At what age does being a PUA get creepy?

[Raiden]

He doesn't want a relationship with me apparently. We've talked about it and he likes the way we are now. You can break hearts no matter what your label is, lol.

 

My condolences, Carrie. That is a real shame for you.

[tylercdurden2004]

You've mischaracterized the subject at hand. I'm all for that. How do you think I met the women I've been with?

 

Well... some of them approached me, but still... it isn't intergender contact that we were talking about. Change the subject, and the point goes to the other side.

 

 

 

I'm neither a Buddhist nor a potsmoker. We're not going to get anywhere by slinging mud (referring to the latter) at one another. You and I can keep it above that level, I think.

 

 

 

I equate the Durden character from Fight Club with nihilism and Machiavellianism. To say that it doesn't matter how women feel and that nothing should be done to protect them from unwanted sexual advances -which is what PUAs spend most of their energy doing! - is to take a step in that unfortunate direction.

 

 

Never said you were a potsmoker or Buddhist it was a reference to your Zen comment. Which I dont see how that relates to my saying people have a choice.

 

Fight club never really got into the philosophical side of it. Mahciavelli. Yeah I like some of his stuff. I also like some of the softer stuff, form Buddha for instance. I like a bit from both ends of the spectrum. Helps me understand life a bit better.

 

Keeping women PROTECTED from unwanted sexual advances. I could see a few somen taking offence to this. But as the Patricarch of womens sexuality you would be in a better position to explain that.

[dietrying]

My condolences, Carrie. That is a real shame for you.

 

Thank you. It happened 5 months ago so I'm coping better than I used to I guess.

[tylercdurden2004]

We were friends first and I made the mistake of not hinting that I had started to want more until I was already too hurt, and I never directly asked for or admitted anything. As far as he knows I was just having a bad day that day, lol. But he did mention that we are just friends and not in a relationship.

 

So its all a bit confusing then and no one really knows whats going on?

 

You see this is why I advocate being upfront with flirting. Just like Mr Mysterioso does. Leaves no doubt. Everyone can make a decision and leave it at that.

 

In my experience is the "Nice" or shy and uncommuncative people that have the most problems with dating and life in general. They have so much inside just trying to get out but it never really does.

 

My own experience when I was younger reflects that of the "Nice Guys" sometimes it still does.

[dietrying]

So its all a bit confusing then and no one really knows whats going on?

 

Yeah. It seems that what we are just depends what day it is.

 

In my experience is the "Nice" or shy and uncommuncative people that have the most problems with dating and life in general. They have so much inside just trying to get out but it never really does.

 

Throw two "nice" and shy people together and you're bound to get confusion. I've said some misleading things to him myself.

 

I guess I can see a way to appreciate PUA's now. lol

[Raiden]

In my experience is the "Nice" or shy and uncommuncative people that have the most problems with dating and life in general. They have so much inside just trying to get out but it never really does.

 

You're over-generalizing again, tyler. In respect of interacting with the opposite sex, remember to distinguish "Nice" from "Shy".

 

A "Nice" guy is not always shy and uncommunicative with teh opposite sex. He's just not an archetypical (sp? proper word?) Player or Ladies Man.

 

Neither is the "Shy" guy a dirty creep at heart.

[Dating Coach]

You're over-generalizing again, tyler. In respect of interacting with the opposite sex, remember to distinguish "Nice" from "Shy".

 

A "Nice" guy is not always shy and uncommunicative with teh opposite sex. He's just not an archetypical (sp?) Player or Ladies Man.

 

He is not over-generalizing. He said "In my experience". He's describing his experiences.

[jenny_mcs]

 

I equate the Durden character from Fight Club with nihilism and Machiavellianism. To say that it doesn't matter how women feel and that nothing should be done to protect them from unwanted sexual advances -which is what PUAs spend most of their energy doing! - is to take a step in that unfortunate direction.

 

Women don't need to be "protected from unwanted sexual advances." I am perfectly capable, as are all my friends, of letting a guy know when I am not interested. Plus, where are you getting the idea that the advances of these guys who consider themselves pick-up artists are unwanted? Lots of single women go out to bars and clubs to meet guys!

 

I don't think it's helpful in any way to charcaterize guys who are being honest about what they want- to flirt, make conversation, get a number, get a date- as aggressive jerks, and the women they are approaching as so unintelligent and unaware that they must be "protected."

[dietrying]

I think the main reason that I'm more likely to get annoyed or even freaked out is that I'm a virgin.

[Dating Coach]

I'm really starting to like this Jenny girl....

[Daddy Bear]

Women don't need to be "protected from unwanted sexual advances." I am perfectly capable, as are all my friends, of letting a guy know when I am not interested. Plus, where are you getting the idea that the advances of these guys who consider themselves pick-up artists are unwanted? Lots of single women go out to bars and clubs to meet guys!

 

I don't think it's helpful in any way to charcaterize guys who are being honest about what they want- to flirt, make conversation, get a number, get a date- as aggressive jerks, and the women they are approaching as so unintelligent and unaware that they must be "protected."

I most certainly wasn't talking about protecting you, and you can't speak for anyone else.

 

Like I said before: you want that type of thing, have at it. I hang with a whole different type of girl anyway.

[Adrian28]

I most certainly wasn't talking about protecting you, and you can't speak for anyone else.

 

Like I said before: you want that type of thing, have at it. I hang with a whole different type of girl anyway.

 

LOL. I guess nobody told you that women actually "LIKE" being approached??

 

LOL

[Daddy Bear]

LOL. I guess nobody told you that women actually "LIKE" being approached??

 

LOL

Not by sleazeballs, they don't.

 

Well... some might, but none that I would ever touch with a stick.

[Raiden]

I think the main reason that I'm more likely to get annoyed or even freaked out is that I'm a virgin.

 

In respect of being approached by a Player/PUA/Ladies Man? Or... in general?

[Dating Coach]

Define sleezeball. Most people have a pretty similar idea of a sleezeball but with the way these conversations have been going I want to clarify before I post to make sure I am on topic. Just to be safe.

[DN]

The major problem with this thread is that no one agrees what a PUA is - to some he is a person who wants to meet a girl in a pub, have sex with her and dump her afterwards with no regard to her feelings. To others it is someone who has the confidence to approach girls no matter what the setting and start a conversation that may lead to marriage. And others are somewhere in between.

 

You can't have a meaningful debate if you can't even agree what it is you are debating.

 

As for sleazeball - that's going to be even more difficult. Anyone from Nixon to Hefner via the Marquis de Sade.

[Dating Coach]

The major problem with this thread is that no one agrees what a PUA is - to some he is a person who wants to meet a girl in a pub, have sex with her and dump her afterwards with no regard to her feelings. To others it is someone who has the confidence to approach girls no matter what the setting and start a conversation that may lead to marriage. And others are somewhere in between.

 

You can't have a meaningful debate if you can't even agree what it is you are debating.

 

I know. Here is what I sent someone on PM (this is my PM, not anyone elses)

_________________________________

 

I've met loads of players. None of them are PUA's. I've met two PUA's (or guys studying PUA) and neither of them were Players. I still think people are hung up almost primarily upon the name.

 

The guy's I've met irl and study PUA are guys that never had success with women and they are seeking to be taught "how". The guys I know whom are Players have always been Players. They grew up being more successful with women then a lot of other guys and have got used to doing what they wanted. They have no need nor any desire for PUA. In fact, the two players I still run into both laughed about PUA and made fun of the guys learning it, saying how pathetic they must be if they need to be taught PUA... as if all guys are naturally good with women like they were.

 

Perhaps this gives you a little more insight as to where I am coming from. I see PUA helping the dorkier guys, not the jock players.

[Adrian28]

Not by sleazeballs, they don't.

 

Well... some might, but none that I would ever touch with a stick.

 

And you are the one to help them define who is a "sleazeball" and who is not and thus protect them from said characters?

 

I can pretty much guarantee that these in your eyes "virtuous" women who you "hang with" will not tell you what they REALLY think. Just based on how your judgemental comments.

[Adrian28]

As for sleazeball - that's going to be even more difficult. Anyone from Nixon to Hefner via the Marquis de Sade.

 

Maybe a mathematical analogy will help.

 

I think for the purpose of this thread..

 

sleazeball = PUA = A guy who attempts to get off with a lot of women.

 

But, we all know,

 

Nature of man = attempts to get off with a lot of women..

 

So,

 

Man = sleazeball.

[Dako]

No, that's a syllogism.

[Dating Coach]

And you are the one to help them define who is a "sleazeball" and who is not and thus protect them from said characters?

 

I can pretty much guarantee that these in your eyes "virtuous" women who you "hang with" will not tell you what they REALLY think. Just based on how your judgemental comments.

 

To that... women are every bit as sexual by nature as men are. For a long time I denied this to myself... mostly because of what women say. The hard reality is that women aren't angels.. they, like me and the guys, are human.

 

My fiance' is by no means a * * * *. She's been with one other man besides me. She was with him an entire year before they had sex. They dated for 18 months. She was 20 years old. I met her after this. We dated for 3 months before we became sexually active, and we were together 4-5 days a week the entire time. No joke. She's a good Catholic girl with a moral upbringing.

Her sister the other day was at my house after we partied all night. She ended up performing sexual acts on my roommate. They had met before. She knew he wasn't looking for a relationship. I was up with them talking until like 3 AM and finally went to bed. The next morning my friend told me what she did. I was disappointed in her.

 

But why? She's a human, she knew what she was doing. It was her choice, she was sexually aroused and acted on it. When my fiance' hinted to her that we knew her sister immediately sent me a text "I'm not a * * * *!" I know she's not. She doesn't go home with random guys. She was just a human who got horny and acted on it. I didn't respond to her because she doesn't need to explain herself to me.

 

Women are very sexual, but they also have tons more opportunities than men and can afford to be choosier. In addition, they are the ones who have to "carry" the consequences of their actions as well as the reputation. So they will (usually) show more self control, but that doesn't mean the sexual excitement and chemistry isn't there.

[Dating Coach]

To see Mystery and his guys out at a club, go to this link:

 

link removed

 

Scroll down and click on Video in Yellow. Then click on Episode 1 Highlights. When the vid pops up, scroll down on the right hand side and you will see different parts of episode 1 to play. Fine Mystery at the Club 1 & 2. You'll see glimpses of what they do.

 

I am certain by looking at this, a lot of girls would say they would be turned off. I am not saying you wiould be turned on. But when you're there having fun, and someone is making fun conversation and joking back yet keeping their distance from you in the manner you see... you don't feel that way in the moment which is evident by how the ladies respond.

 

It's free, why not take a look.

[Daddy Bear]

I can pretty much guarantee that these in your eyes "virtuous" women who you "hang with" will not tell you what they REALLY think. Just based on how your judgemental comments.

 

That shows how little you really know.

 

I'll ask you politely not to impugn the virtue of the women I care about, without specific cause in hand. Duels have been fought over such things in the past.

[dietrying]

In respect of being approached by a Player/PUA/Ladies Man? Or... in general?

 

Not in general. Just regarding guys who are trying to get me in bed. That will of course make me uneasy considering it's something I haven't done before.

[galaxy71]

To see Mystery and his guys out at a club, go to this link:

 

link removed

 

Scroll down and click on Video in Yellow. Then click on Episode 1 Highlights. When the vid pops up, scroll down on the right hand side and you will see different parts of episode 1 to play. Fine Mystery at the Club 1 & 2. You'll see glimpses of what they do.

 

I am certain by looking at this, a lot of girls would say they would be turned off. I am not saying you wiould be turned on. But when you're there having fun, and someone is making fun conversation and joking back yet keeping their distance from you in the manner you see... you don't feel that way in the moment which is evident by how the ladies respond.

 

It's free, why not take a look.

 

While, I support PUAs in the one hand. I understand why people dislike them so much. Many of the professionals and authorities in the PUA community are misogynist and obnoxious. The guy who is credited with creating the Pick-up community, Ross Jeffries, has a reputation for being an obnoxious jerk who uses hypnotism to seduce women. He referred to his rival David Deangelo as David Deanushole. Thankfully, the community moved away from hypnotism to self-help and building a better personality that is attractive to women.

 

In the link removed page, some of the articles use cuss words and body parts to refer to women. They seem to look at women as inferior, sex objects. At the same time, they are giving good advice on flirting and body language. Yet those articles with great advice were written for the goal of seducing women. These guys analyzed every part of the interaction with the women in terms of how it will achieve their goal of seduction. These guys would be extremely upset if they got a date, but failed to sleep with her at the end of the date. Fortunately, there were plenty of PUAs who realized that pickup could be used for self-improvement and relationships rather than just sex.

 

What I am trying to say is that the guys who misuse pick-up stand out pretty quickly to the point that the society at large understandably develops a negative view of the community. They are the ones sleeping with a lot of women. They are the ones who are charging a lot of money to teach pick-up. I think some of the people who work for TheMysteryMethod Corporation are just plain obnoxious when they use disrespectful terms toward women who sleep with them. These guys don't care when a woman starts crying after he sleeps with her because she realized that she did something wrong. These guys don't care about cheating on their girlfriends. At the same time, these guys do a lot of good when they teach average guys important concepts like body language, and flirting. Many top PUAs present good advice in the worse possible light you can imagine.

 

One minute, these type of PUAs will teach nice guys how to start a conversation with a woman without showing too much interest. The next minute, these same PUAs talk about threesomes and how to entice straight women into having sex with other women. Since these types of PUAs are brazen about their exploits, people from outside of the community will build a negative persception of the community as they notice the misogynist PUAs while overlooking other PUAs who are just trying to improve their confidence and social skills with women.

 

The good thing is that the PUA community is evolving. It has gone away from using lines to seduce women to teaching guys how to be their attractive selves around women. More and more of the people who are entering the community are guys who want to date women rather than looking for another sexual conquest. Companies like PU101, and Charismaarts are attracting those regular guys. However, there is still a lot of work to be done with some of the attitudes of many PUAs. There is still a vocal, influential part of the community that is still clinging into their misogynist ways. Unfortunately, all the guys who misuse pickup are so bad that they cover up all the good things that the community has done for guys who want to improve their success with women.