Example of how most men value looks over intelligence

[Batya33]

I didn't most of the replies but I'll respond to the OP. Yeah, this is nothing new. And women do it too. I know this because I'm a fairly intelligent guy (I'm a logical person; I see clear reasonable solutions to problems easily and I can hold an interesting intelligent conversation.) Does this matter? No, cause I'm 5'5" so most girls won't bother getting to know me. I'm not complaining, just giving an example of how women value looks over intelligence. I understand your frustration, but just remember it works both ways.

 

My boyfriend is 5"5 (maybe even a half inch shorter than that). My ex boyfriend is 5"3. My long term boyfriend in my 20s was and still is 5"7. I happen to be attracted to men who are shorter than average.

[Batya33]

For me, intelligence isn't a factor when looking for a mate. Provided she is literate, can do basic math and can speak coherent english so we can carry on a decent conversation. The ability to hold down a simple job may also be a plus (though it's not required).

 

There are so many other (personality) traits that I look for than someone who is smart/thinks she's smart. A girl who can whiz through a calculus problem does not turn me on (at least, in and of itself). But hey, that's me.

 

That seems to be a fairly narrow view of what "smart" is - it's not about being able to do a calculus equation while on a date. Indeed, that would be foolish unless the person was asked to do that for some reason. Like Jadedstar posted above, without being on the same wavelength intelligence-wise, the relationship can quickly get boring. What really suffers is the fun part - the laughing together - it's very hard to "get" someone if you're have radically different levels of intelligence.

 

But that's just me.

[Leonhart]

That seems to be a fairly narrow view of what "smart" is - it's not about being able to do a calculus equation while on a date. Indeed, that would be foolish unless the person was asked to do that for some reason. Like Jadedstar posted above, without being on the same wavelength intelligence-wise, the relationship can quickly get boring. What really suffers is the fun part - the laughing together - it's very hard to "get" someone if you're have radically different levels of intelligence.

 

But that's just me.

 

Well, I don't see me handing out intelligence tests to all my first dates and crossing them off the list if they don't score at least a 130. That, to me, seems asinine. And heck, if I'm going to add "must be on equal level intellectually with me" as another prerequisite, then I'd might as well give up now (because my expectations are ALREADY rather high to begin with!) Why shoot myself in the foot moreso?

 

I don't place a great deal of importance on how much alphabet soup (as someone else beautifully articulated before) she has behind her name. I have met plenty of intelligent, yet uneducated people, and many stupid and absent-minded, yet highly (I'd say "over-") educated people. Frankly, I see no point in her having such a high level of education, romance-wise. (I don't even know where I'd meet an M.D. or someone with a Ph.D...?) As I said, there are SO many other factors which supercede intelligence for me; kindness, romance, similar values and beliefs, faith in God, compassion, love for children, a sense of humour, optimism, etc.

 

I just don't see the value in getting into big, drawn-out intellectual debates with my mate, nor do I see the value in discussing quantum physics, Freud vs. Jung's theory of dreams and the unconscious mind, neurobiology/psychology, calculus, and so on. Sounds... *yawn*... boring, to me. I get lectured all day at school by professors with swelled heads, I don't need it at home too. And I could never stand being talked "down" to by someone who has gone to school for more years than I. Ughhh.

 

I'd prefer the simple life of being able to share my heart with her, relax and simply enjoy each other's company, not sit there and try and stump each other with riddles and brainteasers. Where is the romance in that?

[Taomagicdragon]

Mind if i put some hot dogs on this topic? it;s getting heated!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Intelligence is a facet of a perosn lik anything else. Everyon has preferences. In fact, preferences are good to have, and as long as you are happy with them, there;s no such thing as a wrong preference really. To each their own!

[Batya33]

Leonhart, you're confusing "intellectual" with "intelligence." You're presuming that someone intelligent is going to focus on intellectual topics or "debate" - not sure where that link comes from. You're also confusing measuring intelligence with IQ- I was referring to someone who I sense is on my level of intelligence - nothing to do with test-related measures of intelligence. if someone is not on my level intellectually then we likely wouldn't have compatible senses of humor (and we both agree that a sense of humor is important).

 

As for valuing higher education, I see that we have different values about that. That's cool. Where I live and among the people I know, almost all have higher degrees. I would have a very hard time meeting a man who did not have at least a college degree, even if I tried.

 

As is clear on this thread, we all have different criteria for a mate - I am not putting down your dismissal of intelligence or higher education as criteria, but for whatever reason you are criticizing those who do have such criteria.

[annie24]

i think all of those are very valid points. I think a lot of women (myself too at times in the past!) look at our resumes and say, "I have graduated from xxxx with a degree in xxxxx, I am financially secure, of course John/Dave/Scott should like me!" And that's just not right at all. How many women say, "Oh, he has a degree from yale and a 3 bedroom house. i should love him." it's just ridiculous. obviously, most men and women are looking for a connection, not for their partner to be able to take a calculus test. of course, being educated can be a positive to many (as seen in this thread), but typically people don't go for an educated person with whom they have no connection or chemistry. if they do, it's just sad.

 

Christian Carter (you can google him) writes a lot of interesting articles about dating for women, and he's had a few articles on highly accomplished women who have a hard time finding love. they are good reads, if a little tedious at times.

[Leonhart]

You're confusing "intellectual" with "intelligence." You're presuming that someone intelligent is going to focus on intellectual topics - not sure where that link comes from. You're also confusing measuring intelligence with IQ- I was referring to someone who I sense is on my level of intelligence - nothing to do with test-related measures of intelligence. As for valuing higher education, I see that we have different values about that. That's cool. Where I live and among the people I know, almost all have higher degrees. I would have a very hard time meeting a man who did not have at least a college degree, even if I tried.

 

As is clear on this thread, we all have different criteria for a mate - I am not putting down your dismissal of intelligence or higher education as criteria, but for whatever reason you are criticizing those who do have such criteria.

 

Yeah, intellectual / intelligence... definitely don't know where I got that from. Okay, okay... I'm being sarcastic. As hell. I don't see how you CAN'T make the leap, to be honest. But whatever.

 

I'm all for higher education. For me. For a woman, it is not a factor, as I have already said many times. Since I am going to school, I am obviously looking there, since I want out of this singlehood deathtrap (lol), so if she has a four year degree... that's fine. Whatever. If she really wants to go on, that's cool too... as long as she does not put her career ahead of the family (I'm assuming we're married now, BTW. lol) If she is all right with that and still wants to marry and have a family, then it's on. I'm not anti-intelligence. I am a very smart man. But as I said, it's not a big deal to me. The factors I mentioned, however, ARE important to me. (And many others, too.)

 

I was stating my feelings on why I would not care one way or the other. I don't care who chases after what. It's none of my business. Where did I ever say "you should not do this" or "it's bad"? I'm pretty sure nowhere.

 

Anyway, studies I've read demonstrate the point that was originally made... and that is, that by and large, women tend to value intelligence more than men do. Not everyone will, but many do, have and will.

[Taomagicdragon]

Intelligence is a measured content of what you know.

 

Intellectuallity is a personality type based around the belief of always learning and keeping abreast of various topics or a specialty.

 

Basically you can have intelligence and be dumb as a brick despite what a diploma says.

 

An intellectual uses his mind to show his intellignece and doesn't bother talkign about a silly diploma.

[Leonhart]

Intelligence is a measured content of what you know.

 

Intellectuallity is a personality type based around the belief of always learning and keeping abreast of various topics or a specialty.

 

And you meet many people who are "stupid" yet very "intellectual?" I've yet to meet one like that.

[Batya33]

Oh, I meant that the way you are depicting intelligence as presumptively boring, stuffy and having only to do with intellectual topics and debate and school-related stuff. That is not how I define it, how jadedstar defined it or how most people define it in terms of seeking a mate who is intelligent.

 

To me intelligence permeates what a person does, how he or she reacts to the world, to other people, the level of curiosity about learning, life, the arts, other people, etc. - it makes a person sparkle and makes a person interesting and funny/witty in what they share, how they share it and how they listen to what other people have to say.

 

I can't share laughter or banter with someone who I don't find intelligent. I would be embarrassed to introduce someone I was seriously dating to my family or friends who seemed dull or not too bright and I would be bored, which is a turn off romantically too.

 

and, yes, like many other topics, intellectual topics have their place too in conversation. But that has almost nothing to do with why I seek intelligence and values about higher education in a mate. People who drone on and on about intellectual topics bore me. I have met people who know a lot about one topic and can speak intelligently on that topic but otherwise are not intelligent.

 

Some people do not value intelligence in friends or mates. But defining it in the narrow, "stuffy" way you did has nothing to do with seeking intelligence in a mate - and not just for me - I am sure no one on this thread who seeks intelligence as a criteria meant it that way. I know of no one who would (except you).

[Taomagicdragon]

Of course not, an intellectual isn't stupid, they may not have a degree, but the have a focus on staying on top certain subjects as well as a love of learning in general.

 

You can be dumb but have knowledge and a degree, but beign an intellectual is a lifestyle, not soemthing a diploma says for you.

[Leonhart]

But, that's not really just "intelligence" then, is it? You can be funny and not smart. I know people like that. You can be brilliant and as exciting as shredded wheat. Met people like that too.

 

I equate intellectualism with intelligence, absolutely. How can you not? lol That said, someone who is boring, stuffy and arid is not exactly my cup of tea. I'd take the fun girl with 20 less IQ points and have a good time, than to sit and debate (which, BTW, I hate arguing, so I may stop posting in this topic momentarily) over "deep" philosophical and existential ideologies.

 

You can't laugh with someone who isn't as smart as you...? Why? I can. Am I somehow "stupider" than you? I don't think I am. Maybe I am. Regardless, I have no trouble with it.

 

So, because I don't add to the actual meaning of the word "intelligence" that I'm somehow wrong? Uh-huh. I think I'm done here.

 

When I say a word, it means what it says. No more, no less. That was why I added in "sense of humour" into my list. I was not aware that all smart people were funny.

[Taomagicdragon]

Leonheart, judging on how you misread my remark I feel that you have a different view of an intellectual and intelligence. An intellectual does need intelligence, but that intelligence does not need to be backed by a degree or a diploma or by awards. That's how I view it. An intellectual is a well informed person with developed knowldge and opinions on things, those are what intelligence is.

 

If a person is "stupid" (to use your word) then I;m unsure on how to take it. People in general have intelligence usually. If the girl blanks out everytime I speak, then I won;t think she;s "stupid" I';; assume she;s not a good conversationalist or that her and i have intelligence in different fields and we jsut don't conenct.

 

In my way of thinking, rarely is someone flat out "stupid" and, for me a diploma doesn't really guarantee much of anything if we don;t mesh up well in conversation.

[Batya33]

To me someone who I don't find intelligent might be objectively "funny" but we wouldn't have compatible senses of humor, which is what is key to me in a relationship - not whether others find him funny or able to banter, but whether I do. I have never met a person who I did not consider on my wavelength of intelligence who I also found funny or fun to talk to for more than a short period of time. I think being witty and being able to banter (part of what I look for in a compatible sense of humor) is directly related to intelligence.

[CaptainPlanet]

Annie24 please don't get me wrong here I agree with most of your post but you make a comment towards the end that I find interesing and would like to comment on in return.

 

'Respect my views' of 'my values' kind of talk is in my view (get it), is highly subjective and open to manipulation in my mind it is thereforeeee a meaningless term someone uses when they are wrong.

 

For example- in a hypothetical situation, I respect the fact that in your view you think I do not value education because I have no college degree, and in return you must respect my view that I hate you for thinking that way and believe that you are a snob. Any belief can be a view and they do not all deserve respect. Making something your 'view' or part of your 'values' does not make it anymore right or wrong.

 

If you are saying people without degrees don't value eduaction and you would not date them thereforeeee. There are two parts to that statement.

 

1) you identify with the generalization, non - college educated people don't value education as highly as college educated people. Maybe true, maybe not.

 

2) you act on that belief, taking to action you will not date someone without a degree. At this point you become a snob.

 

its once you take that 'view' and bring it into the material realm of activity and your view starts impacting on your life and other peoples lives that you become a biggot or a snob.

 

Really what we are talking about here is not that one values education, it is the 'view' that those without formal degrees to do not value education, where education being - dedication to learning. By all means if a man will not learn or is disinterested in learning you are not compatibile. That I will not dispute as it is your personal preference. But thats not what this has been about, it has been about the inclination of some posters to assume lack of a formal education implies a lack of overall education and a lack of educational values.

 

So I can see why some posters have come down so hard here, because what we are seeing is beyond a case of two people with different views.

[CaptainPlanet]

One more thing I would like to point out.

 

There are also an increasing number of men not entering college or taking up white collar jobs.

 

thereforeeee, set you standards high on the possibly non existant man of the future, just don't be too surprised if your expectations are never met.

[summerpeach]

Very well said

[Batya33]

I don't view someone who didn't go to college as presumptively not valuing college or presumptively not intelligent- but when it comes to choosing someone to marry (as opposed to choosing friends or who I want to associate with/affiliate with) I strongly prefer that he have valued higher education enough that he at least finished college (which is not hard to do where I live, as long as you have sufficient intelligence and drive to do so). I don't impact someone's life in the way Captainplanet suggested by having that value about marriage - people have preferences and criteria all the time when it comes to who they choose to marry.

 

I never said I definitely wouldn't date someone without a college degree - and I did in my early 20s - two men who were in the process of finishing college and I had no issue with the lack of a degree. I always have been open to listening to "why" the person chose not to go to college if I otherwise found him intelligent but the two main reasons (1) to make more money and/or (2) because to them college wasn't important told me that we would not be compatible for the purposes of serious dating (as opposed to friendship). The only times I've been faced with that situation is by men contacting me through an on line site.

 

Of course values are subjective - so is the process of choosing a mate, unless the marriage is arranged and even then, someone is making subjective and perhaps value-based choices of who to bring together in marriage.

 

Where I am from the statistics are not as you said (and I am not dating men in their 20s), and I would date someone who chose a blue collar job if he at least had a college degree. As I wrote above it would be very difficult for me to find a man who hadn't at least gone to college, from my area, in my age group, and of my religion. Most of the people I know have graduate degrees. If I found that a large number of men did not have college degrees, that would be a factor in my decisionmaking process.

[summerpeach]

Batya, this sounds to me, you were raised to think this way.

You have valid points on many occasion, but nothing true to form or true to life.

Very few people live in the frame of mind you express here.

In my opinion, you are just narrowing down your chances of finding beautiful people in your life.

[annie24]

I don't think anyone said that people without higher education do not value it. I wouldn't agree with that statement. That is like saying you must be a ballerina to value ballet, that you cannot admire it if you don't take part in it. Or that you cannot value music if you do not study music yourself. I know plenty of people that didn't get a higher education, and they value it. But we all have different life paths, theirs just didn't take them to college and grad school.

 

Now, if we want to make a generalization, if you are an artist and want to date a person who values the arts, you may have an easier time finding such a person at a gallery opening vs. at a republican convention or whatnot. But that doesn't mean that your ideal match is an artist, or that there aren't people at the republican convention that wouldn't be a good match for you.

 

My aunt and uncle are match-makers in their spare time, LOL. They tell me that the couples that work out are the ones that have the most in common. Similar educational background, similar social status, similar intelligence, similar on the "looks scale" and similar financial status. When a couple is mismatched in some way, they find it doesn't work oiut as well. Those are just their experiences. I do remember reading an interview with that Neil Warren Clark guy from eHarmony and he was saying something like his research shows that couples tend to break up if their IQ scores aren't within 10 points of each other. Now, i don't know of any couple that took an IQ test together, nor even how accurate such tests are, but it seems like "commonality" is the theme here.

[ryan250]

You are compromising your reality if you base the success of a relationship on the IQ test.

 

Unless, of course, the couples IQ's range from 50 to 140.

[JadedStar]

My two cents is you can be intelligent but not necessarily an intellectual, but you can't be an intellectual without being intelligent.

 

I have never meant anyone in my life who was an intellectual who didn't have a decent amount of intelligence.

 

I have met people who TRIED TO BE intellectual who was not intelligent at all, and it is a sad thing to see. ANd annoying. He tried to be someone he wasn't and made himself look foolish.

 

People should be who they are.

[JadedStar]

'Respect my views' of 'my values' kind of talk is in my view (get it), is highly subjective and open to manipulation in my mind it is thereforeeee a meaningless term someone uses when they are wrong.

 

I did not think Annie was saying that respecting someone's views meant that if someone thinks all people without a degree don't value college that this mindset should be respected. What her statement meant to me was...if a person does not want to marry someone wtihout a degree, just respect it and leave it at that. When it comes to picking a spouse, as i said before, people are not created equal. We are free to be as prejudice as we want becasue we are the ones who will have to sleep wtih and be close to that person.

 

I have a few rules about guys that i just woudln't date and I would be pretty ticked off if someone said I was being shallow or judgemental. I will absolutely be as stringent or as lenient as I please when it comes to choosing who I will get intimate with. it is no one's business but my own. ANd that should be the same for everyone else. It is their personal choice who they will date. If they only date within a certain race, educational background, financial background, specific hair color, etc it is no one's business but their own. Some men only like thin women, some only like heavy women, and so on and so on...it is their choice who they want to date. We can't force attraction or compatibility on people.

 

So in a nutshell this is what I thought Annie meant by that statement and you misconstrued it. Basically saying why are people being so harsh on what others choose and require in a mate? They are the ones who have to be intimate with that person and share their private time with...they should be able to choose. If some educated women like dating men who are not educated or who are her intellectual inferior then she shoudl go for it, but she should not judge women who are open enough to saY I want my intellectual equal and I would prefer someone with a similar educational background. It is crazy to argue with someone about their choices in this area. They have the option to choose.

 

My aunt and uncle are match-makers in their spare time, LOL. They tell me that the couples that work out are the ones that have the most in common. Similar educational background, similar social status, similar intelligence, similar on the "looks scale" and similar financial status. When a couple is mismatched in some way, they find it doesn't work oiut as well.

 

I emphatically agree. Opposites workout if there are some core likenesses. I rarely see couples work out where one is drastically different in the area of intelligence, looks and/or social status. Out of those three, i have seen couples mismatched in the area of attractiveness work out more than a mismatch in intelligence or social status. Having similarities in all three of those areas tends to make a better recipe for success.

 

It happesns, sure, but I would challenge anyone who says it is the norm. Its not. Most successful couples have "physical and mental likeness" in many ways.

[Taomagicdragon]

I think people are merging the ideas of prejudice with what they find attractive and that's why some people are taking it as they are.

 

They are equating "I like a man with a college degree" with "i am superior to all those without a degree in everything" The two are not the same.

Aceepting and respecting a person is VASTLY diferrent from wanting the person to be intimate with you. How you treat others and how you want your ideal partner to be are also vastly different. The people with higher standards aren't sayign those who don;t meet their dating standards are worthless or lower in the world, or anyting else. They are sayign if they want to build a life with someone, that they need these "tools" and "skills" to build it with.

[JadedStar]

They are equating "I like a man with a college degree" with "i am superior to all those without a degree in everything" The two are not the same.

 

YEP! Exactly correct!

 

That is also what I feel has been going on in this thread. People are being criticized for their tastes and preferences in a mate and people are assuming that these same people also are prejudiced against those types of people they would not date. That is not true. I prefer dating within my race, but i am nothing even CLOSE to prejudice against anyone for their ethnic background. So i would assume a person who only would marry someone with an equal background in education is probably the same way..not that they condemn others without a degree they just woudln't marry them. And that is their personal right to choose. Doesn't mean they judge other people they are not dating.