.... Some interesting developments with the X going on in my life.. Keeping me a little emotionally drained at the moment... But will share outcomes very soon...

[Raoul]

Lost,

 

Good luck. Two things, both sort of 'new age-y' that work for me when negotiating:

1) Breathe: Focus on each breath, maybe breathe a little deeper than you would normally. Make yourself take a breath or two befor answering a question or starting a new topic.

2) Ask yourself these three questions:

- could I let this go?

- would I let this go?

- when?

You don't need to answer these; just ask them, silently of and to you yourself.

 

And don't negotiate against yourself. For each position taken or proposed, make sure its a dialog with back an forth. If not, be slient after you introduce or make a point.

 

Good luck my friend,

Raoul

[jasper01]

Just sharing my thoughts. My thought of the 'what to do with that' goes something like

 

'I was thinking about our conversation. And wow - I really didn't get that before. But I'm hearing you left because you think I'm nuts.' - mirroring, and labeling her point of view as hers.

 

'Of course you felt that way.' - validating

 

'If at some point you'd like to share more about that I'd be really interested in hearing.' - inviting dialogue, not pushing, indicating that you can wait for an answer

 

All said with confidence and a strong belief that she is congruent with herself, her history, her sense - prevalidating.

 

Get comfortable with the idea of multiple truths. Monitor yourself if you see yourself stating your beliefs or interpretations as fact. Keep your interpretations about her to yourself. Learn to remove the habit of implying single truths, and know how to disarm it when your partner does it. 'Oh, so your belief is that I was extrapolating what you were saying..go on.' You reframe the statement as a belief. 'Oh, so when I said "And you think she's nuts", you thought I was stating a fact. I actually had a different idea. I was offering that as an interpretation of what you were saying, but seems I didn't get it'. And so on.

 

I believe it may be that in her reality she thinks you're never going to change. I think that's the cement that holds her 'wall' up. And I think that can be a long term process, changing that perception. But for me it began with letting her know that I had been thinking about my part in this and I was working on myself, and that I had a new counselor. And as I learned to talk and relate differently, she began to get interested in learning about it herself. Wall began to evaporate.

[John Bendix]

OK. Jaspar.

 

I am looking at what you say here with objectivity.

 

Whatever is said and done in the way you say it, do we have to assume that there is going to be some errors, misunderstandings, and reactivity on her part and even mine no matter how vigilant I am in staying the course? How to deal with them?

 

Not to mention disbelief due to lack of trust no matter how I would present myself in a non-judgmental, non-reactional, empathatic, accepting way.

 

Dealing with problem: Never has wanted to sit and talk. Phone calls, If accepted by me, have lead to hostility on her part without me ever getting upset. But I see where you would be going with this. Let her vent and just stay the course of "I understand how you much feel".

 

Teach me more.