What’s next?

[Capricorn3]

3 hours ago, Whirling D said:

Am I going to toss the relationship out because it isn’t perfect? Not yet. If I feel more evidence of controlling behavior,

^ In all fairness, at this point in time the only controlling behavior we have seen is on your side.

[rainbowsandroses]

Whirling let us know how the call goes. 

[bluecastle]

57 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

it shouldn't be THIS hard for a person with a full time career and a homeowner - describes many many people - to "figure out" whether a person like yourself can "fit in" to her life -she knew the facts about you early on -single dad with joint custody/no full time employment, finances on the meager side, home owner/music/art as a hobby/side hustle, etc. 

Totally agree. 

My caveat is that I can’t tell if it’s this hard for her—if the “fitting in” is an actual dilemma she’s grappling with in a whiplash-inducing manner—or something more stoked by Whirling’s anxiety. 

Like the religion stuff. The way I read it (opening post) is that she said something about religion and his immediate response was, “Are you worried I can’t fit into your life?” Then that (Whirling’s fear from day 1) becomes the nuts and bolts of the talk, and when she considers that idea out loud, rather than dismissing it soothingly, it becomes part of their shared narrative and proof that Whirling’s theory is right. He can’t fit in, not to her life, not in society, and so on…

Maybe I’m wrong, the other theory being that their primary connection is fueled by neurosis: hers, his, each shaded in different hues but familiar in a way that can be initially intoxicating and quickly dizzying. 

Regardless, when it comes to the early days—the first year, say—I think a general ease is a key ingredient. Because it all invariably does get harder, life having sharp elbows and people being complicated, so it’s good to have that foundation of ease to sink back into or have faith in when the winds blow. 

[Jaunty]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:32 PM, rainbowsandroses said:

You're 61, you've been living your entire adult life this way and may not want to change anything.

. 

The OP has been absolutely consistent and clear about this:  He is not  interested in any type of changing. 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

1 minute ago, Jaunty said:

The OP has been absolutely consistent and clear about this:  He is not  interested in any type of changing. 

 

Isn't that what I said in my post you quoted? 😕

[Type O Negative]

You expect someone who's 61 to be oh so dying to change who they are? Come the four letter word on. I wish people on here would stop lecturing the man about how he's doing it all wrong and how he needs to read books, watch videos and change therapists. Oh and go to anger management classes, my personal favourite. My lord, dude's just found someone who's broadly what he's been looking for for years and years,  warts and all. Give him a break people. 

[rainbowsandroses]

1 minute ago, Type O Negative said:

You expect someone who's 61 to be oh so dying to change who they are? Come the four letter word on. I wish people on here would stop lecturing the man about how he's doing it all wrong and how he needs to read books, watch videos and change therapists. Oh and go to anger management classes, my personal favourite. My lord, dude's just found someone who's broadly what he's been looking for for years and years,  warts and all. Give him a break people. 

We are all just voicing our opinions and trying to help in our own way @Type O Negativethat's why threads are created and folks respond.

Same as you.

I'm sorry certain opinions (like mine) irritate you; thankfully Whirling appreciates them, he has told me himself which is all that matters at the end of the day. 

Perhaps you should go for a run like I did 😆 it made me feel much better!

Just a suggestion.

 

[Jaunty]

21 hours ago, Whirling D said:

 

I definitely felt like she was pointing her finger at me as a result of my mistake, and it was pretty clear she wanted me to know it.  

that kind of behavior may be a dealbreaker for me. 

Your mistake of completely disregarding the woman, and also doing the same about your daughter, would be a dealbreaker for a lot of people.  IMO it's very appropriate for you to be held accountable for it.  

It's not just a simple mistake to commit to a vacation plan, forgetting that you had a commitment to your daughter.   And same goes for making a commitment to your daughter and then just scheduling over it.   

The woman is not behaving in a toxic or manipulative way by being angry and letting you know it.  

Adults don't expect other adults to function this way with people who are supposed to be important to them.  You've signalled that neither one of them are very important.  

 

[Type O Negative]

1 minute ago, rainbowsandroses said:

We are all just voicing our opinions and trying to help in our own way @Type O Negativethat's why threads are created and folks respond.

Same as you.

I'm sorry certain opinions (like mine) irritate you; thankfully Whirling appreciates them, he has told me himself which is all that matters at the end of the day. 

Perhaps you should go for a run like I did 😆 it made me feel much better!

Just a suggestion.

 

Yeah. Sure. Love going for a run. 🤦‍♀️ We're very different people, Rainbowsandroses.

Anyway. Can't wait to hear how their call went!

[rainbowsandroses]

1 minute ago, Type O Negative said:

We're very different people, Rainbowsandroses.

Yes we are, thank goodness!  How dull life would be if we were all the same, don't ya think???  😂

Perhaps we should strive to learn from each other versus judging, faulting and criticizing.  

Not pointing at you necessarily just generally speaking.

Anyway, yeah I'm on pins waiting for Whirling to respond, despite some of my posts, I'm really pulling for him that it all works out!!

[Jaunty]

11 hours ago, Whirling D said:

 I’m starting to wonder if I even want to go. There was a lot of negative energy flying around that call last night. Which is so saddening because there was so much positive energy going on right up until that point. It kind of turned on a dime.

 

I truly believe that you need to call her right now, break off this miserable psychological soap opera, block and delete her number and make a vow to yourself to never spend one more moment analyzing her or what went down between the two of you.  

You speak of her with so much disdain and superiority that it's actually hard on my stomach to read it.    No doubt she gets a lot of whiffs of it and that is playing out, as another poster noted above.  

Stop the bleeding before some long term damage is done. 

[itsallgrand]

This thread was a ride to read!

I think overall you aren't giving this lady a fair shot or being all in and at the plate, you are being wishy washy and that makes it super challenging to get to the bones of what you two can potentially have. And she comes across much more sharp edged than you, which probably brings out the wishy washy in you even more and that brings out the sharp in her.

The only way to get past it is to decide one way or another, ok I'm in or out, and then commit. It's not a life commitment, just a commit to bring it all to the table and allow things to shake out as they may. You can't be white knuckling or else you may as well quit now!

Good luck with your call. Don't stress about it. She's attracted to you and knows you aren't her. She probably likes your creativity and different ways, but that doesn't mean she likes unreliability nor does she want to decipher code of exactly how you feel and expect. You have to be upfront, that's how you build trust and common ground!

 

 

 

[Jaunty]

9 hours ago, bluecastle said:

This is the stuff that turns people's brains inside out—or, from your perspective, makes them appear to be on a ledge.

It turns MY brains inside out and I'm not even the one on the receiving end of the controlling, manipulating behavior.

OP:  Whenever you do this (give her "permission" to say or do something that you either want her to do or to hinder her from doing) you are blocking her from being completely free to take her time, cogitate, and come to a place where she is ready to make a decision or a move.  Instead she will be following your advice / lead, or, conversely, defying your suggestion.  So far, you've driven this thing entirely with this trick.

This includes all the times you talk at her for HOURS and then want to do a post mortem on the talk; "how do you think that discussion went?"  In healthy real life relationships - including parent/child, employer/employee, friendship -  the part AFTER the discussion where each person has had their say and it's closed - is very important.  You prevent that part.

I remember about 2,305,530,834 pages ago when you were first "talking" on the dating app when I told you this.  

Also, what is happening now is in part a direct result of your insistence to drive this into SERIOUS RELATIONSHIPVILLE when you two had no idea whether or not you even like one another.

Clearly you think very poorly of her as a human being.  It's painful to read.

[LootieTootie]

17 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

This includes all the times you talk at her for HOURS and then want to do a post mortem on the talk; "how do you think that discussion went?"  In healthy real life relationships - including parent /child, friendship, employer/employee, friendship -  the part AFTER the discussion where each person has had their say and it's closed - is very important.  You prevent that part.

 

Yes I agree. Its exhausting and needy. It's like "So we just talked about some heavy stuff and now we must talk about how the talk went." Believe me, this will get old quick for anyone.

You do know that this is practically saying to her: "you've already validated me that you like me so much not to yell, scream, leave but can we go over this again so I can be re-validated?"

 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

Some harsh truths being said however I do think his heart is in the right place and he's simply trying to navigate the scene with this lady.

Hurt people attract hurt people.

Damaged people attract damaged people.

Apparently, this is their dynamic for whatever reason and either they can learn from each other and heal each other and themselves or they will eventually destroy each other. 

I am hoping for the former.

Whirl, you around?  

[Jaunty]

38 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Some harsh truths being said however I do think his heart is in the right place and he's simply trying to navigate the scene with this lady.

Hurt people attract hurt people.

Damaged people attract damaged people.

 

Sure hurt people attract hurt people.

The actual cliché is "hurt people hurt people."  

A great many hurt, damaged people were, indeed, hurt by others who were hurt before them.  

This doesn't excuse the behavior in ANY way.  No, the fact that an abuser was abused as a child does not excuse the abuse they inflict on others.

Not saying that the OP is an abuser.  Nope. But there has not been any evidence of "heart in the right place" here, at least not if you're talking about the OP's behavior towards this woman.  

[MissCanuck]

This is an obscene amount of pressure and drama for two people who have known each other a couple months. 

 

 

[MrMan1983]

14 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Okay wait a second, I thought she responded to his lovely text with this:

"Guess I was hoping for something a little bit more engaged than that."

But now after re-reading, those were Whirl's words to US.

OK, totally my bad, apologies Whirl.

Her emoji response was fine. 

I need a break, gonna go for a run now.  I'm losing it, lol. 😂

 

Before seeing this I thought whoa her texting expectations are a bit different 😂

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, bluecastle said:

My caveat is that I can’t tell if it’s this hard for her—if the “fitting in” is an actual dilemma she’s grappling with in a whiplash-inducing manner—or something more stoked by Whirling’s anxiety. 

Oh I see- I thought Whirling's query was the more practical viewpoint but you mean he may think that is the issue but it's more what you wrote above.

For me personally -I am soon 57, we were 42 when we married and became parents shortly thereafter and relocated far away that same year while I became a SAHM and unemployed for the first time since the 1980s most likely. But I also had to change my temperament/habits/approach both to be a good wife and mom.  Change -not dramatically like the practical changes - but definitely changes. My husband has too -I'm type A married to type B and I'm inspired to be more type B - to me that's the sort of change that's referred to above. It's not easy nor is it age dependent -I never felt any more set in my ways at 40 as compared to 14 (but again that's just me). 

[rainbowsandroses]

9 hours ago, Jaunty said:

But there has not been any evidence of "heart in the right place" here, at least not if you're talking about the OP's behavior towards this woman.  

I see it a bit differently Jaunty.  I see his behavior as a byproduct of his extreme insecurity, low self-worth (which he admitted to) and relentless need for validation.

It's not productive or healthy by any stretch however it's not malicious or done with ill-will from what I've read. 

My sense is he truly cares about her, but in an effort to hold her and prevent himself from being abandoned, his "caring" is being displayed as controlling and other unhealthy behaviors.

Which may result in the very thing he fears - being abandoned and alone.

It's not with malicious intent but definitely unproductive, unhealthy and has the potential to become toxic for both. 

Just my take and contend I might be reading this all wrong like I did with his earlier post!  

 

[Jaunty]

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I see it a bit differently Jaunty.  I see his behavior as a byproduct of his extreme insecurity, low self-worth (which he admitted to) and relentless need for validation.

It's not productive or healthy by any stretch however it's not malicious or done with ill-will from what I've read. 

Do you think that most people who do wrong to others are experiencing that as coming from "ill will" or malice?  I don't.  I think it usually stems from 2 places:  self defense, or self serving.  Often both at once.  

Even people who do terrible violence (NOT the OP or anything like the OP) generally feel like they are just getting a need of their own met (YES like the OP).  Or, that they need to do it to protect themselves.  Also, like the OP.

For the "object" on the receiving end, the psychological construct behind it all is not relevant.  It needs NOT to be relevant.  How many people here have stayed in abusive relationships, or even just miserably dysfunctional ones, or even work environments etc. because they feel like they understand the "reasons" for the abuse, mistreatment, neglect, whatever?  The "reasons" don't matter, when it comes to staying in dysfunction. 

Yes, they do matter when it comes to working through things with a loved one.  That is not the case here.  These are people who have been dating a while and the relationship is being subjected to atrocious pressure.  The "object" is practically being ganged up against, though, mercifully, she has no idea that her "boyfriend" is garnering the support of hundreds (maybe more) people on the Internet in trashing her character when apparently she is just trying to date the guy.

 

 

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

My sense is he truly cares about her, but in an effort to hold her and prevent himself from being abandoned, his "caring" is being displayed as controlling and other unhealthy behaviors.

I don't get the caring part.  The woman is a cipher, a place holder.   She does not exist really as a sentient being.  She is a mirror.  Her role is to reflect back to the OP the image he wants and needs to see of himself.  Almost all - maybe all - of the reactions shared here are due to her reflecting back at the OP an image he did not "strategize" (a word used often on these threads) for in his plans for the "discussions."  

That is our role here, too.  To absorb the words and respond in the ways they were intended, or get in trouble.  

 

[Jaunty]

OP. If you are reading this:  You behave towards us the same way I'm sure you do towards her.   You just keep on going on, and she (also we) are supposed to follow the script.

I notice how you generally give a brief "critique" of a post before you launch into your next diatribe.  Something like "very insightful post, Johnboy."  Or, conversely, "Jaunty,  the idea of you working in counseling with your off base and embittered take on my situation is ludicrous."  

You are the orchestrator of the whole thing, latching onto the bits that confirm your own narrative, and lashing out at anything that challenges it.

In true reality (as opposed to your internal narrative, which you share here and evidently in your intensives with the woman), had you taken any of the advice given when you were FALLING IN LOVE because of texting on a dating app, you would be in a much different place at this moment.  I don't know what place, but it would have been related to you and she exploring each others' personalities, compatibilities,   what it's like to spend time together,  and how you deal with challenges.  Those events would have been happening in "real time" with the woman.  The time you were not engaging with her, you would have been living your life in all its other aspects rather than orchestrating hours of calls and dissection on the boards.   Not saying it would have been better.  But nothing like this.

Millions of words shared with complete strangers dissecting and trashing the "object" would not be in play at all, because you would be learning about her by experiencing her in real time - not by twisting every nuance into whatever you need it to look like inside your head.  

At this point you appear to be in the negative part of the "splitting" cycle. She was on a pedestal and now she's in the sewer.   Do you agree or disagree with that?

[Type O Negative]

D,

What's happenin' dude??

Don't keep us in suspense!!

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, Jaunty said:

At this point you appear to be in the negative part of the "splitting" cycle. She was on a pedestal and now she's in the sewer.   Do you agree or disagree with that?

Hold on a sec, what's quoted above is behavior exhibited by Borderlines (BPD).

Is Whirling Borderline?  If so, I missed that!

 

[Jaunty]

3 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Hold on a sec, what's quoted above is behavior exhibited by Borderlines (BPD).

Is Whirling Borderline?  If so, I missed that!

 

It's exhibited by people with various personality disorders and also by various individuals who have problems with relationships.  

No way am I getting into diagnosing anyone or joining into the ridiculous overuse of the pop psychology labels du jour, which evidently, today, focus on calling people "avoidants."    I do not agree that "avoidant" is even a noun.