At what age does being a PUA get creepy?

[jettison]

Hahahaha! Show me a 6 year old that would actually be offering financial advice! LOL! And even still I bet you still wouldn't have to use Ad Hominem, just break apart their argument.

 

 

 

That is a serious insult to my accountant.

[Dating Coach]

Galaxy, at the link I provided for teh show, what about Mystery or those guys was wrong? Based upon that vid, all they did was show value and be flirty. Nothing was crossing any lines. That's the kind of stuff I respect. They're showing strong social skills (although I am not too fond of the blonde guy) and it's showing as the girls around them are having a blast.

[JadedStar]

Women don't need to be "protected from unwanted sexual advances." I am perfectly capable, as are all my friends, of letting a guy know when I am not interested. Plus, where are you getting the idea that the advances of these guys who consider themselves pick-up artists are unwanted? Lots of single women go out to bars and clubs to meet guys!

 

I don't think it's helpful in any way to charcaterize guys who are being honest about what they want- to flirt, make conversation, get a number, get a date- as aggressive jerks, and the women they are approaching as so unintelligent and unaware that they must be "protected."

 

It is not a matter of protection. In my mind the argument here was that it is not a desirable state, being a pick up artist, thereforeeee this type of game not being preferred.

 

I don't need "protection" from this sort of thing either. I am very assertive and can handle my own. It is the principle of not wanting to deal with men who are using lines on me they rehearsed out of a book.

 

Truth is, SOME men who are flirting and trying to get a number ARE overly aggressive jerks. Would be a huge misnomer to say they don't exist. If you think that you live in a bubble. LOL But it is also true that not ALL of them are jerks and some are just trying to find a decent date. Like i said before these PUA guys are not all created equal. Some really are jerks. Saying that none are is just as narrow minded as saying all of them are.

 

To the practicing PUA's who are really only doing this trying to find some decent dates, I can tell you as a female who has been privvy to all sorts of pick up tactics that using rehearsed lines are almost always spotted and frowned upon by women. It is not just cliche'd to say BE YOURSELF. If being yourself is that repulsive then you have problems that Mystery can't resolve.

 

It can be a very uncomfortable experience being the object of a so called pick up artist. You can spot that they are practicing techniques they learned and if anything can take the zest and spontanaiety out of mingling and dating that is surely one of them. I am not slamming them all to say they are all just jerks but I will say that not a lot of good comes out of these rehearsed "scams". If a man or woman is not being themselves and just rehearsing lines and techniques they read from a book then it WILL Come off as phoney.

[jettison]

Just the term pick up artist in itself seems to describe a man whose goal in life is to pick up women and there is no emphasis on quality, or dating longevity, nothing.

 

If I were a woman who believed in one night stands it would be grand, and the women here who don't have a problem with the term may be of that mindset.

 

Men who typically are looking for that one love and not have to keep looking over and over do not typically define themselves as a pick up artist.

 

If you are a self-described "pick-up-artist", then are you not honing a craft over time? And if that's the case, the it sounds like you are adopting a lifestyle, not setting yourself up to find some special woman that you connect with in a deep way.

 

Again, this is FINE. No worries there. I don't even have a problem with one night stands. Hey, I've done it. And if the lady likes the guy who proclaims proudly, "I'm a pick-up-artist" then good for her. It's a symbiotic relationship. Bellisimo.

 

Again, it's the sub-culture that doesn't sit well. If one doesn't understand why taking advice from a cheezeball like "Mystery" is... erah... cheezy, then no amount of debate in the world is going to convince you. It's qualitative at that point. There aren't any words to sway your opinion. Hey, if you like really terrible bands then there's not much I can say about that either. No worries. We just have different tastes. If you were one of those guys that was dancing to the Macarena at work then I likely wasn't talking smack about you. I was just letting you make a fool of yourself, and enjoying it all from the standpoint of pure amusement.

 

The subculture that would proclaim PUA as if it were their personal resume, and the willing recipients who dig it.... cool. Go get freaky with your bad selves. Love it. I don't fault the women one bit either. They're smart enough. There's nothing they are "falling for", and I don't believe that anyone is pulling a fast one.

 

However, for myself and almost my entire friendbase, the idea of the PUA... it's pure douchebaggery. We just come from different places. First of all, even if I was a PUA, I would never think of telling anyone that. That's like telling someone "I'm really smart". Or, "I'm really rich". Most rich, smart, attractive people who actually feel that way about themselves rarely ever tell anyone that. The ego is duely fed already.

 

Upon entering "da club,", you may as well just tell some hot woman "I meet a lot of women. Women find me irrestible. Watch as I put you at ease with yourself by utilizing my subtle charms that I've perfected over months by reading these books that I picked up at Barnes & Noble. I used to hate my life, and I had very little success with women, but now the women flock to me like nobody's business because I employ these little techniques, and they 'work on you' almost everytime. There is this one cat, Mystery... I learned most of what I know from him. He's slept with 1,000s of women, and he's kind of my hero. I'd like to be just like him."

 

But again, if this is what the ladies love (and many do, no doubt) then it's more then cool. You've found something that gets you off, and that's more then a lot of people can say.

[jettison]

The major problem with this thread is that no one agrees what a PUA is - to some he is a person who wants to meet a girl in a pub, have sex with her and dump her afterwards with no regard to her feelings. To others it is someone who has the confidence to approach girls no matter what the setting and start a conversation that may lead to marriage. And others are somewhere in between.

 

You can't have a meaningful debate if you can't even agree what it is you are debating.

 

As for sleazeball - that's going to be even more difficult. Anyone from Nixon to Hefner via the Marquis de Sade.

 

 

I have to say, I really agree with DN on this one. We're arguing over shades of gray half the time in this thread. Could anyone use another beer?

[JadedStar]

Hopefully you realize I agree with you. Not sure since you quoted my post in which to respond. I agree with what you are saying here.

[jettison]

JS,

 

I think I responded to your post because I agree with you, as I do most of the time. And it's interesting to note that I knew Somebloke would see things similar to myself. And beyond that I'd really like to know what a few of the other regulars think about this discussion. I find it pretty fascinating, while some folks seem to be getting a little bit bent out of shape that a debate exists at all.

 

Ok, now, back to reading my new book about picking up women. If I'm currently single, and Tyler and Diggity are "gainfully employed" then I'm going to have to do myself a favor and become an artist. ;-)

[galaxy71]

Galaxy, at the link I provided for teh show, what about Mystery or those guys was wrong? Based upon that vid, all they did was show value and be flirty. Nothing was crossing any lines. That's the kind of stuff I respect. They're showing strong social skills (although I am not too fond of the blonde guy) and it's showing as the girls around them are having a blast.

 

I have no problem with that link at all since I have not looked at it. I am just venting my frustration at the "subculture" of the pickup community in general. The core of the pickup community is great. It's about self-improvement and confidence. Yet there are a lot of people who misuse it. All this venom directed toward Mystery is misguided since I consider him a social genius who has a lot of revolutionary views toward social interaction. It's some of his assistants and students who misuse it that give the community a bad name. On the other extreme, you have those people in the forum who believe that you should do the same thing over and over again even if it does not work at all. I wonder if the people who oppose the pickup community believe in self-improvment minus the PUA community. Do these people think that guys can attract women by asking generic questions?

[CaptainPlanet]

Hey Jettison I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt with regards to your comments about my age.

 

Can I just say when I am in my 30's I truly I hope that I know nothing at all about dating. I hope I am happily married with a suitable partner. I don't expect anyone "special" just someone suitable. So in that regard I don't know if your comments are anymore right than mine. Why are you in your 30's and still dating if you know so much about it ? See anyone can go down that path and it does not help anyone. For all I know you could have been left at the altar twice.

 

I guess the friendship debate could be taken depending on the point of view. Personally I do not want to be in a relationship with a friend. I would much rather find someone suitable and date them with clear intentions (that is for sex) and become friends with them along the way.

 

See I can understand where the women of this thread are coming from. I don't agree with their point of view and I don't think it is at all rational. From what I can tell the pick up artists is not sincere, he is not interested in you for you because you are special and unique, right ? - I can not conform to that idea.

 

As a man I am forced to approach many many women. Often they will reject me simply because the "feeling was not there", (in other words they're just not in the mood), simply for a date ! I do not have time to get to know and like you on a personal level. I certainly do not have the time to make a friend of you, develop emotional attachments and then have them severed when you're just not attracted to me - but you're still a great guy, isn't that how it goes ?

 

Besides for me personally I would not want to date a friend because I like my space I want a relationship to be calm and respectful, especially of my personal boundaries. Friends especially the younger ones don't seem to understand that. Now I know beggars can't be choosers ( I am a beggar ) but thats the way I see dating. I've always had trouble forming relationships with people and women are no different. I want to take things slow and I don't want any feelings at all at the beginning. I am so far off the mark but what it seems a lot of women want is butterflies from day one. I don't want that.. if something goes wrong it is terrible, I do not want to feel terrible. I want to enjoy dating.

 

Thats why PUA is good, it lets me like me interact on a non personal level it lets me build a barrier I can turn it into a game.

 

Thats why dating friends is bad - their too much of an attachment I cannot deal with.

[galaxy71]

This is why a lot of guys use the same lines and tecniques. They notice that these tried and tested lines and techniques work. Many of them are use the same material because they are used to getting rejected when they just try "being themselves". Some guys have no clue about how to have fun and convey personality around women they are attracted to. Now, I believe that using the same line over and over again has the potential of killing the authenticity of the interaction. However, some guys need lines as an example of how to make the interaction more fun and interesting. Some guys need to be trained on how to be a very interesting conversationalist.

 

This is something that frustrates me. Normal converrsation doesn't seem to be enough to attract women. Having a regular conversation about work and church doesn't seem to excite women to the point that she would want to date the guy. This is something that a lot of my friends and myself have experienced. They would try to have a regular conversation with a woman they liked. When they tried to ask for the woman's number, the woman would look uncomfortable before rejecting him. On the other hand, the guy who seems to be captivating the women is the one teasing her and telling stories. The guy is talking away while the woman is quietly listening. I think this is the reason why a lot guys turn to the PUA community.

[jettison]

Galaxy,

 

Truth be told, I know Mystery about as much as I could throw him off of a roof. I have preconceived notions of him based on a few reality shows, his look, and his goofy name. It all comes accross as soooooo deathly serious, an for me, it's laughable. Again, for me. These are merely my sensibilities, and they could be unfounded to a point. Similarly, I don't like the Back Street Boys. You know? Perhaps it's mostly a matter of taste.

 

That said, I do believe that it's entirely possible that this guy really helps some folks and lends some happiness to their lives. I'm cool with that. He's probably a very bright guy, and he certainly has something about him that gives him his cult of personality status.

 

I do appreciate that you have obviously studied the PUA community, and that you've reached the conclusion that many in "the scene" leave a lot to be desired. It seems like you're tackling this from several angles. If someone is deathly shy, and horrible at communicating with women, then they certainly need some help, and if this does it for them then that's fantastic.

 

Seems to be that Diggity, for example, employed these methods, and he's now in a great relationship. Good for him. Hey, I'm single right now... he's has an SO. ... so he must be doing something right.

[JadedStar]

Hopefully "pick up artists" retire their craft and artform when in a relationship.

[CaptainPlanet]

Jaded Star when I was 18-20 I used to go out to bars and use the same line on everygirls I met " did you used to go to X highschool" it used to work ! because the girls would be all, do I know you from somewhere, what school did you go to ? do you know such and such. it always gave me the opportunity to start a conversation. Given the area at that time and the size of the school it was a safe bet some of them did.

 

These days when I go out I don't have lines.. or anything practised it is so much more difficult.

 

One of my favourites used to be: walk up to big group of women, talk to second hottest one, ask what she does, pray she is a teacher or a nurse. Tell her I have enormous respect for her occupation. And I get a conversation at least. Walk up to a woman with no preparation you're leaving yourself high and dry if you cannot think on the spot there and the.

I wouldn't always use those exact words but once you've made an initial positive contact your friends ( wingmen ) can come join the party and suddenly you've made some new (female) friends for the night. One of them might take a liking for more they might not but it never hurts to try.

[JadedStar]

CP to me there is a difference in engaging in small talk and engaging in conversation that was rehearsed from a book or a pro.

 

"What highschool did you go to" is small talk. But practicing how you will tell a woman how beautiful her eyes are, BEFORE you ever even met a specific women, simply because some Pro says that complimenting a women on her eyes will help solidify your chances in getting her into bed is TOTALLY different.

[CaptainPlanet]

It is learning some very basic social skills some of aren't born with. There is a time to compliment and woman, and if you don't know when that is what is wrong with being taught ?

 

If I am out with a girl from work who I know sort of likes me to doesn't mind - might be interested depending on what I do scenario and I don't know how to make the moves. The opportunity will go to waste and I will miss out because I cannot have the right amount of courage at the right time and even If I do I will blunder at it. So if this guy will teach me some generic what to do tactics, so I can atleast put up a pass make for her, she might go ok what the hell lets give this a chance. But if she gives me a singal and I stand there with a blank face wondering what it means.. she won't give me another signal, I've missed my chance b.c she has other options and she will think I'm not that interested and move on.

[jettison]

Captain,

 

I very much appreciate this post. Honest, well thought out, poignant. Love it. Please understand that I meant no disrespect by the age quip. In fact, once I'm 45, I'm quite sure that I will be looking back at my 35 year old self and thinking "Wow, I wish I would have known that back then." I expect that to be true, and will be disappointed somewhat if it's not.

 

As I've said in many of the posts in these threads, I am not against the idea of some guy who is having trouble with women gathering a few pointers from reading a book on the subject. It is merely the fratboy mentality that obviously exists within the subculture that turns my stomach just a bit.

 

IMVHO, people enter relationships for lots of bad reasons. If it's "just to have someone" then that's ok. We all get lonely. But when someone becomes an object to acquire, and once acquired then true happiness will find you, then you are bound to be disappointed.

 

As far as your personal guesses about me, I've been dumped twice in the last year and a half. Once, from a 10-11 year relationship from a woman that I'm still in touch with and will certainly love forever, and once from a woman I was madly, deeply in love with, but let me go because she couldn't trust me with other women. I don't know it that's ironic. I'm no PUA, and even if I was, I'd never claim to be. I'm just some guy who isn't frightened by the hottest woman in the room, and feels comfortable saying anything he likes. 70% of my friends are women, and I happen to relate to women more because they are usually a little more in touch with the whole idea of ENA... speaking their mind, speaking what is their personal truth, and being ok with it. Men are the inferior species in that way I'm afraid.

 

Heck, I'm a designer, and my first ever bookcover was for a book called "The Natural Superiority of Women". I think it's true. I don't say that to empathize or "get chicks", I just say it because it's true for me, in my world.

 

Anyway, the "lighthearted pickup artist" in the vain of old 50s flicks is refreshing and beautiful in its sincerity. There were no long, serious faces, books to read, people with funny names to admire. There was just some guy on a mission to live life and have fun. That's what should be encoraged. Turning love into a science is souless by definition.

 

I want to see more people beside themselves. Show us the raw stuff of youth and don't apologize for it nor yourself! That's what it's all about. That's what women love.

[EvaGina]

Even Mystery says that "the game" is to be used to meet women in order to get into a real relationship... that its not just ot be toyed with

[tiredofvampires]

Too many people make the assumption that pick up artist means something negative....This negative image that pops into peoples heads when the term "Pick Up Artist" is uttered needs to stop.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is, why, DiggityD are you so invested in turning around the meaning of a PUA? Has someone called you that? Are you trying to redeem yourself? Why are you trying to redeem a word/phrase that INHERENTLY implies artifice and calculation?

 

Pick Up Artist = Con Artist.

 

You want to call anyone who is practicing an "art" a noble person? "Art" is about manipulation of materials. You create an effect using things. In this case, people. There are many "arts" that can be considered depraved.

 

If you started a conversation with your now-fiance' that was genuine, why do you insist on calling yourself a PUA in order to defend the use of the terminology? I don't understand. Why not just say you were a nice guy who saw an attractive girl who you thought you'd try to approach? Being good at conversation doesn't equate with PUA -- otherwise, I am a pickup artist and with women as well as men. Because I love to chat people up and make conversation, and if there's a "spark" we once in a while spontaneously get eachother's contact info.

 

I don't actually get attracted to men who have "honed" their ability to charm me. I don't like to be charmed, not one bit. A "charming" person has learned to read people in a way that I find just a bit corrupt of a certain authenticity, vulnerability and sweetness. A man that is approachable to me is a man who isn't "practiced." He just IS. He is himself. He is not "out to get" something, but just happens to be there. And a conversation just happens. That is the kind of man I find very becoming.

 

I see this mass hysteria about "friendzoning". Listen up all you youngin boys: (sorry to sound patronizing, but really, I've earned the right to talk like this, lol) -- a girl who thinks you are a wonderful person to confide in will either be attracted to you or not, regardless what "moves" you put on her. If you are patient and simply receptive to her as a person, you have a much greater chance of NOT being "friendzoned" than being friendzoned. You guys have the opposite notion: that if you don't make a move, you'll lose your chance and be only a friend after that. I have news for you: the longer you let the stew simmer, the richer it gets. The longer the wine cures, the better it tastes. With a quality woman who is going to really be interested in you rather than just your "dating appeal" which is about as short lived as a birthday candle as fires go, the more time you give the relationship that is budding to gain momentum as a friend, the more attractive you will become to her -- and if you don't become more attractive to her over time, you can bet your bottom dollar she NEVER would have found you attractive in the romantic sense. You don't MAKE a girl start to see you as passion material by putting moves on her. This does not make a girl go, "Oh, what was I thinking! This guy could actually be someone I'd like to kiss! I don't know why that wasn't occurring to me!" That just HAPPENS -- which should come as a HUGE relief to you guys, because it takes a lot of the pressure off. It really is about chemistry that grows by itself and increases all on its own, if you just come in without an agenda except to create a safe space where she wants to be.

 

This cannot be practiced. It's 100% in the moment, every moment.

 

And to actually answer the OP! I double-ditto HF. Any age, it's creepy. But it gets exponentially creepier when someone is old enough to be your grandmother or grandfather, methinks.

[tiredofvampires]

I guess the friendship debate could be taken depending on the point of view. Personally I do not want to be in a relationship with a friend. I would much rather find someone suitable and date them with clear intentions (that is for sex) and become friends with them along the way.

 

See I can understand where the women of this thread are coming from. I don't agree with their point of view and I don't think it is at all rational. From what I can tell the pick up artists is not sincere, he is not interested in you for you because you are special and unique, right ? - I can not conform to that idea.

 

So, CP, what you are saying here is that in regards to the advice I have given above: "I don't have time for this. Nor do I want the emotional liability of having to cultivate something that may not lead to sex in conjunction with a friendship. If I'm going to do this, I need to multitask and prioritize." This is gonna lead you through LOTS more women than actually taking your time. What your approach is, is quantity and banking on hitting a few targets and probabilities; what my approach is, is based on forging meaningful relationships with human beings for the sake of themselves. And along the way, that is how love and passion of the lasting sort develops.

 

Your mentality is basically one of going through a grocery store and picking over a basket of apples. "I am forced to meet many, many women" -- you see one and think "Hmm, nice" and turn it over and if it's a little green, toss. Pick, toss, pick, toss, I don't have time for you or you or you because I need to ensure that when I cultivate something, I am going to get my agenda items all checked off. You might have a dozen short-term shots this way over a span of the next 10 years. Or you could really take the time and risk getting involved in making a genuine human connection for it's own intrinsic value with only a couple of women over the next 3 years and strike water. The gamble is up to you. I think you are risking far more loneliness and emptiness with your method, personally. You have chosen the "game" and the "end product" over the process, the goal over the actual people.

 

If you can't take an emotional risk when you get to know someone, but set out with certain "benchmarks of success", you are setting yourself up for a long merry-go-round ride, my friend that will not land you with a happy union. Then again, you said I think that you just need someone suitable, not "special". I guess you are more interested in securing something than being truly fulfilled in it.

 

You are in WAY too much of a hurry for a guy who is 23. Stop picking over the apples and sit down with one, but a reall good one, and just savor it. Take the chance that "slow and steady" wins the race.

 

Finally: you say you can't agree with the women on this thread, that their comments are not rational. Well, if you can't take it from us women, then you are critically handicapped here. If you can't listen to the very population that you are trying to appeal to, then you're really not interested in being in touch with women's wavenlength, are you? How far is that going to get you in winning one's heart?

[tiredofvampires]

I don't want that.. if something goes wrong it is terrible, I do not want to feel terrible. I want to enjoy dating.

 

Thats why PUA is good, it lets me like me interact on a non personal level it lets me build a barrier I can turn it into a game.

 

Thats why dating friends is bad - their too much of an attachment I cannot deal with.

 

To distill what I said above from these remarks of yours, CP:

 

First comes the ability to form an attachment to someone, and then you can turn a date into something.

 

You cannot turn a date into something and THEN start forming the attachment. You cannot make something from nothing -- which is exactly what you are putting in emotionally.

 

It's not true that women want butterflies from the get-go all the time -- but they do want someone they FEEL can become emotionally invested from the get-go. If you cannot let yourself feel that, you cannot give a woman in the beginning stages the impression that you ever will, and she will not be interested in that. You must be able to convey that, or no tricks in the "game" will ever work for you. And this is the one "trick" that you can't fake. It has to come from a real place of risk and openness. This is the key to your locked door.

 

What you have is a dread of being hurt, which I totally empathize with. But I am afraid that the cure for you is ripping the bandaid off.

[Raiden]

Even Mystery says that "the game" is to be used to meet women in order to get into a real relationship... that its not just ot be toyed with

 

Still doesn't detract from the fact that "Pick-Up-Artistry" is still cheesy and naff, though.

 

In fact, I'll bet there's some girls who would howl with laughter at this whole thing. It's so daft.

[tylercdurden2004]

I liken relationships to bus rides.

If you keep switching buses, to go nowhere.

 

And if you dont have the route map sometimes you have to hop a few different ones to get to your destination.

[Dating Coach]

A good PUA isn't going to send you those signals. He's going to make you feel completely unthreatened and comfrtable. And it isn't so much "rehersed lines" it's rehersed situations.

 

Jaded, you say you don't like someone whom is a PUA, but do you have a problem with a shy guy going to a PUA to help him enhance his social skills so he is not so clueless when he wants to approach an attractive lady?

[jettison]

Interesting generalization here. What are women more inferior at?

 

The book is written by Ashley Montagu. Go check it out. And BTW, Mr. Montagu won't teach you how to pick up chicks unfortunately.

 

[Dating Coach]

Part of participating in a thread is proclaiming disagreement with someone when you happen to disagree. This is the second time you've asked Somebloke to not chime in because he doesn't happen to agree with you. I agree with very little that you're saying, but you don't see my asking you to, essentially, shut up. It's ok. Really. You can be right in your world, and Somebloke can be right in his. There are plenty of people who wholeheartedly agree with you, millions I am sure, and plenty of people who don't.

 

If you don't understand the logic in polite disagreement then you are essentially preaching. "It's my way or no way." Somebloke is not an idiot. He's quite intelligent actually. He just doesn't see things how you see them.

 

Ok?

 

You've got it wrong. A lot of people in here are disagreeing with me and some others. I pointed Somebloke out and not you guys, right? So why would I do that if my sole goal is just to shut someone up whom doesn't agree with me? Why woudl I ignore you guys?

 

I'll tell you why. Somebloke doesn't just disagree, he's not even offering much in the way logic or reasoning. He's just repeating himself and ignoring most of the points made here. That is why his posts are standing out. You guys may disagree, but you're not standing there pointing fingers and saying, "wrong", "wrong", "wrong", you're at least IN the conversation. I see him as standing to the side just telling people they are wrong.