Dating Question - Who Pays?

[RandomAdvisor]

In my view, a guy should be chivalrous at the beginning of the relationship, but once things get serious, it should be more half and half. These money matters can have major implications for the future.

 

Hypothetically it's not such a bad idea. But that assumes that the relationship is going to work out. What happens if it's just the first date and things go sour? The guy has to try his luck and roll the dice again on another date with another woman - and pay again.

 

You got it right for the money matters having implications for the future. Aren't financial difficulties one of the number one reasons for divorce?

[Shajenko]

Personally, I wonder why so many are so strongly against this. What harm does it actually do? For the guys, why can't you spare some dollars to try and show a person a good time?

 

Those dollars add up. Say you go on a few dozen dates. Let's say you go someplace fairly cheap and only pay say $10 a person for a meal. Along with the money you'd spend on yourself, which is probably more than you'd spend on a meal if you stayed home and ate, you get to treat somebody who is a near stranger, who is probably not even going to be appreciative of it - they'll just expect it, and possibly demand it.

 

If you go on dozens and dozens of first dates, you're spending quite a bit of cash on women you'll never see again, and they get free meals instead. It can make men pretty resentful, especially when the women are making as much or even more money than yourself.

 

Now, if you're claiming that men who don't make much money don't deserve to date, then just say you're judging men based on their income and wealth in which case you can be properly labelled a gold digger. Otherwise, I'd suggest you rethink your criteria.

 

Shajenko, that was uncalled for. Teacup did not deserve to be critized like that. EVERYONE is a valuable person.

 

Not to me. My family is valuable to me. People I care about are valuable to me. Strangers and aquaintences are not.

 

They may be wonderful human beings, but I don't know that, and I can't know that from very little interaction with them.

 

It may sound harsh to you, but it's true. I'd be willing to bet that people you've never met before and who you will never interact with simply don't matter too much to you, beyond the little amount they matter simply by virtue of being human. I'd also bet you wouldn't trust them with anything serious, because they might not deserve it.

 

This is simply human. You're not going to make big sacrifices for random people. You won't give up your job to make sure somebody in the third world has a job. Doing so would be foolish.

 

Similarly, I'm not willing to sacrifice for random women I meet.

 

What are you going to do, be suspicious of everyone you meet and be expecting them to earn your respect?

 

It's only sensible. Anyone I meet could be a thief, or even a murderer. It's why it's not considered wise to pick up hitchhikers.

[Shajenko]

When I think serious chivalry and a man pursueing a woman to show her how special she is, I'm thinking of victorian times in the 1800's. Aww....so romantic, right?

When I think of the 1800's, I think of company towns, sweatshops, no worker rights, etc. That's how most people lived, rather than the upper classes who lived such a "proper" existence. Either that or they lived in the Wild West, where manners and proper hygiene were rare.

 

Anyway, before maybe 20 or so years ago, men paid and women didn't for very practical reasons - either the man had to pay for everything, or there was no date because the woman couldn't afford it.

[darkblue]

In the 1800's - most women were looked at as home-making, children-producing, food-cooking lonely little creatures; who did not really deserve anything better.

 

But then came equality.

Demands were called for equal education, equal jobs, equal pay, equal rights, etc. - as men.

 

Women succeeded in overthrowing the 'man's world' - to be sitting here now expected men to be paying for meals.

Where is the equality?

Are you saying it is tradition? - because I could argue that tradition says, in that case, get out of 'men jobs' or stop receiving 'a man's pay' etc.

 

We are now in the age of equality - expect to be viewed and treated, equally

[teacup]

that equality thing is just a way for men to turn things on women.

 

there is no such thing as equality.

 

did anyone read my post a couple of pages ago?

 

i dont see equal rights, equal education, equal mumbo jumbo. this world isnt equal. the women's rights movement was about giving women rights that should be given to adult human beings. plus women do twice the amount of work they used to. instead of staying at home and caring for the kids, they now do that and have careers. should we be getting treated double then?

 

seriously. where are the chivalrous gentleman? no wonder a girl cant find a knight in shining armor. im just going to have to settle for his white horse.

[darkblue]

Unbelievable.

Yes there are chivalrous men. I am one of them - however, I now call it 'common courtesy' because women do have equal rights. And I do not want to be seen as to be trying to take the rights women rightfully own, away from them.

 

Not all women both, care for children - and work. I know plenty of families who are equally in charge of taking care of children, and working.

 

Well teacup - would you be happy with a man who treats you chivalrously? Paying your bills, taking care of you - while you watch over the children, knit, darn, cook, clean, etc.?

 

Or do you just want the man to treat you good - but you can do whatever you want anyway?

 

Are you really standing up for old fashioned chivalry and women being treated well - or are you trying to compensate for bad previous relationships?

[annie24]

To me, the bottom line is that a man doesn't HAVE to pay for a woman. But then again, she doesn't HAVE to continue seeing him either. If you're the type of woman that wants to be wined and dined, then ditch the cheapskate and find yourself a man that will wine and dine. Clearly, Sheyda has found a really good guy who treats her well. I suspect that he treats her so well because she seems to appreciate his kindness. I think if she was demanding he pay, he wouldn't be so eager to get the bill. Anyways, Sheyda - I'm glad you found this awesome guy. You're an awesome woman and totally deserve it!

 

We all have our "personal triggers" or whatever. Things that turn us on or turn us off. I had a crush on one guy in my class for a while. He'd often sit behind me in class. But, I noticed that the entire time, he'd be talking to his friend, or he would put his head down on his desk to sleep. To me, that turned me off from him, because I thought he was being extremely rude to whoever was speaking to the class that day. How hard is it to sit up and pay attention for 50 minutes? And it's not like we're in high school - we're graduate students - we all supposedly want to be there! Now, maybe another girl wouldn't care if her crush is falling asleep in class, but that to me showed that he has little respect for others. This is one of my deal-breakers.

 

If you don't like how you're being treated and what he's doing is setting off alarm bells, find someone new!

[annie24]

And for the equality argument. It's true, there is no real equality yet. But, we are all striving for it. It's like the expression, "You can't have your cake and eat it too." If a woman's going to want equal pay for equal work, and an equal opportunity to join the military, vote, get certain jobs, etc... then, equality in dating is part of the deal also.

 

That said, about 90% of the men I have dated have insisted on picking up the bill in the early stages of dating, even when I tried to reach for my purse. So - they're definitely out there - most men will pay, quite willingly too! If you find yourself with a man that won't pay, and it's important to you, then ditch him!

[darkblue]

This is what I dislike about that view: You are saying that equality is necessary in modern day life.

But if you hold the view that men should pay for bills - don't stand for anything other than a man who will pick up a bill!

 

Somewhat contradictory, don't you think?

[annie24]

This is what I dislike about that view: You are saying that equality is necessary in modern day life.

But if you hold the view that men should pay for bills - don't stand for anything other than a man who will pick up a bill!

 

Somewhat contradictory, don't you think?

 

To me, it's not very contradictory. (Only somewhat contradictory IMO )

 

It's like, if I am an employer, I need to treat all my job applicants equally. However, when I am interviewing for position of "boyfriend" then maybe I have a preference for tall red-headed men (or whatever). I can't really exepect the tall guy with black hair to dye his hair for me, so either need to accept him, or find myself another man. I personally only will date men who are as tall as me, but I prefer taller. That is very important to me, as I am not sexually attracted to shorter men. I can't however, expect the short guy to get surgery for me, to grow taller (and I'm not even sure that's possible!) Especially since there are so many tall men out there, better to move on and meet one of them!

 

But even with the job example, there isn't "true equality." If I run a computer company, and I have a job opening, I may only look at candidates with a degree in computer science. Anyone else, I am not interested in. And that's fine - I think that's fair. People also have certain "must haves" in their potential partners.

 

If a woman has a very strong preference for a man who pays, and our 9 page debate doesn't change her mind, it's pretty clear that the payment issue is simply very important to her. There's more than enough men out there that "fit that bill" (pun intended) There's more than enough single men out there, no need to find the cheapskates and try to change them.

 

There are more than enough women out there also that don't mind if the guy doesn't always pay, so I think it works out eventually for everyone. Like Grandma always said, "There's a lid for every pot "

[darkblue]

Like Grandma always said, "There's a lid for every pot "

 

Uh oh! Can't argue with Grandma!

 

I think this discussion has gone from chivalry to shallowness.

 

(P.S - there is an operation available to implant metal bars which can make a man appear taller; however, I'm already 6 foot )

[annie24]

Well, original topic was posted by CATLOVER who went on a coffee date with a man who didn't pay for her coffee. She wanted to know what was the norm these days.

 

I think the timing of this discussion was very interesting. I haven't had a guy not pay for me on the first date in .... gosh.... years! And then I replied on here that it's ok if a guy don't pay on the first date, and lo and behold - the guy I went out with a few days later didn't pay for my coffee! (I wonder if he knows I am on this forum??? LOL) Well, I saw that as the universe really wanting for me to "put my money where my mouth is" !!! LOL

 

But, I'm glad that I went out with him again anyways, despite my being shocked at buying my on coffee. I had such a great time with him on the 2nd date. I guess it just goes to show that a man that doesn't pay for the woman on a first date won't necessarily be a dud.

[darkblue]

LOL - Precisely, Annie!

Never judge a book by its cover.

I hope things go well with him.

[teacup]

- dont use my past bad relationships to attack my views. i find that a really LOW BLOW on ur part. how do you call yourself chivalrous when you do that?

 

i am not willing to have this discussion with you.

 

NO means NO.

 

btw, shysoul, you are sweet. thanks for "getting" it. you are a gentleman.

[darkblue]

Out of a legnthy post like that - all you got from it was that your past may be the cause of your reasoning?

That's not fair.

 

It was not an attack of your views, teacup. It was trying to make sense of them.

 

I am chivalrous.

I will open doors for women, I will give my jacket to a woman, etc.

[teacup]

you are playing subtle manipulation word games with me.

 

NO. this is not okay.

NO.

NO.

NO.

[darkblue]

I'm sorry if you are taking it that way - it is not my intention, nor my character.

[teacup]

alright then. truce. but i for one dont want to discuss this anymore.

[darkblue]

Very well.

[RandomAdvisor]

And for the equality argument. It's true, there is no real equality yet. But, we are all striving for it. It's like the expression, "You can't have your cake and eat it too." If a woman's going to want equal pay for equal work, and an equal opportunity to join the military, vote, get certain jobs, etc... then, equality in dating is part of the deal also.

 

That said, about 90% of the men I have dated have insisted on picking up the bill in the early stages of dating, even when I tried to reach for my purse. So - they're definitely out there - most men will pay, quite willingly too! If you find yourself with a man that won't pay, and it's important to you, then ditch him!

 

I think that pretty much says it all. It is unrealistic to try and say that everything is completely equal now, they're not. Women still aren't making equal wages to men here in the United States - they really need to add a Constitutional amendment to remedy that. BUT, things have changed a lot in the past half century, and many women do make as much or even more than the guys they date.

 

And for the record, I paid for everything on the first few dates with my current GF, as well as the random dates I went on before that. To this day I continue to pay for the vast majority of our dates.

[teacup]

I think that pretty much says it all. It is unrealistic to try and say that everything is completely equal now, they're not. Women still aren't making equal wages to men here in the United States - they really need to add a Constitutional amendment to remedy that. BUT, things have changed a lot in the past half century, and many women do make as much or even more than the guys they date.

 

And for the record, I paid for everything on the first few dates with my current GF, as well as the random dates I went on before that. To this day I continue to pay for the vast majority of our dates.

 

*applause*

[RandomAdvisor]

When I was younger I was happy to pay for everything because it was simply seen as the right thing to do. As I've grown older though I question a lot of things in our society, and this is one of them. As far as me and my GF now are concerned, it's practical. I have a job and she doesn't, so I pay for everything without thinking twice. If situations were reversed I would expect her to do the same. Or if she was working and making similar wages I'd expect us to split it.

[BillyJean714]

I'm just wondering, for those who truly are for "women's equal rights", if you're really for it, then why don't we see more men who are so adament about this issue, go out and protest in front of corporate buildings? Why aren't you the ones who are willing to walk up to those corporate head haunchos and demand for more equal rights? If that's what you truly stand for, then why aren't you doing that? If they have such a strong opinion that a woman should pay on the first date, then why don't aren't they the ones to go out there and stand up for women?

 

I think that if anyone who complains about chivalry and claims that it's code word for superiority, then go protest, and stand up for what you truly believe in. I think it's just an easy excuse for some people. I think that politeness is something that lots of people lack these days. I'm not a bra-burner. If a guy who I'm dating expects me to give up my values, then it's really this simple- we're just incompatible. There are guys out there who are truly polite and won't complain-they are rare- but they're out there. There are also people who will pay, because they want something in return, but those are easy to spot.

 

I like ShySoul's advice on examining a guy based on how sincere he is. Anyone can pamper us to a nice dinner, but their intentions might not be so sincere. In the end, it's all a matter of preference. Btw, I also like what DoubleJ says on how things should be more equal once a relationship is established. A woman will reciprocate, if she knows her man does things from his heart, without putting a grudge on his face. If he's sincere, she's sincere. If he's going to be resentful, so will she. I've had my fairshare of dating experiences. I've also contributed financially to one of my ex-partners in the past, when I knew he was broke. Don't think that I haven't been in the position where I was more financially capable than my partner. I'm not one to depend on a man for my own financial stablity. I'm not like that, and I'm pretty sure that lots of women these days who aren't like that, either. Some of us just like guys who are truly a gentleman, polite, and not so uptight.

[DN]

If we accept for a moment the claims that women as a gender unfairly earn less than men; it is still not reasonable to expect an individual man to shoulder that burden and continually pay the way for a woman who, individually, may earn the same, or more than he does. There are many inequalities for various groups of people in society, some of them working against men. But to try an address those inequalities by inflicting another injustice or simple unfairness on individuals is equally wrong.

 

When all is said and done, the simple fact remains that for anyone to expect or demand to receive more than they give in a relationship, whether it be money, emotion or anything else, puts the relationship, or potential relationship, out of balance. And correcting that is very difficult.

 

Calling someone a cheapskate because they don't want to be taken advantage of financially, is no different than calling someone a prude because they don't want to 'put out' on the first date.

[RandomAdvisor]

I'm just wondering, for those who truly are for "women's equal rights", if you're really for it, then why don't we see more men who are so adament about this issue, go out and protest in front of corporate buildings? Why aren't you the ones who are willing to walk up to those corporate head haunchos and demand for more equal rights?

 

I don't see very many women who want equal pay for equal work going out and protesting to demand it.