AllTheMoonLong

In spite of all the pain and sadness and grief you're going through, it's good that you have at least more of the truth out on the table. It doesn't seem like it now, I know, but like Carl Rogers wrote "Facts are your friends". That is bitter and cold comfort, but holding onto the truth of what you've admitted to yourself, and to us by writing here will be important as you steer a course out of what feels like a trap. You're no longer ignoring warning signals and no longer putting up with her games, and you can be proud of that. I was thinking about how, when you hear the safety speech at the beginning of an airplane trip they tell you to put your OWN oxygen mask on first before attempting to help others. I think that's going to be crucial now, for you. Get whatever help you need, be that from family, friends, chat forums, counsellors, pastors, therapists, or whomever. Then, you can work on liberating yourself from this anguish, taking good care of your children through what must be inexplicably painful for them, and getting on with your life. I'm wishing you well as you change your life for the better...

I think it's healthy that you're asking those questions, or as you put it, wrestling with those demons. And I think it's mature of you to ask some questions about yourself as well as him, ie what drew you to this kind of relationship, and what keeps you in it. It takes courage to put all of this out into the ether of cyberspace and wonder what will come back to you. Reading back over this thread I see you've gotten the objective feedback you asked for, and some much-deserved support, too. I'm going to take a risk and go a step further with what I wrote before. I was sitting here musing about The Bell Jar -- it's been ages since I read Plath's novel -- her poems speak more clearly to me -- but I was thinking of that image of Esther in the fig tree, starving because she could not decide which fig to choose. She's smart and pretty and can have any one she wants, but the choice...any choice, would (to her) imply the loss of the others. I think that image stayed with me because it speaks so vividly to my own life -- I can (and have) been paralyzed by possibility. In my own case, the decision to leave my marriage was the longest and most painful of my life, because I didn't want to abandon the possibility that it could be restored. And I didn't want to be "the bad guy" by leaving. But I knew that I was starving. Anyway, I didn't have an affair, but I considered it a few times when the opportunity was there for the taking. Probably I was just afraid of making my life even more impossibly complicated. Maybe I was scared of being found out. In my more noble moments, (ha!) I knew I wanted my next relationship to be just about me and the other person, each on our own two feet, each single before being paired. Maybe that's wishful thinking, since everyone comes with baggage -- be it past lovers or marriages. The part of me that wanted an affair was the part that wanted passion, and wanted closeness again and wanted a shared world of the mind/body and (here's the hard part) DIDN'T WANT to make a final decision about my marriage. In other words, for me, having a secret relationship was a way of keeping open the possibility that my marriage MIGHT be saved and also keeping open the possibility that I might leave it for someone who was more exciting and energizing and alive. But not just yet... It was me, in the fig tree, paralyzed by not being able to decide. I'm sitting here wondering if I should delete the paragraph above. It is painful to see the childish side of myself that wants it all, and likewise to write about it to a relative stranger. But I feel like perhaps I understand something about the sort of struggle and doubts you face from a different angle. So here you go, and I thought also that I would offer a wish, for what it's worth -- I hope that you take care of yourself by making a choice. You deserve a non-clandestine relationship with someone, either this guy or someone else out there. I don't mean to go all psychological jargony about it, but integrating our lives into a whole -- one transparent reality, without hiding things and the fear behind it, is the path forward. It's the one I'm stumbling ahead on, I hope. So, if you wish, please write more about what you are thinking, and what you are hoping for. I can't speak for anyone else on this forum but I suspect there are a lot of us out there/here that are rooting for you as you wrestle with these tough questions!

I'll add my $.02 for what it's worth... I'm a guy who went through a divorce -- amicable split, no kids, no infidelity; kind of a color-by-numbers sort of process. Even that simply, even when we had decided to stay friends, even then, it ran me through the wringer emotionally. Divorce is a huge strain, and that without the issues that are complicating this one. I know, I know, every person is different, but I think you need to consider the fact that he may be leaning on you instead of standing on his own two feet after his marriage. That's where my concern originates -- If I were you I would want to be sure that he really loves me (you), and really wants a relationship... This means being public, changing jobs if necessary to do it, being a couple, being together, and the whole enchilada... Not behind closed doors only. I'm not going to get on my soapbox about rebound relationships, nor do I want to trivialize the attraction that has kept you with him so long. My point is that you owe it to yourself to make sure that he is not using you to escape a bad situation with his previous marriage. I think it's hard to say if his leaving a bad marriage is a sign that he might one day leave you, and frankly there are too many if's in that hypothesis to make the answer meaningful. Instead, I think the question might better be "How do he-and-I now build a solid relationship that is about US being a couple and not us being an affair?" That seems like the real concern going forward, at least from what I gathered from your posting. It sounds like on the minus side you have this "shared surreptitious history" and the remaining baggage from his divorce (no matter what he says, it's there, guaranteed). And, perhaps, there might be some things that you've pushed under the rug in order to keep a clandestine relationship going that need to be aired now too. On the plus side, I would expect you have chemistry with each other, a shared work world, and the fact that he HAS started making a change to be with you. I suspect it won't be easy, so it's good that you're weighing the choices carefully. Wishing you the best...

I agree on this being a red flag... I think jealousy like you're describing is stifling and even a little scary -- I don't know what it's like for YOU when he gets "extremely mad" but I think it's important to listen to your gut feelings on this, and act on them. If you decide not to pursue things further with this guy, be aware that you may see some of the anger behind that jealousy directed toward you, since putting some distance in the relationship may be seen by him as a kind of betrayal -- the same way he sees your conversations with other guys as betrayal. My point is that you should be smart and be prepared for that. (personal note on this topic -- I had an ex-gf whose previous bf stalked her for years after they had broke up -- he was horribly jealous and well, just horrible in general. This creep threatened me personally, and even worse, her...)

I'm new here, and frankly I had been a little discouraged at the level of maturity of a lot of the discussions -- they felt a bit like those horrible Cosmo covers, you know: "Seven Signs Your Guy Wants to Kiss", and "How to Tell if HE Likes You!". Then, I read your eloquent, heartfelt post, and I'm so glad I joined. It's obvious that you are grieving, both for the loss of the connection that you had with Peter and also, what may be harder, for the loss of the possibility of more. I thought it was a telling phrase, when he said "To break the dream." I think there is something sadly self-destructive about that, and about (as you said) the fact that he started to turn on you, and be angry with you, and stiff and distant. We could speculate all day about what's behind his contradictory "Come close, come closer... Go away, go (far) away!" behavior, but the truth is that you are the one who has been vulnerable, and courageous in standing up for yourself by saying (in words and deeds) "I am not going to let you hurt me again." I love the image of Cupid and Psyche on your signature -- seeing it reminded me of being in front of that sculpture in the Louvre last year, and watching couples walk by it. It was interesting that for the couples I saw who were obviously "paired", I remember that the women looked longest, and the guys moved ahead sometimes or stayed behind. I was ending a relationship at the time, and found that it was hard also for me to look at such a tender, soft, and dreamy sculpture when I was so sad. I think it takes strength to be tender, and frankly it doesn't sound like he has that strength, or the willingness to be tender and connected and close to you. (Forgive the cheesy metaphor, but...) He looks for a second or two, feels uncomfortable, and moves away, stiff and distant. Meanwhile, you're grieving not just the actual loss, but the loss of all the tenderness that young romance is supposed to have... That is sad, but I think the longing for beauty, and intimacy that you have is a sign of strength, as is your willingness to write about what you're feeling now. I'm wishing you well for the New Year, and urging you to appreciate the strength you have -- even though you are much younger than Peter, I think you are much wiser.

I don't know about him, but it sounds like for YOU the answer is "yeah". We don't know what HE feels or wants, right? - He may just want to flirt, and keep you waiting for the next hug or caress or whatever. - He may be scared behind his "popular guy" bravado and secretly longing for a relationship with you. - He may be into someone else, and just keeping you warm on the back burner as a backup... - He may not know WHAT he wants. Who knows? My point is -- I think you should make a choice based on YOUR feelings. One option is to enjoy the fluttery, flirty feelings for what they are, and play the game back with him. Get some guy at church to talk with other than him. Be too busy to spend hours messaging with him, or talk to someone else. Flirt back, and make it a game. Think less about HIM and more about what you have to offer -- it's cliche, but there ARE lots of guys out there. The second option (which I think is better, by the way, at least in the long run) is to be direct with him. No more games, no more differences in your public and private behavior with the guy, no more hint-hint-nudge-nudge-wink-wink. Be strong enough to say what you want, and (even tougher) be strong enough to hear his answer. If he says "no" or "just friends" or whatever, at least you'll know, right? And you'll respect yourself for being courageous. And (secretly) I bet he'll respect you more too. OK, end of sermon. (No collection plate though... just best wishes for you to get over this hurdle!)

Here's my take on this... I think it's tempting to generalize (eg: girls send mixed messages, blondes have more fun, etc) but I know just as many guys who play the field as women. In other words, I think both men and women have fear of being rejected, misunderstood, and both/either (you choose) alone forever, or smothered in a relationship. The useful conversation, instead, seems to me to be along the lines of what corvidae is saying: "How do we avoid playing games with each other?" No "hard to get" -- everything up front and clear. Here's an example: I was interested in a woman I know from dance class -- we did stuff together "as friends" we spent time together, and I found that whenever she needed something done at her apartment, or felt lonely, she would call. I really cared about her, and so I would respond. She would act totally like she wanted a relationship, sending all the signals we've discussed. Then, once we had done what she wanted (gone to the opera, or fixed her sink, or whatever) radio silence. It sucked -- but I kept at it because I didn't have the courage to just ask "what do you REALLY want?" or say what I really wanted. Why? She's afraid of a relationship, and (she says) "didn't want to hurt my feelings by saying that all she wanted was to be friends" and I was afraid of NOT having a relationship. So we played the game instead. I sent mixed messages too -- ie, "be more than a friend to me" and "sure, we can do just as friends" because I didn't want to face the truth. Instead I was always trying to decode the signs of her behavior, instead of just asking her. It went on for agonizing months. Face it, rejection hurts, and so we do all kinds of idiotic things to avoid that pain. It feels like that third grade "do you like me? check yes or no" note-passing game. Sure, flirting is fun. Sure, having things in that delicious, exciting, sexy state of limbo for a while is great. But life is too short to do what I did... until the pain of "not knowing" got larger than the anticipated pain of rejection I was stuck. I'm new to this forum, and a lot of what I am reading of it seems to be folks bouncing back and forth in that does-he/she-or-doesn't-he/she agony. That's a painful game. I know... I played too many of them... OK, off my soapbox and back to your regularly scheduled discussions....

Hi -- This sounds like what you were discussing on another thread: link removed ... I replied there in detail and will just add another thing or two here, FWIW. It sounds to me like this guy is no dummy -- he wants you to like him, and he likes keeping you guessing. Like I said in the earlier thread, I think flirty people sometimes do that to mask their OWN anxieties about dating... Face it, we ALL get anxious about the does-she/he-or-doesn't-she/he-like-me dilemma, and not to mention the do-I-want-TO-LOVE-or-merely-to-BE-LOVED paradox, and some of us (like me) over analyze things to death and worry about it, and some folks (like, perhaps, this guy) keep lots of folks panting for more. So, my cheap, dimestore advice is to either ( a ) enjoy flirting for what it is, and not try to push things further, but instead see this as "skill development" for a shy person, where you tease him back and have fun doing it, or ( b ) make things clear with him, in person that you want to know how he feels and if you guys should be more than friends, or ( c ) if the other two options seem too difficult, then disconnect entirely -- be unavailable... no texting, you're too busy and too smart and too hot and never ever ever waiting on his beck and call. The worst thing is to be agonizing over it like you are... my granddaddy (bless his heart) used to say "Never mudwrestle with a pig -- it gets you both dirty, and the pig loves it!" Good luck!

Hmmmm.... I'm brand new to this forum, but I've been in the same boat before: as a guy who has several close women friends and also as a guy wondering about where things are going next... So, here are my thoughts, from both sides of the fence... if the advice doesn't work, I guarantee you a full refund First, I think it's great that he puts you at ease, and wants to connect with you online and flirt. Enjoy it for what it is, and let the "not knowing" part of it add to the suspense and mystery. See it as a chance to flirt back, and enjoy the tingly excitement of it all -- I think your goal should be to enjoy yourself in the moment, and (as a shy person) build up some confidence. That confidence will help you flirt back, and tease him back, and see if then he starts to pursue you, or not. If he does, great. If not, you learned something for next time. That sounds cavalier, I know, but as a shy/sensitive person I have started to learn that there's something to be said for (literally) "caring less". It's even harder if (as I suspect) you are an imaginative person too -- it's easy to mentally overinvest too soon, and I know, I've got the sad scars to prove it. I have friends who've gone through 3 relationships in the time it would take me to ask someone I really liked out... and so my skills around that (flirting, reading body language, etc) were atrophying while I was trying to figure out "where things stood". One last thing -- I've read several of the threads on this forum before joining, and it looks like a lot of them are about trying to figure out what the other person is or isn't thinking. It's SO human of us to wonder, and hang back and read tea leaves because of the anxiety of dating. And (my theory, FWIW) I think the "flirters" out there like Mr. Nice-but-Noncomittal have the same anxieties -- they just shield themselves from it by making sure that they stay popular, and keep a stable of admirers handy. By "caring less" I think we free ourselves to flop, and fall, and sputter, and stop, and eventually, fly.... At least, I hope so! Good luck...