Dating Question - Who Pays?

[CATLOVER]

Hi everyone,

 

Just want to see what others have to say on this topic. I have dated a fair bit over the years and I am maybe of the old school in that if I go for a coffee or drink with a new male aquaintance the male pays. I know men will feel this unfair...but to me its not about the money its about the male/female dynamic.....If I go for a coffee (and ok its like 2.50) and a guy just lobs up pays for his own and waits for me...I dont feel very special and I also feel like he is saying im not willing to share what I have.

I just went on a coffee date and the guy rushed up to the counter ordered his own drink paid for it and rushed to sit down. So I ordered mine and payed and went and joined him but I have to say Ive never had that happen before...and have no idea what to think. Ive always had the man offer to pay or in alot of cases flat out refuse that I would pay.....sometimes a guy has paid and then if we are enjoying ourselves I will pay for the next drink. So its not that I am not willing to contribute.....I am more than happy.....but I would think he would at least order the drink and then split the bill. Oh I dont know...he is a bit younger so maybe the rules changed or something......Guys give me some views and let me know whats happening on your dates and what you think on the subject.

[Stari]

There was a lengthy discussion on going dutch some months ago.

 

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[sweetheart230]

If its an intial meeting, and its coffee, I usually pay for my own. If he asks me out for anything other than coffee however (a drink, dinner, movies, or any other activity) he always pays. The issue has never come up if its considered a date.

[acuraman]

Everyone will have thier own opinion on this topic. I like to pay for the ladies when I go out with them because im old fashioned I guess. If the ladies refuse and wants to pay for us, Im not going to argue with them because its tacky. I will just pick up the tab the next time Im with them.

[Rainz]

I have some old school traditonal values like you Catlover, and totally feel and understand where you're coming from. Like you I've dated quite a bit, I too like to see the man pay.

I've heard many opinions on this, there are some who feel it's unfair. I'm attracted to gentlemanly types who have traditional ideals when it comes to dating and relationships.

The odd occasion where I've done the "going dutch" thing it had made me feel like I'm selling myself short. It makes me feel like the guy is not maing an effort and doesn't like to share what he has. I have offered to pay or split bills and guys have generally refused.

[CATLOVER]

Yes thats how I feel exactly...this...whatever it was that happened this arvo just felt dead wrong.....This guy has straight out told me he is interested...so if thats the case then.....Im definitely at a loss......I underdtand guys might think and feel why should they have to pay....well I dont think they understand when a man looks after you its the way to feel if there is any romantic chemistry.....for me thats a part of it....I cant help it......What happened this arvo just makes me think ...this guy doesnt think Im worth the 3.00 for a coffee........

[Rainz]

I understand what you're saying. I've just accepted that for me, if it's one of those things that isn't happening at the start, then when is it going to happen? I think they're either that way or they're not. If they're not that way then I just consider it as one of those things that would make us incompatible.

Cheapness and meaness is so off putting it's untrue, I listen to stories form some of my friends and they tell me how embarrassing it is. I remember going to a pizza restaurant witht his guy and instead of ordering pizza's that each of us wanted, he ordered one pizza with half of what he wanted and half of what I wanted.....I was so embarrased, I though how cheap can you get?

A friend of mine he's thing is that everything has to be 50/50 dutch all the way, he's not interested in any woman who doesn't work with that.

[novaseeker]

It's all messy nowadays.

 

Used to be 1950s rules applied: the guy paid for everything.

 

Then we had a phase of going dutch during the heyday of feminism.

 

And now it's just more ambiguous ... many women have reverted to the 'guy pays' model, but more strident, feminist men and women still like the splitting the bill thing. It's an ambiguity that goes to the core of current men/women relationships: equality vs. 'man takes care of woman' ... and everyone sees these things differently. Personally, I don't see how expecting the man to take care of you when it comes to dating is consistent with having a fully equal relationship, but I'm well aware that many women disagree with that, and see it simply as a way to gauge male interest .... still isn't it odd that a male's interest should be judged on the basis of how willing he is to relieve the woman of her need to spend money? To me, that's awfully close to evaluating a man on the basis of his potential as a 'caretaker', in a subtle way, and that seems to me to be a big step backward from some of the inter-gender progress that was made during the past 30-40 years.

 

But that's just me.

[DN]

The problem I have is with women who want to jump back and forth between traditional and non-traditional roles as it suits their convenience and pocket-book. It is taking unfair advantage because either the man looks like a cheapskate or he ends up paying for a woman who is perfectly capable of paying her own freight.

 

Don't forget though, that for every man who looks cheap, there is a woman who looks like a gold-digger.

[darkblue]

Oh dear. This topic has come up time and time again.

Disguised as different things: "chivalry", "going dutch" etc.

 

I think, if it is a coffee, and I am interested in the girl (I.e. a 'date'), I will pay.

Similiarly, if I took her out for a meal.

 

If the woman tried to pay and felt it necessary to pay - I would split the bill with her.

I have found that woman who like to 'pay their way' cannot argue with the fact that splitting the bill is equality

[darkblue]

Don't forget though, that for every man who looks cheap, there is a woman who looks like a gold-digger.

 

Precisely.

[CATLOVER]

Yeh I can understand everyone has there own feelings on this.

 

And I still hold firm that I would prefer a man to cover the bill for a coffee the first time....the next time I would offer to get it.

 

The thing is the guy I had a coffee date with today almost ran to the counter ordered his coffee....The lady looked at me and at him and said anything else and he just went nup...paid his money and almost ran over to a table and left me standing there. I was rather mortified to tell the truth and embarrased......it was just plain rude in my book and to me is a red flag of what would come later.

 

Na...I just cant get past this one Im afraid.

[Mjane]

As a rule of thumb, guys pay in the first few dates. And a lot of guys want to do this. In 99 per cent of the cases, the guy picks up the check, I reach for my wallet and he says, I'll get it. And I say, thanks a lot... blah blah blah.

My offer to pay my half is genuine. But it makes it feel special, makes him appear sweet and kind when he wants to pay.

[teacup]

i think the guy should pay especially in the very beginning stages. this is the part where he is showing the girl how sincere, kind, considerate he is and how much he wants her and likes her and respects her. if he feels all these things then the cost of a meal or drink shouldn't be something that he is so calculating about. he should show her how much of a gentleman he can be and what he is offering.

 

if later on the bill becomes split, especially if he cannot afford it, then that is an issue later on. but i think in the beginning it is very important. if at the beginning he is already being a cheapskate then how good is it going to get? he didnt have to pay in the beginning and he certainly wont want to when he has her more hooked.

 

i see the refusal to pay as a very serious and scary thing. i am by nature a generous person who doesnt quibble much about money, when i am around cheap ppl i feel very uptight and uncomfortable and calculating too.

 

with cheap men it's hard to be a generous person because if you are too generous, they just take and dont give back and you end up feeling like you sold yourself short. but if you become as calculating and "fair" as them, then you have to stamp out your own considerate and more relaxed nature and that's just as uncomfortable.

 

i hate cheap ppl. i think they have a very wrong attitude about money. an atittude that makes it hard to enjoy life.

[Jjasonn28]

I think in todays world, Chivalry has somewhat been lost. (On the younger generations anyhow). I personally am a stubborn man. I always want to pay. I dont know why, but the only time she paid for a dinner, it was because she was more stubborn than I that night. We never split bills. Its one way or another.

 

But dont take the fact that he didn't offer a sign of disrespect. Especially if he is of a young generation. In todays world, it doesn't matter who pays the bill, as long as it gets paid.

 

jp

[teacup]

anyone who has read my post:

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should also read this:

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the article explains clearly why women hate cheapwads. and why cheapwads shouldnt get dates. the bastards. god i totally hate men who count their pennies in front of me and YES it does make me think they will be cheap and skimp on affection and emotion as well.

 

"If you don't ever "invest in the relationship," she will get the impression that you never will, and find herself someone who she feels is willing to. She needs to know that you value her and appreciate a certain quality of life that she can at the very least feel comfortable with.

 

Furthermore, she will eventually think that you must be cheap with your emotions as well, and begin to tell herself that you are probably incapable of ever letting go and truly loving her, which is a sure-fire recipe for a breakup."

 

 

either way cheap people make life miserable.

 

here's another one:

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great article. written by a man too. but he GETS IT.

 

another thing, actions speak louder than words. if a guy keeps telling me he really likes me but is unwilling to buy me a 10 dollar dinner, then i will think he is lying because his words dont match his actions. and actions are more important. that's just logical.

[DN]

Actually, I think it is manipulative to say that if a man is not generous with his money he will not be generous with his emotions. First, what evidence is there of that other than anecdotal by women who want men to spend money on them and, second, why does the same principle not apply to women?

 

By the same logic; is not a woman who demands that a man spend his money on her more likely to be more interested in a man's monetary assets than his emotional assets anyway?

[teacup]

you can argue it however you want. but that is just how women think.

 

you know there are some things about men that i dont get, like why they would want to sleep with a pretty girl even if they dont know her. im told that's how men are.

 

well, seriously, that is how women think about men and money. i know i do.

 

and you can argue it. but it doesnt change the way women are.

 

personally, i think if a guy likes me a lot, he's going to be willing to spend more on me because he will think im worth it. money is a big deal with people and he is willing to let go of that big deal because he really likes me, then i think....wow, he must value me more than money.

 

and if he's very cheap then im left thinking, he doesnt think im worth the 5 bucks for a cup of coffee, he must not like me very much if he's being so calculating in his mind. my happiness and pleasing me must not be so important to him.

 

and then if he pulls this really really early on in dates, i think he's being so stingy in this area, what other areas is he going to be stingy in? if he doesnt like giving up money then will he also give up attention and make compromises to meet my needs too? and since ppl are usually on their best behavior really early on, i start thinking, is this the best it's going to get? will he be counting every dollar when we go out, is this what the future is like?

 

and then the guys who just take the girls out, open their doors, pay easily and smooth, offer the girl drinks and dessert, and dont even mention money or are generous suddenly seem really great in comparison. because you have to remember you're also up against the competition. if im really attracted to you but you only want to take me to the cheapest place, then i go out with someone who is also attractive but who is sweet and takes me somewhere nice, who do you think will start to look more and more attractive in my eyes?

 

this is all very logical to me.

 

i think if a guy wants to be cheap and not pay that's fine. but he should be prepared to lose her to someone else who is more giving or he should be prepared for her to feel turned off and disgusted by his attitude.

 

really great girls, the ones who are smart, pretty, fun, sexy...they dont have to settle for someone tightfisted there are great guys who are also generous who will ask them out. so also be prepared to not be able to pick from the top.

 

personally with myself, this guy that im really attracted to...his attitude about money is disturbing to me. i ask myself why i need to settle for him treating me like this when i can get better. and i can be treated better....why shouldn't i? why should i be treated like im not valuable or worthy enough compared to some pieces of green paper?

[Rainz]

Teacup,

 

I totally agree with you, echo my sentiments exactly.

[darkblue]

you can argue it however you want. but that is just how women think.

 

Do you speak on behalf of all women?

[33yeargirl]

I just had this happen Saturday night. I went on a blind date - when i walked up to the bar he had a drink in front of him. I sat down and we started talking .....etc. The bartender came up to me and asked what I would like - I ordered a beer ($3 total cost) ....the drink came and the guy made no effort to pay ...so i took my wallet out and paid - he didn't even mention anything of it....i could care less about the money - I make over 70,000 per year...but to be honest it doesn't show any class is my take on it. I am on a date not a business meeting/not with a friend - it is a terrible first impression. After the drink we went for a slice of pizza next door....the total bill was $6. As we cashed out he made no reach for his wallet...i took out a $5 and put it in front of him (which in itself was awkward...he took it, put in the remaining $1.50) and left it at that. That was the final straw considering that when we left the bar - on top of not buying me a drink he didn't even leave the bartender a tip (I left 3$) now, this to me says CHEAP/NO CLASS/and NO second date.

[DN]

Would somebody please explain why it is that when women want equality and demand to be treated the same as men, that some women also demand that men pay their way, or at least more than their share?

 

What is it about being a woman that lets them think that they deserve to be monetarily subsidised by men?

 

Do they expect their women friends to pay for their share of the evening's expenses when they go out together?

 

Saying 'that's just how it is' begs the question. Some men said the same thing when women asked why they should not be allowed to vote. But that changed - and so can this unfair expectation.

[33yeargirl]

it's not that we demand that anyone "pay our way" but if you are on a date...i don't think it's an unrealistic assumption that the guy you are meeting should buy the first round of drinks....you make reference to "do your friends buy for you when you meet them out...." obviously no,....but the emails have centered around the "date" scenario .......My thoughts are that on the first date the guy should pay....it's not about the money - most girls including myself are not hurting for money....but it's about class and respect of a guy and dating etiquette.

[DN]

My thoughts are that on the first date the guy should pay....it's not about the money - most girls including myself are not hurting for money....but it's about class and respect of a guy and dating etiquette.

 

A man has to show his respect for a woman, and that he has class by spending money on her when she is not hurting for money. And this is called dating etiquette. But it could also be called taking advantage of an outdated concept that contradicts the whole idea of equality of the sexes.

 

I have yet to hear a reason why - I hear a lot of 'should' but no 'why'. What is the reason for the so called etiquette? Is there an imperative that he should pay? Other than women thinking he should.

[teacup]

look, i said that if you are one of those cheapwads then that is your decision. but be prepared to:

 

1. lose women to more generous guys - who are going to show you up and make you look bad.

2. not be able to pick from the prettiest, smartest, nicest girls - who are used to better treatment and dont have to put up with what you offer because they have better offers coming their way all the time

3. have women be turned off by your attitude - because it makes you look bad and lack of generosity is not an attractive trait

 

as for the whys:

 

1. women look at how much you are willing to spend as a measure of how much you value them. how much you believe they are worth. if he thinks im worth more, he will be willing to spend more. im sure you would spend more on a girl you find very pretty than a girl you find ugly.

2. consideration - it's nice when a guy is considerate and offers you a drink, offers you dessert, offers you something to make you more comfortable and relaxed. if he's not willing to spend money, he wont be offering and he wont be considerate. i had someone discourage me from ordering. he was eating and i was sitting there sipping my water. i thought he was so rude. he didnt even care about how i might be feeling, all he cared about was himself and his stomach.

3. read that article i posted. it's pretty accurate about the WHYS.

4. how willing a guy is to pay - also shows his overall attitude towards finances. women can sense a guy's attitude towards money based on something like this and it's important if they want a future together. if you are seeking something long-term, finances are going to be a part of life. if he is like Harold the husband from Joy Luck Club, then life will be miserable hell. (pay attention during that part in the movie).

5. chivalry and gentleman notions - it's still a big part of society, you can disagree but like i said, be prepared to lose girls.

 

i dont speak for ALL women per say. but i am telling you what a LOT of women believe. especially intelligent attractive women. i cant tell you what stupid women think. or women who dont respect themselves think. or women who dont attract guys think. but i do believe that a lot of smart, educated, attractive, selfrespecting women will think this way.

 

as for the equality thing. there is no such thing as equality. that is not a good term for it. women simply sought rights that they didnt have but which were naturally given to men. women sought more empowerment, the right to vote, to own property, to be an individual and entity separate from their husbands, the right to have sex and not be judged, the right to abortion and to be in control of their bodies. are any of these rights so unreasonable? and if men are naturally given these, women simply believe that as human beings they should also have these rights. i think you can view it as less of a gender thing but more of a human thing. why were a whole category of human beings denied these rights just because they happened to be female?

 

women now work harder than they have ever worked. before women just stayed home and cared for the babies. now they not only work but they also cook, clean, do laundry and come home to the kids.

 

the role for men has stayed the same. they go to their jobs and come home.

 

i hear young women like me fret all the time about how to juggle a career and also be a mother and caretaker. i dont think i've heard men worry about how they are going to hold down a job and be a father.

 

in light of this and the fact that men still make more than women (check up statistics) why do some men have such a big problem with paying?? i would think they simply cant admit their cheap.

 

and let me tell you cheapness is an undesirable trait in both men and women.