LotusBlack

If you read properly, I said you have not reached that level yet, but I can see it developing that way if you continue on in this direction. You keep reiterating that he is a grown man. He may be a grown man, but he is still the child of someone and I don’t get the impression it was all set up and done in some covert operation as you seem to be painting it as. Furthermore, I wasn’t actually referring to the tracker or bank account when I made my comment, I had been referring to your manner. You are not entitled to your partner and all aspects of his life just because you’re his partner. However, you are showing signs of developing that nature in the way you talk about him and his mother. The title of your post was not, “I think my FMIL and partner are enmeshed and have crossed some boundaries I’m concerned about.” Your post was about a comment your FMIL made at a dinner you thought you were invited to. Yet, you are holding onto a topic that is entirely unrelated to your original post with a veracity that boarders unhealthy. Your concern was acknowledged and the situation remedied immediately. It’s done. Case closed. If your partner came and posted online about the same topics you have discussed, I think most people here would say that your FMIL’s comment was hurtful and she would do well to practice being a bit more diplomatic. They would also likely support the idea to remove the tracker and access to your partner’s bank account and establish some healthier boundaries. That’s fair and no one is suggesting it isn’t. But, had he written also about the attitude you are currently displaying here, both to the people in your life (FMIL and partner) and the people commenting on your thread genuinely trying to offer you valuable insight as a completely unbiased third party with no dog in the race but collectively decades of experience as parents, partners, and being both M/FIL as well as D/SIL and received the kind of responses you are giving here, many of us would also likely highlight that these are red flags to be concerned about and you are exhibiting a proclivity for overstepping and enforcing your values onto another, which may (and has often been observed with others who share the same proclivity) lead to controlling behaviour with time. I offer a genuine word of warning because I am outside of the situation and have a clear view in, that some of your attitude does not come across well and is a point of concern in the context of a relationship. Take my observation or leave it, your choice. But just recognise that as clearly as you notice an issue with your partner and his mother’s relationship, we notice an issue with you and yours. If you took in on board as quickly as your partner seems to have taken your opinion on board, people here would be a lot less concerned.

Why do you need to be blaming anyone, though? No one committed a terrible thing they need to repent for. Your partner and his mother have been a family for his entire life and may have unintentionally developed a dependency on each other that was not at all insidious in nature. You recognised there to be a dependency issue and they remedied that without a problem. Their behaviour is only problematic if it is toxic and mentally damaging to themselves and/or others, such as controlling, gaslighting, behaving like a helicopter parent that forces their children to conform to ideals and choices that go against their own personal values, wants and desires/feelings. I don’t see any of that here. I feel your view is entirely disproportionate to the “crime” you seem determined to convict them of. You are being very short-sighted and lack the perspective of a parent, which is not your fault as you are not a parent. But, I do think you run the very great risk of losing this man if you insist on behaving like a crowbar intent on forcing apart family members and isolating your partner. You may not have reached that level as yet, but I can very much see it developing that way as you become more and more intolerant of this thing and that thing as time goes on and you feel your position in his life is more important and a greater priority than even his own life.

OP, I think a little perspective is needed here to get things back on track. Your FMIL is not someone who actively tries to sabotage you or your relationship. She is not a terrible human being who assaults and abuses people, is cruel and negligent, who steals or lies or any other number of horrible, indefensible things. She’s a woman who, in your defence, lacked some tact at a time where you thought and expected you would be welcomed happily, but rather felt hurt and shocked when your FMIL was undiplomatically surprised at your presence. It may be true that she and her son are /were mildly enmeshed, whether that be knowingly or unintentionally. They have taken steps to remedy that. Good. She, although not as successfully as you’d have liked, did try to improve the evening after you had arrived and in all other previous interactions been kind and welcoming to you. You may not like how involved she is at times, but there are worse things in the world a mother/person can be towards another. It’s a small, tiny pebble in your shoe, not a giant, jagged rock that cuts up your skin and makes it impossible to walk. She gave birth to and raised the man you love so very much and much of how he turned out likely has a lot to do with the people who raised him. Pick your battles and keep reminding yourself to really consider what is worth feeling upset over and what is worth enforcing certain boundaries on. You don’t need to be a door mat or be okay with all aspects of their dynamic all the time. You can respectfully discuss with your partner what feels okay and what you don’t agree and then come to a compromise. Always treat others, including your FMIL, with respect. Respect is not just how you treat someone to their face but also how you talk about them when they are not present. You feel very bad after you heard some of the conversations your fiancé and FMIL had regarding you and so too I think both your FMIL and fiancé might feel hurt to see how you have written about them here. Perspective, OP.

I agree with the others. This woman was cruel, self-serving, and in violation of the law and animal rights. She is not a person to remain with. Furthermore, I once met and fell in love with a man from Germany (I’m Australian and we met in Aus). After being together nearly a year, he had to return to Germany and his family home. We were both 25 at the time and we didn’t want to end our relationship, so he asked me to move together with him to his family’s house. It was 2 stories with 3 levels and each level was self contained. We occupied the bottom level but often came up to his parent’s level to spend time. I was so respectful of their house, their rules, their pets, and their person. I could never conceive of violating any one of those things in any kind of way, even if how they did things was different to how I did thing. Their house, their rules, and I would not have had it any other way. Your girlfriend needs some lessons in social etiquette and gratitude. However, that would not undo the damage already in your family and the fact you would not be sad if she left means that this relationship has already ended, you just haven’t actioned that yet. Don’t waste your future days, weeks, months, and years on this finished relationship. In your shoes, I’d end things and let her know in no uncertain circumstances that she is lucky you didn’t report her to the police and if she knows what is in her best interests then she will leave with dignity and not return to your house again.

I agree with all of this. OP, I don’t think anything untoward was intended. I have a 3yo son and hope one day if he decides to commit to a partner, he can still independently pursue events with me and others without his partner assuming dual attendance each time.

I don’t know, OP; I think this is a lot or energy spent on one comment that seems to me like it was made more out of surprise than the intention of being rude. Sure, you had concerns about the level of enmeshment your FMIL has with her son, but you were genuinely surprised by the comment for the very fact that she has always treated you kindly. In your shoes, I’d forget about it and brush it off as a one-off unintended slight. Yes, it is a bit strange that it was presented to you as an engagement dinner and yet she was surprised you were there. But, perhaps something got lost in translation. In any case, don’t let this be the hill you die on. Forget about it and move forward with her just as you would have had she not made the comment. No need to twist yourself up in a knotted pretzel speculating on her intentions. It’s not your problem what she thinks. You do you. It’s not worth the stress.

I find this statement quite problematic/concerning because the damage has already been done and NOW you want to assess the potential risks of continuing on? It’s like dropping a grenade into a situation and then walking away before the clean up so you can decide if you really do want to level the town or not, but it’s already after the fact. That consideration should have occurred before you took steps to engage with her outside of a professional and platonic nature. I’m not advocating for continuing on with her at this point but I also feel like you caused damage for no reason as well if you’re not going to stay the course. That tells me that neither you nor her were truly serious about each other and dedicated to being together and doing things the right way. So, I’d cut my losses and move on and forward, learning from your bad choices. To clarify, I don’t think there is anything wrong with a man (even at your age) wanting to pursue a relationship with a woman who already has children, if he is sure of himself and the relationship he wishes to establish. The issue is not your age or your ex being a single mother, it’s that you went about the whole thing with no amount of emotional maturity or integrity. Had I been in your situation I would have been open and clear about how I felt and what I would like to happen but that it would not be happening within the context of an affair and no boundaries would be crossed. If the feelings are true, then they would be able to endure the time it takes for the previous one to end in a healthy and respectful way. “Innocently” sleeping with her a few times while she is married/not officially separated before cutting and running does not a healthy relationship make, nor does it make you innocent in all this. I think it might this that your friends and family took issue with as you displayed a lack of maturity in this whole situation and maturity is something you need a great deal of when pursuing a relationship with a single mother of 2, especially as a young man.

I think you should absolutely tell your wife, as It’s not your place or right to make her choice for her and she cannot make an informed choice if she remains ignorant to the event. Although some might suggest to withhold the information to “spare” her feelings, the fact is that you haven’t spared her feelings, she just doesn’t know that yet. A marriage is built on honesty and when you lose that, regardless of the other person being aware of it or not, you really don’t have a marriage. And one day she may find out and feel not just betrayed by the action but betrayed again because she wasn’t given the option to decide for herself. You made it about yourself when you cheated and did not consider your wife, and to keep it secret would be you doing the same thing and making it about yourself again, but disguised as concern for your wife’s emotional well-being. Like the misplaced trust your wife put in you, you must now trust your wife to make the right choice for her life and that might be to work on rebuilding the relationship or to leave it. It’s her right to decide, if not, your marriage becomes a lie and nothing ever built on a lie lasts.

OP, to be clear, your correcting the lady of your preferred name to be addressed by wasn’t the problem. She apologised and said she’d not do so in the future. Her extra information wasn’t, I believe, intended to be condescending but providing you an explanation as to why she used the endearment and that she’d not meant offence. Your follow-up reply about it not being work-place appropriate was what was rude and unnecessary when she’d already apologised and confirmed not to do it again. You spoke in this thread about not wanting to waste words on pleasantries, but you wasted words on calling someone out unnecessarily. So…🤷🏻‍♀️ I suggest you work on developing your workplace manner to be more positive, otherwise you’re going to constantly find yourself in uncomfortable situations like this. Perhaps, for your own happiness, maybe consider working on feeling less rigid about certain things because, in the grand scheme of things, at the end of your life do you want to look back on the energy you wasted worrying about things that weren’t intended to slight, or do you want to just be happy?

That makes 4 of us! Also, what led you to this discovery?

I absolutely second this, OP. I too, got a divorce and it was hard because I loved my husband so fiercely and genuinely got married to him because I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him - I meant my vows. We also had a 2yo toddler who is now only 3 and a half. I even had to fly, alone, from the UK to Aus with our son in a situation that felt incredibly painful and wrong to be doing. Everything inside me was burning with the loyalty I felt to my husband and our marriage and leaving -and subsequently filing for divorce on my own- hurt more than words can describe, and it still hurts if I think too long on it. But, I pulled my strength and was resolved. Despite my love, my vows, my feelings, I left because it was the only way forward. So, all this to say, if your affair partner truly felt committed to you and in love, she’d end her marriage without hesitation - and all the more easily because she supposedly doesn’t love her husband (and I fundamentally disagree with the notion you can be in love with more than one person at a time. I think people misunderstand and then mislabel feelings of “love” for more than 1 person at a time). If I can do it when deeply in love and with a toddler (and the daunting prospect of flying alone internationally with said toddler during a pandemic and in deep grief) then she can too. That she doesn’t is a huge neon sign to you that she isn’t committed to you in any way, shape or form. A person in love will move heaven and earth to be with the person they love, not twiddle their thumbs on the issue for 2 years and then head off onto a family holiday.

Having a piece of paper that states one is divorced doesn’t automatically make one less emotionally vulnerable, or vice verse. It depends on each individual and how they feel. My brother was separated from his wife for years before they officially divorced because his ex couldn’t afford her half of the process for a while. He was separated about 3 years with little to no contact with his ex when he met his now fiancé. They were together about a year when he was finally able to get the divorce finalised. I think it really depends on the individual and their specific circumstances, and how they particularly feel. Some people, like myself, had to wait 18 months after ending a relationship before pursuing a divorce legally due to formalities and circumstance; the piece of paper changed nothing for me emotionally once I had it.

It is alarming in how dismissive you are of the influence and impact a partner and parental figure can have on a young child. At this moment, you are right to have no interaction with the daughter and nor should you unless and until you become a serious couple with the mother. However, as you have stated that your vision is the long-aim and have even planned/allowed for at least the next year, it is important to factor in an inevitable relationship and responsibility for the daughter (to some extent) if you hope this relationship culminates in cohabiting with the mother and daughter pair. That does not mean you will replace the father or become primary carer at all (or even actively involved in the parental decisions), but you will become a family unless you intend to permanently maintain separate households. So, yeah, your dismissiveness and crude way of referring to the situation is alarming because it highlights a lack of maturity in your thinking and a lack of awareness of a parent and child package. Normally, being so early in the relationship, this topic might be premature, but you have stated you see potential for a long-term partnership, so you must consider long-term potential aspects of what could become your family. I’m also not at all unsettled; I’m a stranger on the internet answering your post as an unbiased third party. I have no dog in the race to be unsettled about, but as the single mother of a toddler, I can genuinely say that if the person I was seeing spoke of a potential dynamic with my child the way you did, I’d be concerned.🤷‍♀️

I second Batya and boltnrun’s concerns regarding how you spoke of her child. Alarming language.

I couldn’t remember if OP said she had filed or hadn’t filed as yet. My wording was a bit odd with my adding “process” rather than just “pursuing”, which - when considering my own situation - allowed for her not having done so yet but with the intention to pursue a divorce. In my own situation, my ex-husband told me he never considered me his wife from the moment we got married and it was a bit of meaningless paper because the love and intention to be a married couple was not there and never had been for his part. So, when we separated and I moved to Australia, I had to wait 12 months before I could file, but in the interim I gathered all the documents I would need and laid the foundation for the divorce for when the time came that I could file. So, although the divorce process had not actually begun, I considered myself in the process of pursuing a divorce rather than pursuing one in actuality at that time. I also considered myself single because there was no option for a reconciliation, we were living internationally from each other, and my then-husband had made it clear I was nothing but a horrible mark tarnishing his life and never his wife in spirit or commitment. The situation of the woman OP writes about is surely very different to mine, but her circumstances might be such that the context of her marriage has been rendered or reduced to represent little in value or authenticity, such as mine was, and her potential divorce may just be waiting on formalities. If her and her ex consider themselves single (if indeed they do) despite the legal marriage withstanding, then I think I cannot be one to argue that point.

She is separated and living with her daughter apart from her ex and is in the process of pursuing a divorce, I believe. OP and the woman are currently just dating and he’s posting here asking advice on whether it may be too soon for the woman and if he should hold back from investing too much at this time given the circumstances.

I agree. I think some of the commenters here have taken some points that were very brief and not detailed, then made quite severe judgements about what the woman’s intentions likely are, her integrity, and her judgement. OP said he sees the woman once a week, so that means the rest of the week is very likely dedicated to her daughter and their life as a family of 2. And, it is likely very good for her daughter to spend time with the grandparents in a happy, loving, and nurturing environment. That she is there doesn’t automatically = neglect or a lack of care and consideration from the mother. The rest of the week, mum may be doing lots of special things with her daughter. As far as dating while separated - it depends on the case. In Australia, you must be separated 12 months before you can file. I found out right after I got married that my husband didn’t love me, never had, and got married to solve a problem. We were married 3 years and pandemic prevented us from separating physically until I left for Australia. I have now been divorced 6 months and have been on 3 dates over the course of the last 8-9 months - 2 dates just prior to my divorce and 1 after. So, I don’t think it is fair to automatically judge someone based on a legal status or throw shade at their integrity as a parent based on the little information we have.

I started my first degree at 24/25 years old because I had a debilitating anxiety disorder that had me trapped inside my own house for 3 years - I couldn’t even look outside the window without either becoming catatonic or having a massive panic attack. The anxiety disorder began when I was very young though, 8. That 3-year period lasted from the age of 17-19/20 years old. I couldn’t finish high school. At 20/21 I forced myself out of my house and forced myself overseers and remained living in various countries abroad in order to tackle my anxiety disorder in an extreme way, because I had life goals, hopes and dreams to become an archaeologist and Egyptologist. I eventually overcame my anxiety just enough to function in society and undertook an entrance examination and got into uni at 24/25. I was a lot older than a large percentage of students in my field, which made dating hard, but I was also younger than a large percentage too. There was no judgement at all and I didn’t feel like I needed to explain or justify myself. I had also very limited experience with physical intimacy - a little more than you but that was a couple of years earlier and just one relationship; however, I didn’t feel strange about it or the need to announce that to anyone I might have potentially dated. I did, in fact, end up meeting someone at 25 and he was a few months older than me and doing his Masters degree in a different field to what I was doing my Bachelor in. So, there is a lot of diversity in the student population at university and women your age are not likely to be judgemental at all, at least not the ones worth dating. I went on to study my Masters at 32, met and married my [now ex-] husband - who is a few months younger and was doing his post-doc at uni - and had a baby who is now 3 and a half years old. I’m now about to turn 37 and looking into pursuing my PhD. So, good things can happen at any age and stage! So sorry for your loss and struggles, but also very excited for your future. You have your life ahead of you with so much opportunity still. Enjoy it and make the most of it!

OP, I think you correctly identified that long distance relationships are too difficult for you, as they trigger your anxiety. I don’t think anyone on this thread realised quite how severe your anxiety is at the beginning of this thread. I think it is very good that you are self-aware enough to recognise your limits and I think that even if this man is interested in you, you are evidently not ready to handle long-distance. As such, I think it would be beneficial for you to definitively decide in your own self not to pursue anything romantic with him and focus on treating your debilitating anxiety. There is no reason the ball can’t be in your court and you’re able to decide for yourself irregardless of what this guy may or may not feel. i hope you find some peace.

You truly do spiral out of anxiety control. I would earnestly encourage you to seek some counselling in order to deal with you’re overwhelming and irrational thoughts. I don’t get the feeling you’re even trying to counteract those thoughts when they come up and it is really unfair on the person you are interacting with. You and he haven’t had any kind of negative issue to where he has a reason to avoid you, so likely he is busy. Calm down and try to be reasonable with yourself. Also, regarding him not bringing up visiting you - it could be awkward on his end to invite himself to someone else’s place after weeks with little/no contact. Although previously you invited him, it can be uncomfortable for someone -a guest - to remind a person - the host- about such a thing. So, (depending on what you wrote in your last text) I would query the loose plan for confirmation one way or the other.

If someone is married and genuinely believes they are in the wrong relationship, they take steps to remove themselves from that situation, regardless of any outside people or influences. At least, an emotionally healthy and mentally mature individual does. They do not look to cross relationship boundaries whilst committed to another. The man you believe you love (and who loves you) does not have integrity, as is evident by his very inappropriate comments towards you. He does not have loyalty to his wife or the commitment he made to her and their marriage. This lack of propriety is a very real reflection of his character and will not change no matter who he is in a relationship with - including you if that were to ever happen. He is a Mr. Wickham. Do not give your precious feelings to someone who will not value them, and I can say with certainty that he does not value you or your feelings because a man with integrity who believes you are someone with integrity too, would never put you in the position he has put you in by being suggestive and confident you will take the bait. I’d be offended if a man thought so little of me that I make an easy target and am someone who lacks morals and boundaries, such that I would be receptive to an illicit affair, because that is what any connection between you two would be - an affair; he is not leaving his wife because he has shown no indication of taking the necessary steps to do so. Move away, find your happiness - which may or may not need the help of a licensed therapist for guidance, and make good choices. This man is not a good choice.

I have told a man I loved him before he told me. My aim in saying it was not for him to say it back to me simply because I said it to him. I didn’t say it out of insecurity and wanting him to return the sentiment as a form of relationship reassurance. I said it to him for the pure fact that I could no-longer NOT say it. I was compelled to share how I felt with him because I couldn’t hold it to myself anymore. I think I was about 3 months in. As my intention was to share how I felt, I wasn’t concerned if he said it back or not because I already knew he was happy together with me and that was enough at that point, even if his feelings weren’t quite there yet. I remember we were laying down and I told him how I felt. He squeezed me tightly and I felt him smile against the top of my head. He whispered a quiet “thank you” into my ear and it was so genuine. He then looked at me earnestly and said “I’m not quite there yet, but you’ll know it when I am”. And I was completely happy with that. I didn’t feel insecure, anxious, concerned, or worried. It was important to me that I said it because I felt it and because I couldn’t NOT say it any longer. I had no requirement or expectation for it to be returned at that time and I had vowed not to say it again until he did because he now knew how I felt and I didn’t want to burden him or pressure him by saying it again and again before he was ready. And so I didn’t. 2 months later, I received a knock on my door. I opened it to find a note under a rock and a trail of clues to our favorite spot. It was sunset. I found him there beneath a tree and amongst the golden straw grass with a picnic. He told me then how he felt I returned the sentiment for the second time. It was perfect. I was 25 then I think. I share the above because if you handle it the way my former boyfriend handled it - if you’re not quite there yet either, then he is unlikely to feel hurt or rejected and simply happy to have shared it with you.

I agree with the above - line all your ducks up before moving out, otherwise the move is premature and makes things unnecessarily complicated. I know, at your age, there feels like a real urgency to do something, but bide your time until you have things sorted out, then you'll be able to move a lot more seamlessly to the next stage of your life and it will be a much less anxious and trepidatious process.

^ I second this.

If you are someone who operates with integrity within a relationship, you don’t just up and leave it so casually with the click of your fingers because you “caught feelings” for someone else like they’re floating down a river and you think “oh, hey, feelings! Let me catch a couple!” A mature, responsible adult who has integrity can recognise if they are experiencing interest in someone other than their partner and is able to view it as an issue that threatens the health and well-being of said relationship. They then actively take steps, with their partner, to address and repair the issue with earnestness as that is the commitment you make when you enter into a serious relationship. If, after attempting to repair the relationship, they are unsuccessful, they should then end it. What you have done in your situation is not protected your relationship or even attempted to work through challenges with your girlfriend before deciding to toss it away for a 16 year old you really don’t know. This, to me, is a huge red flag, and I would not feel safe or confident in your feelings for me if I were your girlfriend. I think, at this stage, you are not emotionally mature enough or responsible enough to be in a serious relationship, which is the only kind of relationship one can endeavour to have when considering navigating long-distance partnerships, otherwise such relationships will never survive. I think you should end your relationship with your girlfriend because you do not love her, and do not pursue a relationship with the 16-year-old because you (and she) are not mature enough to be in one together. Also, regarding the legalities of a relationship - double check the laws where you are because it may be legal for two minors to engage in a sexual relationship after the age of 16, but a legal adult, such as you are, with a legal minor, such as she is, is not allowed in many regions and may be considered statutory r*** regardless of both parties having consented to the activity.