Batya33

So - my friend on her FB posts lovely artwork and she posted something and I immediately thought of what you shared -check it out - it's such a lovely painting and you will see what I mean: "The lady with the yellow umbrella" artist is Alfred Kohn.

Yes -I think people have a need for friends on a broad range - and marital status may or may not effect that. The man in question seems to want to have friends outside his marriage ... or it could be he "wants" her and is going about it under the guise of "friendship" -when I have met a married man especially without his wife around (at work, or in the last couple of years at playgrounds or playrooms with our kids there but only dad was there not mom) I default (this is when I was single too) to being careful to keep things appropriate. Most often the married man defaults to that too so it's no biggie, never ever an issue. OP many years ago when I was single a married man I'd become friendly with and noticed very shortly before this happened -that he was starting to be flirtatious with me- came to my office late in the evening and asked if I wanted to go out for a drink. I said no. We'd gone out for a slice of pizza several weeks earlier during the workday -that's it. He came around to my side of the desk, said "ok then goodnight" leaned over and kissed my cheek and left. I FROZE. And I am not the freezer type at all. I just was in shock. I called my boyfriend. He thought about it and said that if it ever happened again to call security. I sought outside legal advice from a lawyer friend. She said - in our society - just see if you can do self help since you don't work with him directly before going to HR. Next time he came to my office again (shortly after -no contact in between) and he started approaching to kiss me goodnight. I stammered (again I was not myself -I don't stammer!) - "that's not appropriate". He said "because of work or the marriage?" I stammered back "both." He left. He got fired a week or so later for physically threatening a female supervisor. So, the end. What I'm telling you OP is that these things can quickly go south. I was blindsided. I'd distanced myself after the flirtatious voicemail he left me but he sought me out. It's so very hard to assert yourself in that situation (well it was -shockingly hard! -for me). We were friends. I noticed he was an attractive looking man. I noticed -that's all -I'm not blind. I didn't flirt, I didn't do a darn thing and I was 100% into my boyfriend. And yet it took this turn quickly. Beware.

Me too - that's true for all humans - I think enjoying what you wrote shows that the individuals are people who care about getting to know people as people. I didn't like the strong implication that a man who can relate other than as a sex object is more highly evolved by comparison than other men.

This is what she wrote about men. It concerns me when these sorts of assumptions are made about men as a gender. I don't think it shows a man is evolved because I think certain individuals view other individuals primarily as sexual objects and to imply that a man who doesn't is more "evolved" than "men" concerns me. That is how I read it, Catfeeder but obviously they are typed words. To the OP -it sounds like the man in question truly wants to get to know you and doesn't view you as a sex object. The problem is since his comments are those one would expect to be reserved for his wife - if you play along they may quickly lead down a path of playing with fire.

I think marriage and kids are only big dividers in friendships that weren't that close to begin with and where there's a lack of flexibility in compromising over new schedules and priorities. My friends started getting married and having kids around 17 years before I did. For my close friends we stayed close and that often involved me traveling to see them in their new home in the suburbs and working around sleep schedules, activities. For acquaintances if our common interests were work-focused or city- focused and they'd moved away from both -well, sure it faded a lot. When I became a mom I focused on friendships -not mom friends -and had less time/flexibility. One very close friend saw me in my 9th month for lunch -she gave me the name of her house cleaner as I was desperate at that point -couldn't bend much etc - she said she would help after (she was single/no kids but an involved Aunt!) - I asked her for no help like that -she offered. After the birth I invited her and others with an evite for a baby-related event -around two weeks after -no response from her at all. I followed up with a personal email (calling was almost impossible with my newborn) -no response. We became FB friends and private messaged years later -I didn't bring up the MIA and we were never close again - no clue what led to change of heart given our last, close meeting that ended with hugs. We'd been close for about 7 years at that point. I was hurt. I can tell from what she posts she probably assumed I'd be all about motherhood and fade out so she did it first. She was dead wrong and would have been generalizing. I had other friends who balked at meeting for lunch instead of dinner, or criticized me for not finding a sitter for my toddler so we could go out for dinner instead of ordering in so I could meet her new boyfriend, other friends who knew I was bringing my active toddler to a restaurant for lunch and were very late so that I couldn't stay long after they arrived late, etc. It takes accommodating and compromise and the friend might not get a whole afternoon to go to a ball game child-free etc but if you're close you do your best. I did in the 17 years before I had kids and a number of my friends have done the same. It doesn't have to change a close friendship or the connection.

But now you're an adult and there's a limited shelf life to the using childhood as an excuse/blaming parents. I'd say of course with exceptions like abuse where there was no therapy, no outside help, in the aftermath. Says someone who faced significant challenges related to my upbringing. Like Wiseman wrote -and I will add -you don't have to date anyone. Not either of them -or anyone -so it's not a decision with consequences other than you won't be seeing them- or one of them -anymore - you're not married to either or the father of the child and it's not one of those decisions you have to make or you miss out on a once in a lifetime opportunity because it's obvious that neither is really "the one".

I don't think most people crave opposite sex friendships -they crave friendships -people who want to have friends -not everyone does. It's hard to make and keep close friends and it of course increases the chances when gender is not an outright obstacle. I do think in certain cases opposite gender friendships add a great deal to life experiences BUT I'd be wary of anyone who "craved" a friendship just because the person was the opposite gender -that would be very odd to say the least. I never did. My husband never did. We've each always had close friends of both genders our whole lives. Still do.

I would breathe and wait and see. I don't see where you have to make this decision now especially at this pivotal point in his marriage and impending fatherhood. Why the urgency? Pregnant ladies are notorious for being hormonal and needy and acting strange sometimes. I remember freaking out when I was 8 months pregnant and at a UPS store to get passport photos since I'd changed to my married name. A man near me carelessly dropped a box on my foot -a customer - it wasn't a true accident - it was him being oblivious to me standing where I was. Because I was pregnant, balance not great -I got very upset and upset that he was clueless/didn't apologize. Of course he didn't get why a pregnant woman might not want to injure her foot or risk falling and of course I am sure wrote me off as hysterical/overemotional. Look -she is pregnant in a small home with her new husband. She never should have agreed to an overnight guest and instead agreed but was rude about hosting - the whole couch thing etc. Doctor's appointments do get moved around -I was so out of it I showed up for my 11 week ultrasound on the wrong day, cried to the receptionist, begging her to find a way to fit me in and she did with a caring look that told me I wasn't the first flaky pregnant lady. Typically that never happens to me! It's a crazy time, at least it was for me. Give it time.

Good for you! You should feel so proud of yourself.

I think it's really healthy to have more than one person in your life to share personal stuff with and inside jokes etc whatever gender. I think having close personal friendships makes each spouse a better partner for so many reasons. And since it's hard to find close friends especially at certain stages of life gender is not an issue. It's only an issue if the friend is not supportive of the marriage/committed relationship and/or if there is a strong attraction where there's too much risk of playing with fire and/or the opposite gender people do date-like activities etc that give the appearance of impropriety. It's sad to me to discount an entire gender as potential friends just because people take vows not to date/have sex outside of marriage (or are committed as partners and promise each other the same). It's also an issue if the married couple- as in Cherlyn's case -agree that opposite gender close friends is not ok. That is for each individual couple to decide (and I say that even though to me it means sacrificing so much potential connection, life long friendships, lifelong closeness - but for an old school couple I can see where the sacrifice is totally worth it!) This married couple seems to allow opposite gender platonic friendships. The problem is that the married person seems to be veering too much to potential boundary crossing/playing with fire an I suspect the OP is confused because if they were both single she would want to date him -there's a vibe here on both sides that isn't platonic and the issue is that the married person is starting to act on it -it's fine to have an attraction that the people never act on and it's not strong enough to be an issue -I suspect this interaction is veering too much into dangerous territory.

He didn't reach out in any meaningful way -it was a lame text - if he wanted to reach out in a way that was caring and meaningful he'd have called you -yes, even though you are secret -he would have found a way -he would have expressed to you that he misses you so much and loves you so much and he is hoping you'll agree to meet with him so he can tell you in person how he feels and what he wants for the future with you. He'd have made sure if you agreed it was at a good time for you. I wouldn't interact with him.

I think I remember Laura from Runway!! Loved that show

Everyone does. I don’t think it’s fear of upsetting people - because if you feared that you’d never have dated the mom even though you found her so attractive- you’d have wanted to prevent her or her child getting attached to you - I think you fear either being alone or giving up a hot looking woman even though you’re not the right person to accept that she is a package deal as the band Rush said. If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.

When my husband and I dated at work - we were both single - we thought we were being 100% discreet and we didn’t work together. Back then no cell phones. So when I called him more than once to his office and his secretary answered we assume she figured it out and spread the news. It was fine - we were discreet at work and spoke by phone from our offices - but the automatic assumption was that we were dating and not just friends.

Was going to make the same comment.

I wouldn't have the friendships I have if I had this view of men. I don't think it shows anything other than one individual connects with another as friends. I treat men and women as individuals. Some men and women act in superficial ways or treat other individuals as sex objects and those people and I likely wouldn't connect as friends if this was their attitude to any significant extent. I don't think being good friends requires a person to evolve. I wouldn't want a friendship where the person had to "evolve" to be my friend. I have a son. He's 13 - I hope he never encounters people he has to deal with on any real basis who make that sort of assumption of how he regards women. It's simply not true or fair. Certainly developing a friendship and maintaining requires effort and work at times and increased maturity and personal growth -but evolving as a gender - assuming males are typically that shallow in how they regard women? Never ever felt that way and I would hate for any of my male friends to think I thought so poorly of their entire gender. To each her own of course! I do help one of my male friends with gift ideas for his wife. That is because I happen to be good at creative gift ideas generally and he knows that! I suggested for one anniversary they do cooking classes together and they loved it! I respect your view of men and your view of male friendships - people have all sorts of generalized opinions on gender and other groups -I get it. Just makes me sad.

Seems obvious to me unless you enjoy the attention/have feelings for him then it might be harder to have that perspective. I've always had successful platonic male friendships since I was a little girl -so like over50 years now. Including while I've been married/committed the last 17 years.

Do you wonder whether labeling yourself so set in stone is a self-fulfilling prophecy? Certainly like I wrote some people prefer a routine for exercise, others do not, still others get tons of exercise just from daily living activities like if they commute on their own two feet which I mostly did for 15 years. I'm glad you enjoy being out and seeing stuff! My son and I like people watching on our walk across the park to his new school -he decided he'd bet that he'd see at least one more jogger within 60 seconds. We counted 5 like an "I spy" game. Also love seeing different birds, etc. So as a routineless person you have no routine of when you typically eat or sleep? If you met someone who had routines -some or a lot -would that be an issue for you? I know of people who live more impulsively, spontaneously - especially if their work is creative -some writers I know have a set routine, others simply cannot. I do not interact with people who subject me to their lack of routine if it means being late or flaking on a plan. I'm fine if they want to keep it tentative because they do not like routines or if it's a group plan. If the former, I often make other plans and don't wait around. My husband doesn't love to be on a schedule --- but if it suits him he does- meaning he schedules time to watch the sports game, he works late into the night and sleeps in -as opposed to being a morning person -that's a schedule that suits him so I know he might not "like" to be on a schedule (which many parents like us have to be on to some exent) but he does like it when it suits him. Do you like routines when it suits you -meaning if you got tickets to a concert would you have a routine in place to get there in time or would you stick to being routineless and if you missed the first song, etc that's ok -you're being you? Again it's not "wrong" to be routineless for yourself -I just wonder if your broad statement is actually true for you in your real life. Most adults I know are not routineless. Maybe you do know a lot who are!

I think it's weirdly bizarre that he bought baby shoes - yes if he had his from when he was a baby and mentioned that, then sure. Also wanting to have kids is only partly about wanting a baby. Newsflash they grow fast and newsflash it's at least an 18 year responsibility give or take, right? So all that cutesie stuff is pretty irrelevant. It's whether you want to be a parent - it's a weighty and also joyous, life changing, so rewarding and so darn hard!! - job, long term job. It's like a woman who bakes cookies for a man on the second date to show "see I love to bake -if you choose me you'll get fresh baked cookies in your brown bag lunch when I send you off to the office every day with a kiss!!" (Yes it's fine to bake on the second date -talking about motives). I think he never really wanted kids in the actual sense and/or he changed his mind about being with you. Don't waste another second on him. I never dated or kept dating a man who said he didn't want kids or was ambivalent - and I learned that ASAP. I never dated a man who said he did and then changed his mind. Not saying people can't change their mind -at all -this guy's change of heart doesn't smell right.

She had a choice to use contraception before. Contraception can fail. For me personally an abortion or morning after would not have been a choice in that situation most likely (never been in that situation or even close - had scares but where we both were ok if it meant having a baby -we'd discussed it before having sex) - - technically a choice? Sure - just like you have a choice to have a vasectomy if you felt there was a chance you'd want to have casual sex with someone you just met. Not a choice for a woman who is not comfortable aborting. Some ways - there are always some ways and some unfairness when it comes to this biological reality. You can feel it is forced on you and feelings aren't facts. In the sex ed book my 13 year old son and I read it discussed alllllll the forms of contraception plus abstinence, plus the morning after/abortion options and made absolutely sure to make it very clear that every act of intercourse can start the creation of a baby. (I mean menopause/sterility aside). Absolutely clear. The chapters on this were really long and detailed and the authors were very very adept at coming back to that fact. It was very clear that they didn't want the readers -male or female -to believe that it was forced on them if the female chose to continue a pregnancy. It's not fair but it's biology. This book is meant for 11 and up - for teenagers. I know why you feel that way -I get it - and no you don't get a say in whether a woman you willingly have sex with chooses to keep a pregnancy -I'm sure there are rare exceptions and you know they do not apply here. I'm sorry. What is being forced on you is her trying to force you to pay for specific sorts of tests, etc. I'd communicate only if she reaches out first and honestly I'd communicate only with or through someone else -whether a friend, a lawyer, whoever - keep a paper trail -watch your back with her. I don't like how she's pressuring you and how she's pressuring you -like I wrote above. She doesn't get to pressure or harass you in this context -not with what has happened/not happened at this point. IMHO.

I didn't write that -I didn't say it was proven, or that there are so many medicinal benefits (have no idea how many) simply shared what I'd heard. Have no idea if it has been proven - no opinion either way on the scientific aspects or what's been done or not done in the studies/analyses. I know of friends and family members who found it helpful for chemotherapy/cancer and maybe one other anecdote about a different medicinal benefit for pain. I am happy for those people that they found a way to alleviate the pain in those tragic situations. Back to the OP - I don't -- and would feel uncomfortable if someone chose to be impaired during work using any substance especially if we were working together on a project and especially if it had a time sensitive deadline. I gave an example above -and that was just a hangover (not sure if the alcohol effects last -I've never experienced one).

I'm really not interested in discussing it in this format -sorry! You of course have asked a question many have and many will continue to I'm sure. Also I've never tried pot, never will, do not want my son to try it if I have a choice or any illegal drug (never tried any illegal drug) and I've never been drunk. So from a personal perspective -well, I have nothing to contribute. Not interested in getting into a discussion on my values about illegal drugs and recreational use of marijuana, etc. But you've posted your question, it seems to be off topic although I certainly went off topic - and maybe others want to discuss!

To me getting drunk while working is not acceptable. Drinking to excess where you put your life or others at risk (like DUI, etc) is not acceptable at all. I don't find that socially acceptable at all. In certain places -I can't say which -just don't know - it is totally acceptable to smoke pot - either for recreation and/or medicinal purposes. I personally love that marijuana is supposed to help people going through chemo (meaning I am not a medical person -I know of people who smoke while going through chemo -or ingest it - or some such and it helps them and that's wonderful!). Many years ago I had to work on a Sunday and a junior person was assigned to come in and help me. She was assigned in advance. She chose to get drunk the night before and party all night. She arrived at work hungover. I didn't know this -I thought she was sick and asked if she was ok so she told me she was hungover. The wor required intense attention to detail and focus and we were under deadline. I thought it was completely UNACCEPTABLE that she knew she had to work all day on this project and chose to drink so much the night before that she was hungover. She wasn't drunk of course but -same thing - drinking alcohol to the extent it impairs your ability to function at work.

I agree with everything you wrote except that if you are the father this baby was not forced on you. You chose to have sex and risk starting a pregnancy and potentially bringing your child into the world. It's just how it works. You don't get to choose under what circumstances you will be a father once you choose to have sex. I also agree you can choose to walk away and wash your hands of this situation unless she takes legal action.

I think it's ok if his wife is ok with it. I have always had close friendships with men -platonic - since teenage years. Marriage didn't change that -moving away kind of did and getting busy with family, raising a child, etc. I was close with a male classmate in grad school. We were good friends for 7 years by the time he got married -and he met his future wife when we'd known each other for 5 years. I like his wife and don't consider her more than a friendly acquaintance - but when her husband was in a car accident around 15 years ago -I was one of the first friends she called for help -logistical help - getting something faxed to the hospital, etc. So obviously she trusted me and knew I'd be a reliable friend in her time of need. We used to talk on the phone often and we used to meet for lunch once a month or so when we lived/worked in the same city and sometimes dinner. We also got together with his wife, we also double dated. A couple of years ago my son and I met him for lunch during the work day -his wife was at work and it was totally fine of course. She would have been invited of course! It's tricky - he did want to date me when he first met me. I didn't want to date him. I did think about potentially dating him on and off during our friendship -only when we were both single. Never ever acted on it. I give you these details because there are so many individual factors -what the couple considers appropriate boundaries and your feelings for him -whether you want more factors in too. I would err on the side of keeping things appropriate and being mindful of not texting anything you wouldn't want his wife to see. Good luck -you seem to have very honorable intentions.