At what age does being a PUA get creepy?

[jettison]

Digg,

 

"I simply believe that NLP and associated techniques, as applied by the majority of PUA method devotees, are self-serving, manipulative, and not employed for any other reason than to gain access to a woman's vagina. Why is that considered and well-reserached view so impossible for you to deal with?"

 

As applied by the majority. How can either of your determine that? You've already said that you're not a PUA. So, do you just know a few of them? And if so, does knowing a few of them mean you can speak for all of them? Some of them? Most of them? It seems like there are a lot of leaps of faith being made here.

[jettison]

Aw, I like flamboyant people. They push wide the accepted norms of society. Mae West embracing her sexuality, Marlena Deitrich in men's clothes; people like them have contributed to true open-mindedness in a big way. Why, if not for Boy George... wait, scratch that one.

 

 

Well, Mae West and Marlena Deitrich had talent. Boy George? Best not to touch that one. For me, Mystery is on par with Carrot Top. But heh, that's just me. I'm all for embracing the flamboyant, and my musical tastes would attest to that. However, it has to have a sense of humor. If you take yourself too seriously, it doesn't matter what kind of superstar you might be, you're going to be made fun of.

 

Exhibit A: Tom Cruise. How do you think the South Park folks would parody Mystery? I think it might be pretty hysterical.

[Daddy Bear]

That's what I have been saying all along.

You agree, then, that most of the guys who employ PUA methods are looking for a booty call? That's my take, and the PUA sites themselves back me up.

[Dating Coach]

Digg,

 

"I simply believe that NLP and associated techniques, as applied by the majority of PUA method devotees, are self-serving, manipulative, and not employed for any other reason than to gain access to a woman's vagina. Why is that considered and well-reserached view so impossible for you to deal with?"

 

As applied by the majority. How can either of your determine that? You've already said that you're not a PUA. So, do you just know a few of them? And if so, does knowing a few of them mean you can speak for all of them? Some of them? Most of them? It seems like there are a lot of leaps of faith being made here.

 

I know a couple guys studying it. I know they aren't players.

 

IMO a lot of Players call themselves PUA's but I think it's more of a "bragging label" than any real fact. IMO any guy who relies on his looks to get girls is no PUA. Sure, he might be able to pick up girls but he's not using social skills, he's using something he was born with... good genetics. This doesn't mean that you can't be good looking AND have superior social skills though.

 

I think the whole label is misconstrued. We don't need two different names for guys who play women. They are Players. They don't need to be called PUA's too... because a someone whom is skilled at meeting and attracting women (a PUA) could be a Player, or he could be a genuine guy looking for a life-mate. Why do we have to group all PUA's with Players? It's unfair to the PUA's whom mastered skills to A) Meet their life-mate, or B) Help other clueless men meet their life-mate.

 

That's my point. If you want to call some PUA's Players, then yeah, they probably deserve it. No arguments. Just don't call all of them Players. On top of that, why dis the skill itself? It's helping a lot of lonely men out there getting help, and that makes me happy as I recall 10 years ago what it was like to be desperate and lonley. Through enhancing my social skills and confidence I now am the lucky soon-to-be husband of this lovely young lady:

 

 

[Dating Coach]

You agree, then, that most of the guys who employ PUA methods are looking for a booty call? That's my take, and the PUA sites themselves back me up.

 

Who is in a position to rightfully say "most" or "few"? All I know is that I met a few guys learning the stuff, and they are good guys-which proves that not all PUA students are bad men out to take advantage of women for sex.

[JadedStar]

Diggity, it is no secret that the term "pick up artist" for men has as many negative connotations as "gold digger" does for women. Both are practicing techniques in their dating world to grab a means to an end.

 

How would you feel about a thread where some women were vehemently arguing that gold diggers are not at all what society thinks they are, and are in fact looking for quality relationships, just that the men had to have money? Wouldn't you think they were full of baloney?

[Dating Coach]

Diggity, it is no secret that the term "pick up artist" for men has as many negative connotations as "gold digger" does for women. Both are practicing techniques in their dating world to grab a means to an end.

 

Yes, it has many negative connotations out there, but it doesn't apply to all guys whom learn PUA skills. Which is why I, jenny, and others took the side to defend those guys. Just because a guy is employing things he learned from PUA doesn't mean he's not a good guy or he's doing something wrong. And in fact, evidence shows that with these improved skills he will be more attactive and offend or bore less women.

 

How would you feel about a thread where some women were vehemently arguing that gold diggers are not at all what society thinks they are, and are in fact looking for quality relationships, just that the men had to have money? Wouldn't you think they were full of baloney?

 

I would mark "Gold Digger" in the same boat as "Player", and not the same as a "PUA".

[Siriana]

I think those classes give you "instructions" how to be confident when trying to get a number from the girl.

They just teach you how to approach girls.

If we give our number you'll go on several (or just one) dates with the guy.

That's when our "bull..." radar is on.

So how hard it is to know if someone is just making a show?

You just know.

You can't be tricked that much.

 

The only thing he can get is a date with you.

The rest is in our hands.

[jettison]

Diggity,

 

Not dissing the skill. Have never dissed the skill. The skill is aces with me. Only dissing the subculture behind it for the cheezy poofs factor. Of course, there could be tons of self-proclaimed PUAs that I know absolutely nothing about. I've only seen Mystery and happened upon a few random websites. It's possible that everyone else out there is God's gift to lonely men everywhere. I have no idea.

 

I don't personally seek it out because it doesn't interest me because I don't have any problems talking to women.

 

Let me reiterate quite clearly that I have ZERO problem with what you do, nor with most of your assertations about your personal stake in this and the way you approach women. Even if I did have a problem with it, who the heck am I? I'm just stating an opinion, much like we all do here on ENA.

 

However, I searched PUA, and after reading about it, I am ready to change my mind. It's not at all like I pictured it, and it obviously really helps people.

 

link removed

[jettison]

I think those classes give you "instructions" how to be confident when trying to get a number from the girl.

They just teach you how to approach girls.

If we give our number we'll you go on several (or just one) dates with the guy.

That's when our "bull..." radar is on.

So how hard it is to know if someone is just making a show?

You just know.

You can't be tricked that much.

 

The only thing he can get is a date with you.

The rest is in our hands.

 

Good point Syrix. I agree with that completely. It may get a date, but it's certainly not going to get anyone a relationship. For folks who have severe problems even talking to strangers then this a certain amount of sense for them.

[JadedStar]

Diggity, I would think that Mystery should call it something other than a pick up artist then, because women all over the place have very negative connotations associated with that term, much like i said in my above post that men have with the term "gold diggers". I am sure there are many classes taught by other women that helps women find "very gainfully employed" husband potentials. Well we can call it that but at the end of the day most of us call that a gold digger.

 

So any guy practicing under an instructor who teaches one how to be a pick up artist and the girl of their aim finds that out, no amount of talking in the world will likely make her think that a pick up artist is not sleazy.

[BlueWolf]

You kidding me? Everyone loves pick-up artists when the meet them!

And most of the time the girls that say PUAs are creepy, go out on nights to party, and get picked up by PUAs without even knowing that the person picking them up is a PUA. That's how that works.

 

So women can read all sorts of stuff on how to manipulate men, but when men start bettering their lives, women find it creepy?

 

The world ain't a fair place. And we can live with that.

[tiredofvampires]

DN -- I'd like to know, just for the record, what is considered "argumentative and off topic". I'd PM you about this but thought maybe others might want to know as well, since I feel honestly confused and surprised at some of the deletions here. I don't want to see threads closed, or posts deleted, and try to maintain my respect of others when here, myself. I have been following this entire thread and while there is quite a bit of tension (which goes along with argumentation), I have seen no posts that I would have expected to be deleted.

 

In my case, for those who might wonder what my deleted post was about, I thanked somebloke for the very surprising but welcome adjective "succinct" describing my posts, added a side joke (jokes that aren't offensive occur on nearly every thread to break the tension, I notice) that I should take lessons from him and Dako in posting; and then I simply told somebloke that I think his responses are reasoned, not just asserting or repeating a point of view without explanation.

 

Why is this "off-topic and argumentative"? I'm not asking to rile anything up but to maybe shed some light on what the standards are here, when there is no flaming or extensively irrelevant stuff, that some things get deleted. Maybe it would help increase the chances of not having interesting threads shut down such as this one. Thank you for your clarification.

[Daddy Bear]

Who is in a position to rightfully say "most" or "few"?

 

Anyone who has examined the available evidence without the contamination of preconceived notions regarding what he or she would find. Specifically, me. Look at the PUA websites, dude. Tell me what YOU see.

 

All I know is that I met a few guys learning the stuff, and they are good guys-which proves that not all PUA students are bad men out to take advantage of women for sex.

 

You're basing your hundred-thousand word opinion on that anecdotal evidence? That seems, uh, a little unscientific. Besides, who has ever said that there weren't exceptions to the general rule of scumbaggery?

[BlueWolf]

Well, why is it important to someone here if they *seem* creepy or not?

Ask the regular people who have met up with PUAs. Jeez. You can't solve this here.

 

Where is your proof?

[Dating Coach]

I think those classes give you "instructions" how to be confident when trying to get a number from the girl.

They just teach you how to approach girls.

If we give our number we'll you go on several (or just one) dates with the guy.

That's when our "bull..." radar is on.

So how hard it is to know if someone is just making a show?

You just know.

You can't be tricked that much.

 

The only thing he can get is a date with you.

The rest is in our hands.

 

I mentioned this in another thread:

 

Say a guy walks up to you slowly, you see him coming, he puts on a strut, and stops directly in front of you saying, "Hey, what's up girl? What's your name?"

 

You're probably going to look at this guy like he's mentally challenged. He might be a jerk, he might just be a guy wiht poor social skills and has no idea that by walking up and talking as he did he provoked immediate negativity from you.

 

Say another guy is caught checking you out all night long. Everytime you glance at him he glances away, but he does it all night. By the end of the night he never comes up to you.

 

You're probably not going to walk over there and say, "Hey, I saw you looking at me so here's my number, call me and we can go out on a date."

 

Say another guy approaches you when you're out on the dance floor and starts trying to grind on you.

 

Chances are, you're not going to be very receptive towards him for walking up and getting frisky, unless he's gorgeous and you want to talk to the guy and even then you still probably wouldn't.

 

Say another guy walks up to you and says, "Hi" and then stands there for a second all nervous. And then after a few awkward moments he says, "So what do you do for a living?" and after answering he goes, "I'm in the furniture business, we have some good deals, you outta come check them out sometime, here's my card!"

 

I doubt this guy is going to come accross at that moment as a sweet man that you're interested in going out with.

 

Say you're standing at the bar all night talking to a friend, and throughout the entire night you had 4 different guys come up by you to order a drink themselves and they all started the conversation as, "Hi, I'm Mike (John/Rick/Steve), what's your name." and idle chatter ensues with you knowing that each guy is interested in you.

 

None of those guys did much different, just the same old bar approach you get everytime you're out. Will it not be difficult for one of these guys to stand out from the others? You'll probably have to analyze their looks, their dress, their smile, their breath, their level of intoxication, etc before even determining whether or not you'd even consider giving him your number or even your interest.

 

What a PUA teaches guys is to be different, interesting, show that you're someone of value and not some loser who's just trying to pick you up like the rest of the guys above.

A PUA (like Mystery) tries to teach guys to approach a group. For example a guy asked Mystery if a pretty girl in a group catches his eye, should he wait till she leaves the group to approach.

Mystery responded no, you're chasing her down and stopping her from the restroom which is rude on it's own but also shows that you're chasing her, signalling your interest.

He said what he would do is wait for the girl to leave, and approach the group as a whole while she is in the restroom. He'd approach the group in a completely non-threatening manner, sending off signals that he's a funny and fun guy (with jokes, teasing, showing equal interest in all parties) and get generally aquainted. He would then be in a position to where when the girl came back, her own friends would introduce him to her. This is a good way to meet someone, when their own friends introduce you.

If there was no introduction he could use lines like, "Introduce me to your friend, it's the polite thing to do" in a semi-joking semi-serious manner. Even little things like that signal your value subconsciously. No one wants to be considered rude, and it was sort of true, not to introduce someone is kind of rude, so saying that in a joking/serious way would remind them subconsciously that they may have been rude to you and in turn they will try to be extra nice.

 

Little things like that, where the person starts trying to prove themselves to you, that they are nice, likable, etc especially with beautiful women whom are used to guys trying to prove themselves to them, it causes a shift in the usual situation. This in turn puts the guy in a position where he stands out more.

 

That was a very very minor example, and it does get more involved, but that's PUA methods. There is nothing there about cheating, about sex, about anything like that. It's about presenting yourself and carrying yourself in a way that is different, in a way that presents yourself better without barrelling right in, and a way that shows that you're not just a guy who's after you but a guy you have to win over. If you can get that signal accross subconsciously your chances of standing out and being worth further inquiry by the girl will be much much better.

[JadedStar]

I am also extremely confused about the deletion of one of my posts with the context of argumentative and off topic. I know that everythign i have written here on this thread has not been with any dissention in mind and I have been careful to assert my views in a diplomatic and non argumentative manner. I am really baffled at this particular deletion. >>

[dietrying]

Amazing post! Wish more guys would listen to it.

 

Don't why guys assume a girl can't fall for her best friend. Close friendship is the number 1 way to get my interest. (and the only way to get interest that's worth anything) But of course some friends won't be more because they aren't the right guys for me. Has nothing to do with them being my friends. Friendship isn't dreadful. lol

 

One of my friends at college has been trying to win me for a long time by doing favors, being my emotional sponge, and generally showing what a thoughtful guy he is...things that guys do in the friendzone that kind of push girls away further. But when another friend does these same "nice guy" things I get all giddy lol....just depends how I feel about the person in the first place.

 

I don't believe that attraction can be created in a big stirring pot. lol. Not lasting attraction that's worth something anyway. Maybe being a PUA (still rolling my eyes at the term, lol) helps them out in the first conversation but after that they're on their own. I value personality highly. Real personality. Not whatever their cooking up based on psychology. Guys have put on interesting fronts with me countless times then later on I've realized he's like every other guy out there...it's getting tiring. There's a huge difference in acting original and being original. (Getting ideas from someone else isn't really original I should probably add.) An original guy can even do unoriginal things and I'll still be captivated by him, if that makes any sense.

 

I don't believe you can make a person feel exactly the way you want them to. Sure you can put yourself in the best light but everything else is up to them. I've read quite a few dating self-help books, because believe me I've needed a lot of help lol...so I'm not coming to this conclusion without studying it first.

 

However, I see a guy working up the courage to approach a girl he really likes a different thing entirely. Don't need a fancy label for that.

 

 

 

This stands out as well. And I love your signature.

[jettison]

Just in case anyone wonders about Mystery....

 

image removed

[SomeOldDude]

I need to know when to quit before then ..

 

In answer to the original question: Brad Pitt is in his 40s, I think George Clooney is in his 50s, Warren Beaty is in his 60s or early 70s. Although only one of them could plausibly be considered a PUA I am quite certain that thousands of woman of any age wouldn't consider it creepy to be hit on by them.

[Dating Coach]

You're basing your hundred-thousand word opinion on that anecdotal evidence? That seems, uh, a little unscientific. Besides, who has ever said that there weren't exceptions to the general rule of scumbaggery?

 

You're basing yours off some message board. Do you think that message board is a representation of the entire PUA community? The two guys I know learning this don't ever post on any board. Perhaps the board is a place where typical losers are drawn to in order to talk about themselves. That could be 10% of the entire PUA community for all we know. You can no more use that example as I can use mine to say the majority of PUA's are guys looking for a serious relationship.

 

And my whole point is that it is unfair to judge the community as a whole. Even if 20% of guys learning PUA are great guys (more than that IMO), it's still unfair to classify the whole thing as dirty and wrong. Even if it were 10%!

 

So my point stands, don't judge the whole thing, judge the individual.

[Dating Coach]

One of my friends at college has been trying to win me for a long time by doing favors, being my emotional sponge, and generally showing what a thoughtful guy he is...things that guys do in the friendzone that kind of push girls away further.

 

Why aren't you dating that guy?

[JadedStar]

In answer to the original question: Brad Pitt is in his 40s, I think George Clooney is in his 50s, Warren Beaty is in his 60s or early 70s. Although only one of them could plausibly be considered a PUA I am quite certain that thousands of woman of any age wouldn't consider it creepy to be hit on by them.

 

Aside from Brad Pitt, whom I don't think is all that anyway, these guys are known for sleazy womanizing tactics. While Clooney is dreamy to look act, this is NOT the kind of guy i want hitting on me in the real world. You can't even make this a logical comparison because many male or females would feel starstruck to just have a celeb TALK to them, much less try to pick them up.

 

If any of those three men were average guys i met in a bar and i knew about their womanizing tactics i would not give them time of day. Knowing their celeb status i would only give them time of day long enough to get an autograph and say "hey I met Clooney/Pitt or Beatty".

[DN]

Please understand that this is a long thread with a lot of posts to read. The thread was becoming personal - in that people were not arguing the point but arguing against other people's morals, character or whatever. When that happens it can easily turn into a flame war - if it hasn't already.

 

Basically, off-topic occurs when someone makes a comment not strictly related to the thread, someone else makes a comment in return and so on. Before we know it we can have a page and half of people complimenting each other on using words like 'succinct' instead of addressing the actual issue raised by the OP. It's certainly preferable to someone flaming - much more civilised and pleasant - but still off-topic. Very often we will let it go if it's just a couple of posts but on a long thread like this where many posts are being deleted it's just too distracting.

 

Mods can delete posts one at a time and state the reason and we often do. So you might see the reason given as 'off-topic' and an answer to it deleted as "refers to deleted post'. But when it becomes necessary to delete over twenty posts that becomes much too time consuming and so I simply flagged and deleted all such posts at one time giving a sort of' generic' reason.

 

Post that contain any sort of personal attack even if by innuendo are not acceptable. Argue the point not the person.

[dietrying]

Why aren't you dating that guy?

 

Because I didn't feel anything for him in the first place. If he would have been smarter about attracting women (oh the things I'm so tempted to teach him lol) I still wouldn't have seen him as more than a friend. He's not a good match for me. We just don't click. Doesn't matter how he acts.