Dating Question - Who Pays?

[33yeargirl]

I can appreciate everyone's comments...i just have one thing to say to DN - DN, read my post again, the guy i met out saturday night....DID NOT EVEN LEAVE THE BARTENDER A TIP - this type of behavior is just embarrassing, class less and CHEAP! I am just glad i didn't know the bartender personally. I, on the other hand left a $3 tip. He leaves nothing? No class

[DN]

You can call me a cheapwad if you like - but I am not the one demanding that someone else pay for my entertainment, drinks and food.

 

It may interest you to know that I have been married for thirty years. When I was dating my wife I paid for everything - literally everything. She was on a working holiday in England and could barely make rent. But it was also the norm back then that men pay. Since then we have had at least a generation of women demanding and getting equality. Equal pay for the same job. With that equality comes responsibility to pay your own way in life.

 

Many men I know, including myself, pull our weight in the household, and I have known over the years many women who do not. I cook, clean, and do all the traditional 'man's job's'. My wife and I share the work and share the responsibility. We pool our money - we consider our earnings as belonging to the family. It's called equality.

 

I have two daughters in their mid-twenties, one of them married with two children. They are both smart, educated and intelligent. They are also independent. They can support themselves, live by themselves if they have to and they can pay their own way through life. Because that is the way they were brought up - not to be dependent on anyone for money, not to take advantage of another persons generosity.

 

And they were also taught to not tolerate disadvantages nor expect advantages for being women.

 

They can and do compete in a man's world. both of them work in a field traditionally dominated by men - and they do their jobs well. They expect and receive respect for their work and they get paid the same -as they should. But when they have finished their work and taken home the same pay as the men they work with, they don't expect to be able to put that money in a savings account because a man is picking up the tab for their entertainment.

[teacup]

what are you doing giving advice in the dating forum if all ur dating was 30+ years ago?

 

that doesnt make sense.

 

and btw, i dont think u would have got ur wife if you hadn't paid. you are giving advice based on something that you didnt do yourself? how does that make sense?

[ShySoul]

Girls want to be shown respect and class. They want to know that someone cares about them and is willing to show them a good time. They want to feel special and treated well. Paying for the date demonstrates these things. It is a way of saying to the girl, "I really like you and will do anything to make you happy." Thus the gentlemanly thing to do is for the guy to pay.

 

However, girls must also be reasonable about this. Guys are not made of money. In some cases the girl may be in a better position to pay. It doesn't mean he doesn't care about her or that he is cheap. It may simple be that his financial situation isn't the most stable at the moment. Instead, as a friend just said to me, "but I believe the way a guy treats a girl and not what he does with money is what means more." If the guy is treating you well in every other aspect, money should be overlooked for who the person is.

 

And the easy way around this situation is to plan cheap but romantic dates. What really counts on a date? The location or how much it costs? Or who you are with and the time spent together? You will be amazed at the sweet, romantic things you can do with a little imagination, the right attitude, and the right partner. A round of mini golf with the loser having do complete a dare of the winners choosing is cheap but still fun. Picnic on the beach, romantic. You can do anything you want and still make it a fun and romantic time, while being kind to the wallet.

[DN]

what are you doing giving advice in the dating forum if all ur dating was 30+ years ago?

 

that doesnt make sense.

 

and btw, i dont think u would have got ur wife if you hadn't paid. you are giving advice based on something that you didnt do yourself? how does that make sense?

 

Because times have changed from thirty years ago. What was the norm then does not have to be the norm now. Back then men paid because there were inequalities and it was deemed reasonable to do that, now many men are questioning why they should have to pay for an evening out when the woman they are with earns as much or more than they do.

 

And just because I dated thirty years ago doesn't mean that my memory or intellect completely failed me.

[melrich]

what are you doing giving advice in the dating forum if all ur dating was 30+ years ago?

 

that doesnt make sense.

 

and btw, i dont think u would have got ur wife if you hadn't paid. you are giving advice based on something that you didnt do yourself? how does that make sense?

 

Part of what eNotalone is about is sharing our similar experiences. You can choose which advice you wish to listen too and which you choose to ignore but do not question someone's right or qualifications to give advice.

 

For what it's worth, some of the conventions may have changed but the essential dynamics between men and women have changed little over time.

[DN]

For what it's worth, some of the conventions may have changed but the essential dynamics between men and women have changed little over time.

 

 

I know what you mean but it's not really true. Look at arranged marriages, bridal dowry arrangements etc. A study of ancient celtic marriages is interesting. Both partners had to bring goods and chattels into the marriage. And, if there were a divorce they took them away again. The woman was responsible for all dairy products so would own the milk cattle, chickens etc, while the man would own the agricultural equipment. You could divorce for bad breath but not for adultery - that required a fine payable from the partner who committed adultery to the other partner.

 

It is only comparatively recently in human history that 'dating' as we know it came into existence, mostly in the twentieth century.

 

The fact is that for most of human history people were expected to pull their weight - an interdependency.

[BillyJean714]

I can appreciate everyone's comments...i just have one thing to say to DN - DN, read my post again, the guy i met out saturday night....DID NOT EVEN LEAVE THE BARTENDER A TIP - this type of behavior is just embarrassing, class less and CHEAP! I am just glad i didn't know the bartender personally. I, on the other hand left a $3 tip. He leaves nothing? No class

Complete TURNOFF!

 

If I were there, I'd feel REALLY guilty and tip the server myself. How can someone be so cheap? I can NEVER understand people like this!

 

I CANNOT stand CHEAP people, period!! Guy or girl- it DOESN'T matter. I associate cheapness with uptightness. Fine, if we can save a few bucks here and there, why not? I like simple dates that aren't too extravagant, and I'm a bargain shopper. However, when it comes to someone NOT tipping people like waiters and waitresses, that bugs me and tells me a lot about a person's character. If someone's going to be cheap and not tip a waiter/waitress, they're just plain STINGY. I don't like stingy people. I would hope that they can be a bit more empathic towards others.

 

If someone's going to be cheap, think about how they'll be like in the long-run. When I mean cheap, I'm not talking about a person who's looking for bargain deals, I'm talking about someone who would rather take than give. Someone who leeches and DOESN'T feel guilty. TEACUP made a few great points on generosity! When it comes to relationships, everything is all about reciprocity. It doesn't mean that just because a man treats a woman out on the first few dates that she won't give back. She eventually WILL, as she naturally wants to do it from her heart anyways. What's the big deal here?

 

Obviously, we all have our own preferences. I'm the type of person who prefers someone who's going to be a gentleman on our formal dates, rather than a guy who's going to sit there and whine about how much he resents the thought of chivaly. I prefer someone who's warm/welcoming, rather than someone who's going to sit there on our first date and bite my head off by complaining (thank goodness I never had that experience, LoL). If a person I'm dating is cool and laid back, then I realize that this is the type of person who I would like to get to know more and give back to, as well. Tha's just my preference. There's nothing wrong with that.

[novaseeker]

What I don't understand, and frankly find troubling, is this idea that women like men to be financial caretakers ... because that is essentiallly what is happening when men are being evaluated, in part, by their willingness and ability to relieve women of the need to spend (and by implication, to earn) their own money.

 

This is just really 100% contradictory to gender equality. To me, it reeks of having to do with 'social etiquette' around dating that developed in the 1950s and earlier, when women did not have the money to pay anything because they did not work and/or did not earn anything comparable to what men did. Perpetuating this practice under the current economic circumstances really goes against the grain of relationship equality between men and women because it sets up at the very beginning the foundation that the man is financially responsible for the relationship.

 

Oh yes, many men like that ... and that's the problem. It perpetuates the comfortable male model (you can call it 'chivalry' if you like, but that's often used as a code word for inequal power relationships between men and women) of being in control financially ... or at least gives men the illusion that they are.

 

Where has feminism gone? Are there no feminist ideas about dating etiquette that have any relevance, or do women believe that feminism is simply about getting equal pay, but when it comes to actual relationships between men and women, it's back to the 1950's model? And we are then surprised that men, later in relationships, try to exercise power in an unequal fashion ... when we taught them that this inequality was okay at the very beginning of the relationship??

 

It's a serious issue, because today what we have seen is a tremendous success for a few generations of women gaining access to educational and professional opportunities, but it seems more or less the case that in terms of interpersonal relationships much remains stuck in an older model ... perhaps, as suggested at least by the posts here, because the young women want it that way.

 

When I met my ex-wife in the mid 90s, I paid for everything at first because I was making 6 times her salary and she had barely enough money to live on. She hated that, and still wanted to pay because she is an extremely intelligent, educated and independent woman. She now earns more money than I do, which is great, but she would never dream of expecting a date to pay for her date ... in fact, she would be both offended by it (particularly the implied message that she wants or needs to be 'taken care of' financially) and offput by it (and again particularly the message that the man seeks to be in control financially). She's just as flummoxed as I am about the expectations of some younger women these days (and she is not 'old' ... she's in her mid 30s).

 

Maureen Dowd just published a book on this phenomenon (the failure of feminism in terms of interpersonal relationships) entitled "Are Men Necessary?". The summary she published of it in The New York Times indicates it may be interesting reading relating to issues precisely such as this.

[Beec]

"If you don't ever "invest in the relationship," she will get the impression that you never will, and find herself someone who she feels is willing to. She needs to know that you value her and appreciate a certain quality of life that she can at the very least feel comfortable with.

 

I agree, but there is a limit. If we have been out to dinner a few times, and she has not grabbed any check, she is probably not getting asked back out.

 

There's no this for that calculation. There should not be. But if she has some resources, then she should also invest in the relationship. If she is not willing to do so, then she has told me how much she thinks of me.

 

Guys, make the initial investments. But if you are five dates into it and she has not made an investment, consider it unlikely that she will.

[teacup]

heh. times change. it means his dating experience is from 30 years ago. and plus it's an experience and advice that he didnt do himself. how credible is that?

 

it doesnt mean he didnt have an experience. but the credibility and believability is certainly shot.

 

and yes.....even by not being out there dating, you forget what it's like. and the advice he is throwing is not practical. it hasnt been tested. 30+ years ago...and married since?

 

give me a break. i rather listen to ppl who are still dating and going through it right now.

 

all the philosophical mumbo jumbo and history of women's equality thing is just lame. how does that compare with practical genuine dating experiences? sure, there's theories about what's right and wrong but what matters is actually being out there doing it. hey, just look at communism. sheesh.

 

just take some pretty selfrespecting woman to dinner, go out and try to stiff her. see if you get a second date or if you can see her interest level dropping like a fly.

[teacup]

I agree, but there is a limit. If we have been out to dinner a few times, and she has not grabbed any check, she is probably not getting asked back out.

 

There's no this for that calculation. There should not be. But if she has some resources, then she should also invest in the relationship. If she is not willing to do so, then she has told me how much she thinks of me.

 

Guys, make the initial investments. But if you are five dates into it and she has not made an investment, consider it unlikely that she will.

 

i would save that for when they get into relationship mode. i think the splitting bill in half thing might be acceptable later on in a relationship but when it's just casual dating, it's very early on, and the two are just getting to know each other...the guy runs a huge risk of making himself look really bad and totally loserish if he pulls this kind of stunt.

 

god, i think he's such loser and so rude and inconsiderate.

[novaseeker]

 

all the philosophical mumbo jumbo and history of women's equality thing is just lame.

 

Indeed. One of Maureen Dowd's main points is that your generation of women is totally disinterested in gender politics. Everything changes over time, you're correct, but I just find it fascinating that some of the things I've read from her are being reflected right here in this forum. From my perspective, it's pretty interesting seeing how contrasting this attitude is from the attitude of women 2 generations ahead of you ... it's just a very interesting contrast, and it makes me think that in some areas the men have won the battle against feminism.

 

just take some pretty selfrespecting woman to dinner, go out and try to stiff her. see if you get a second date or if you can see her interest level dropping like a fly.

 

Indeed, with certain women of a certain age this does appear to be the case. Again, Maureen Dowd discussed this at length in her article.

 

I'm not debating your preferences ... you're entitled to want to have the guy pay for everything if that's what makes you happy. Go for it. You'll certainly find many men who are more than happy to oblige!

[teacup]

woohoo! thanks novaseeker. that's what i wanted to hear.

[PocoDiablo]

You know what blows me away? Here some guy takes a woman on a date and she gets a $3 beer or coffee or whatever. Okay, THREE DOLLARS and he won't pay for it? No tip? What is that all about? Ladies, if I were you I would have picked up the drink and went and sat down with some other single guy!

 

The whole point of a first date, of course, is to get to know the other person. And by doing so, you have to have some standards. Me, personally? If I invite you out on a date, you better believe I am paying your way. Now if I don't want to spend a ton of money, I'll take you to Starbucks or a comfy little bar. Drinks are cheap, it's time time together that is valuable. If I wanted to spend money, I'd take you to Carlyle Grand.

 

What's a good reason to NOT pay? ... Well, one chick I went ona date with a whileback brought her boyfriend (that was a surprise, she never told me!) to our "date"! I mean, come on!!! (No, I did not see her after that.) Another woman told me, in response to "Do you live around here?", something like "Oh, yeah, I live in my boyfriends mom's basement." Yeah, I wrapped it up and left in about 2 minutes. Why would I pay for another mans GF?

[DN]

Don't forget that every time you test a guy - you too are being tested. You look at it as being stiffed - but he is the one expected to pay. Perhaps he feels he is being stiffed by a woman who, although perfectly able to pay her own way, expects to have the right to a free meal and entertainment.

 

You can insult me all you want and mock my thoughts on this issue. But the fact remains that you still want someone to spend money on you and the chances are that a guy who sees you doing that will be bright enough to think that he could end up subsidizing you throughout any relationship you have with him and possibly beyond.

 

And it seems you still don't get my point - what was true thirty years ago should not hold true today in these times of women's equality.

 

The thing that troubles me the most about this attitude is that there is a sense of entitlement. The implication being "I am a woman and he is a man and thereforeeee I am entitled to have him spend his money on me".

 

And the outrage against anyone who dare suggest this is now outdated and manifestly unfair has just been demonstrated.

[RayKay]

Okay, well I am female, and here are MY personal thoughts on this issue.

 

If I do the asking, I should pay.

 

If he does the asking, I would prefer he pay, I will always OFFER to pay part, or for drinks, or for dessert for example, but if he rejects and pays, then I give him bonus points.

 

As we do more dates, I think you should if you are both in the financial situation too, trade off paying....or pick cheaper dates!

 

Once you are in a serious relationship, I again think it should be a treat each OTHER deal or splitting the cost.

 

On my first date with my boyfriend, we went to play pool and have some drinks. He had brought a bit of cash to pay but we had SUCH a fantastic evening and spent a lot of time together that we went over the intended budget but almost double! So we split the cost so neither of us would be stuck there washing dishes (besides we wanted to spend more time together!). I did NOT see that as cheap, or him "stiffing" me or a sign of "things to come". We are still together, and still treat each other both with financial and other things. I am going back to school next year, won't have extra income other then what I get from loans and working in the summer so will be poor student, and we live together so have those expenses, but he is willing to help support me while I go back to school and has been the main motivator in encouraging me to go for it - now would I have been right then if on that first date I determined he was "cheap" for not being able to cover our great first date? I certainly don't feel ENTITLED to his support, in fact I feel quite bad about it, but he is WILLING to do it, not because he is pressured by me due to some sense of "entitlement" on my behalf.

 

Bottom line is, you are both adults and individuals. You are both able to communicate and talk about what you expect and don't expect. If you find you are not compatible in your beliefs in this area, and can't compromise...go the other way! I think EXPECTING the man to pay is often just ridiculous depending on the circumstances...him offering is one thing, expecting him to is another...in this day and age when women are just as independent as men, able to make their own money, have power over their own decisions and lives....it's just not the same anymore.

[annie24]

definitely - I agree with RayKay. If I ask, I expect us to split the bill. Even if he asks me, I always bring some money, and reach for the check, but I also give "bonus points" if he swats my hand away.

 

He might have simply "forgotten" to pay for your coffee. It's possible that he was so nervous it just slipped his mind. Or, maybe he just believes in things being 50-50.

 

As a grown woman, I don't expect someone to pay for me. I'm not a child anymore. Now, if he wants to treat me, then that's nice.

[annie24]

Furthermore, I don't think it's ladylike to expect a man to pay. A lady doesn't walk around with a sense of entitlement because she has breasts and a vagina. A lady is gracious about it when a guy doesn't pay for her. And if he does pay for her, she says 'thanks' and smiles at the guy.

 

Most men I know will gladly pay for a lady, but the second she starts acting like she deserves to be paid for simply because she was born a female, and he has to pay for her because he's a male, well - it turns them off. A sense of entitlement is not attractive at all.

[teacup]

i will listen to other females opinions but only if i think they are smart, shrewd and in control.

 

here you are advising females to bargain away all their power.

 

i advise any female who read the above to immediately discard that advice.

 

it is important to demand more, men will respect you more than if you're just giving them what they want. if you put ur foot down and say, here is what i want, now what can you offer me, the men may not like it or enjoy it, but they will respect you more. that you know what u want and you dont want to settle for less.

 

if ur just sooooo willing to pay, sure they will take as much as you will give, but i dont believe it gives you an edge what so ever. you've just handed it over lock, stock, and barrel. that is just foolish.

[novaseeker]

i will listen to other females opinions but only if i think they are smart, shrewd and in control.

 

here you are advising females to bargain away all their power.

 

Huh? How is this bargaining away power? Are you referring to the power of attraction to separate men from their money? In other words, you're giving the men 'what they want' (ie, agreeing to spend time with them, to go on dates with them, etc.) in exchange for their implied agreement to spend their money on you? And you see that as empowering for women?

 

Wow!

[RayKay]

What!?!? How is that bargaining away power?

 

I have power and control over my own finances, my own choices, how is NOT falling into the traditional roles, and having respect for BOTH of our financial situations, giving away "power"..and what the heck would I be "bargaining" for? How is choosing to pay giving them what they want?

 

How is making a choice to pay, advising women to give away their POWER? What POWER is this - the power to "control" men, to feel entitled simply as you were born with different genitalia?

 

I do not settle for less than I deserve - but for me that does not apply to being cheap myself and expecting a man, no matter what HIS financial situation, to fork over cash for me.

 

Sorry, I don't buy it. My boyfriend respects me because I AM an individual and I AM independent.

 

It's fine if you have the feelings you do...but just because others disagree does not in any way mean they are not intelligent, not in control, and not beautiful, amazing women - and there are many men out there whom WILL indeed respect them for their views, beliefs and respect for the other persons situation...and not feel entitled simply because they have a vagina. Sorry, but I find that attitude of entitlement entirely disempowering.

[teacup]

you dont know what im talking about. i can tell.

 

i wasnt talking about seperating men from their money.

[annie24]

Funny coincidence - a guy asked me out and we went on our first date last night - we met at Starbuck's. He got there before I did, so I went to get my own coffee and paid for it myself. He didn't offer to get me coffee or pay for it. I was more annoyed, however, at standing in line by myself waiting for the coffee.

 

Bargaining power? What was I supposed to do, stick out my hand, ask him to give me $2.50 from his wallet? Is that supposed to empower me? I think that would have been really rude of me to say something like, 'Oh - aren't you going to pay?'

 

Well, I got my coffee, sat down, and we had a nice 2 hour conversation. He told me he had a good time and asked me out again. Now, it's my decision if I'd like to go out with him again. How have I given away my bargaining power?

[teacup]

im not going to explain. u dont get the point.