feminism not a variable? check splitting

[spinstermanquee]

On 5/20/2023 at 7:03 PM, reinventmyself said:

I don't split checks in romantic relationships... If it's my idea, I pay and vice versa.

Longtime married here, we do same - usually we alternate picking up the tab, but it's not such an object of attention that we do any enforcement, it's super casual.  I have a larger income, so generally pay for more things / meals / household goods / large purchases.

Now as far as dating goes, when single I did generally accept having our first dinner paid by my date, but I did always either choose mutually acceptable places or have them choose, and was mindful of not ordering the most expensive thing on the menu (which I think is obnoxious). 

Having said that, once in a blue moon I do want the most expensive thing on the menu and am more than happy to pay!  But in the nascent stages of a relationship I would not launch into income levels, spending habits, etc.  It should unfurl naturally, as water seeks its own level...  the goal is to get to know someone, not get some dude to buy me a lobster!

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, spinstermanquee said:

but I did always either choose mutually acceptable places or have them choose, and was mindful of not ordering the most expensive thing on the menu (which I think is obnoxious). 

I had a first meet once where he traveled to meet me - around 1.5 hours including by commuter train.  We met for lunch.  I told him it was my treat -in advance (since he traveled to me and I knew I made more $$$ than he did).  It was a chinese restaurant -waiter service etc.  He saw that I didn't order an appetizer -just a main course -and he ordered both -an appetizer and main course (no not to share with me - I don't think he offered).  When I was treated I always matched and did my best to order something less expensive than my date.  I was put off by his behavior.

[Big Stan]

4 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I disagree. Many people compartmentalize.  They have their professional lives and personal. They hone skills differently in each. I was a bit different. I took my professional skills into parenting. Sleep deprivation.  Multitasking. My photographic memory at times (like I took certain closed book exams as open book because I could see the pages of my notes or a book ).  Being on the ready for fire drills so to speak. That’s part of parenting and was part of my full time professional life. Also I had a couple of years of teaching yoijg kids and daycare work and nannying and a teaching degree. By contrast mh husband had a huge heart and was over the moon about having a baby and had zero parenting or childcare experience.

 Also he does so much professionally keeping track of stuff and has since I guess at least the early 90s but then he’s done I guess. He doesn’t see the personal schedules in the same way. I see this a lot in married couples and I know several families who have house managers or want to hire one. We don’t.  
He’s improved a lot. I appreciate it and I work part time so I’m the one doing more of the adulting as far as appointments and planning and scheduling.  He’s much better at planning our travels. Flights and hotel and itineraries and road trips. what I described I see as fairly typical among the people I know and know of. 

You’re also 15ish years older than I am. What made the change is technology and that 15 years doesn’t seem like a lot but it is when technology is concerned. I grew up with computers in the house since I was a young child and I had internet before middle school. 
 

Leveraging tech to run schedules is a huge differentiator and amongst my peers having wives keep track of your schedule is silly. Women don’t want to do it, and keeping track of your own appointments and family appointments is something that’s just expected of adults these days regardless of gender. 
 

Also most of the people I know have spouses that also work and that might be why. Even in the households where the woman stays home the guy is still responsible for his own schedule. 

[Seraphim]

5 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

You’re also 15ish years older than I am. What made the change is technology and that 15 years doesn’t seem like a lot but it is when technology is concerned. I grew up with computers in the house since I was a young child and I had internet before middle school. 
 

Leveraging tech to run schedules is a huge differentiator and amongst my peers having wives keep track of your schedule is silly. Women don’t want to do it, and keeping track of your own appointments and family appointments is something that’s just expected of adults these days regardless of gender. 
 

Also most of the people I know have spouses that also work and that might be why. Even in the households where the woman stays home the guy is still responsible for his own schedule. 

Bat and I were around long long before computers and internet was around . We were little kids in the 1970’s so stands to reason we have a different view . 

[Big Stan]

6 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

Bat and I were around long long before computers and internet was around . We were little kids in the 1970’s so stands to reason we have a different view . 

Yeah I was born in the early-mid 80's so I didn't really become aware of stuff around me formative years until the 90's.  Computers were much more common, and using them was pretty much a given.  We had computer lab time in elementary school even where we all learned how to use them and programming classes were offered in my HS.  Almost every teen by 16ish had a cell phone too.  

Many of us had palm pilots for HS for the short period of time those were a thing.  The iPhone came out the year I was married and I was still a pretty young man.  Point being stuff like keeping track of your own schedule is super easy now and if you grew up having it required of you then it's just how it is.  

That's probably also what colors my view that SAHM's are unnecessary.  I can see the argument for it when the kids are too small for school but once they are school age there isn't much extra labor the stay at home spouse would be doing to make up for the financial burden resting solely on one person's shoulders. 

[boltnrun]

I get an incredible amount of things done when I work from home and it's just me. My laundry has been piling up (along with other chores being postponed or neglected) now that I'm back in the office. I can't begin to imagine how backed up things would be if I had my two kids at home and wasn't there to get those things done during the week.

Wait, I can imagine. Everything got pushed to the weekend, when I had kids karate and other activities which limited time that could be devoted to household chores. 

So no, the kids being in school all day did not have any impact on laundry, dishes, food shopping, cleaning, etc. that needed to be done. 

[Big Stan]

11 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I get an incredible amount of things done when I work from home and it's just me. My laundry has been piling up (along with other chores being postponed or neglected) now that I'm back in the office. I can't begin to imagine how backed up things would be if I had my two kids at home and wasn't there to get those things done during the week.

Wait, I can imagine. Everything got pushed to the weekend, when I had kids karate and other activities which limited time that could be devoted to household chores. 

So no, the kids being in school all day did not have any impact on laundry, dishes, food shopping, cleaning, etc. that needed to be done. 

Well yeah, but you work what sounds like full time.  Of course it isn't going to give you more time because you're spending that time at work.  I was talking about SAHMs

[boltnrun]

2 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

Well yeah, but you work what sounds like full time.  Of course it isn't going to give you more time because you're spending that time at work.  I was talking about SAHMs

Me too. 

If these SAHM got jobs after their kids are in school full time that means the things they were getting done during the week would have to be pushed to the weekend. 

An interesting (to me) side note, my MIL was a SAHM for her first four kids. She worked full time while the last two kids were growing up. Her first three sons are all well over 6'2" tall and are lean and fit. The last two sons are 5'9" and 5'8" respectively and tend to be heavier. She attributes this to her being home with the first four (one is a daughter), cooking them healthy meals from scratch and ensuring they went outside and got exercise. With the last two she frequently had to rely on takeout food or things that heat up quickly, and they tended to be parked in front of the TV because there was no one there to encourage them to go outside and play. 

[Big Stan]

40 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Me too. 

If these SAHM got jobs after their kids are in school full time that means the things they were getting done during the week would have to be pushed to the weekend. 

An interesting (to me) side note, my MIL was a SAHM for her first four kids. She worked full time while the last two kids were growing up. Her first three sons are all well over 6'2" tall and are lean and fit. The last two sons are 5'9" and 5'8" respectively and tend to be heavier. She attributes this to her being home with the first four (one is a daughter), cooking them healthy meals from scratch and ensuring they went outside and got exercise. With the last two she frequently had to rely on takeout food or things that heat up quickly, and they tended to be parked in front of the TV because there was no one there to encourage them to go outside and play. 

Maybe, but I think it's more along these lines.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12177894/

There's tons of research in the same vein. 

[Batya33]

53 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

Well yeah, but you work what sounds like full time.  Of course it isn't going to give you more time because you're spending that time at work.  I was talking about SAHMs

I worked more than full time many days when I was home full time raising my son including days and weeks of solo parenting. No family help. My husband works more than full time and attained another degree last year so he also was a part time student. And caring for aging parents 800 miles away. 

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

I worked more than full time many days when I was home full time raising my son including days and weeks of solo parenting. No family help. My husband works more than full time and attained another degree last year so he also was a part time student. And caring for aging parents 800 miles away. 

And how many days do you do little to nothing?  I've raised a kid too, I know how much work they are and it varies.  

[boltnrun]

12 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

And how many days do you do little to nothing?

Zero.

A day when the kids/husband/home needed little to nothing is a world I've never lived in. 

[spinstermanquee]

4 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

A day when the kids/husband/home needed little to nothing is a world I've never lived in. 

Same here.  I've never been a SAHP but to me it's the world's most important (and difficult) job.

I used to travel Sunday-Thursday, three weeks out one week in office.  I'd get home on Thursday night, go into the office on Friday, and spend most of the weekend doing laundry, cooking, and cleaning.  One time I came home and kiddo announced "You should see the pile of laundry Daddy and I made!"

That night I decided she was old enough to learn how to do laundry (and my husband was old enough too, LOL).  Laundry skills were gently introduced thereafter and I never got another greeting like that 😉

[Big Stan]

11 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Zero.

A day when the kids/husband/home needed little to nothing is a world I've never lived in. 

I don't believe you.  There simply isn't that much to do with regular maintenance.  

[boltnrun]

10 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

I don't believe you.  There simply isn't that much to do with regular maintenance.  

I answered honestly. I have no reason whatsoever to lie to someone who only exists as words on a screen to me and who will never know me in the real world. 

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

I answered honestly. I have no reason whatsoever to lie to someone who only exists as words on a screen to me and who will never know me in the real world. 

That's fair.  I guess our definitions of a lot to do must be different then.  Perspectives are a thing, and I certainly shouldn't have implied you're a liar.  That was rude, I'm sorry.  

[boltnrun]

2 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

That's fair.  I guess our definitions of a lot to do must be different then.  Perspectives are a thing, and I certainly shouldn't have implied you're a liar.  That was rude, I'm sorry.  

I appreciate the apology.

[mylolita]

39 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Zero.

A day when the kids/husband/home needed little to nothing is a world I've never lived in. 

Amen!

3 kids under 5 here, I have stayed at home for 6 years. I have a large house I clean top to bottom (no hired help). I do every single chore and have done for 15 years. My husband hasn't even so much washed one plate! I do all the gardening, take out all the rubbish, clean out the car, all the laundry, all the food shopping and all the cooking.

My husband has ran his own business for over 20 years, often works away, and I have all of them. My eldest boy has recently started school, but none of them have been in nursery - I have been there for it all, and home schooled my eldest two once they turned 3 for 2 hours every morning while our baby took her nap!

We live a 5 minute walk from the ocean and beach. They are out everyday! I get up between 5am to 6am, cook everyone breakfast, mostly always do the school run, and then it's me and the girls. I'm active in our community, and set up a under 5's read group at the local library that I run with an ex-teacher. We go litter picking on the beach once a week, and I almost always host socially during the week, and have dinner parties. 

I pull a 14 hour day on average, and I did this also while the baby would wake up during the night - I always went in, never my husband - he offered, but I have always been breastfeeding, and it was easier that way.

Of course I get pieces of down time when they nap - I have them in a good routine, but anyone else working would get a lunch hour, or a coffee break, I suppose I just take mine when I can!

Do I do anymore work than anyone else? I'm not sure, but I know it's extremely testing and beyond rewarding, and, they're my best friends and my babies, and the next generation. It's an honour!

Some people might call me lazy or pampered, but I try my best most days and it takes a lot of energy. I've worked full time and it's a different type of responsibility. I'll be checking in on all three of them in another hour now they're down for the night. It really is on call 24/7, but in the most fantastic way!

I couldn't devote the time I wanted to if I had been working part time or full time, especially whilst really tiny, and I don't know how it's possible to breastfeed babies if you have to go back to work.

Feminism was supposed to give women a choice - but these days, people want a certain lifestyle, so often, both have to work to support their lifestyle choices. I feel very lucky that I get to do both without working, and get a true choice. I appreciate my husband everyday for that, I really do.

A lot of women, especially my own age (I'm 33) see me as anti-feminist, or going against women's rights. I don't think that's true at all. I'm just living a fairly traditional life, for this time, while they are young. I might still live it after, I don't know, but I believe people can do what they want as long as they're not hurting anyone or oppressing any progress or other peoples freedoms!

I actually don't know how women work full time and raise kids. That's the part that baffles me! And hats off to them!

x

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, Big Stan said:

And how many days do you do little to nothing?  I've raised a kid too, I know how much work they are and it varies.  

Never. I was home full time first 7 years. Never ever. There were a couple of days I did volunteer work for the local radio station (while child was in pre school or kindergarten) and I also spent hours getting ready to return to work - certain educational/certification requirements, CV updating , networking, job hunting and interviewing.  

I started in December 2014 and couldn’t look full time because my FIL needed my husband’s help after his wife passed away plus he was ill and so I solo parented often like for example a 5 day trip turned into 18. My son was in first grade then. I found the right position and returned to work in 2016. Same position ever since.  

during Covid our son was in 5th-7th grade. Virtual for 15 months.  Not self sufficient - not nearly.  So we were both so busy teleworking plus facilitating his virtual school.  
I was home full time till he was 7. The only time I did little to nothing was when I was really sick. I was rarely really sick. I mean I couldn’t be.  But I’m pretty darn healthy.

 I know there was one day when he was a baby and my husband had to stay home because I was flattened lol. 
also I had a few oral surgeries. I therefore did nothing much the day of although when I had my wisdom tooth out my husband was on a plane. That day I took my son to an after school event.
The next day I went to a work meeting. The day after - Saturday  - I solo parented but yes I had the computer babysit him rather than going out and about. I needed time to heal.  
so basically - nope never. 
my husband snd I saw my role as raising our son with cooking and cleaning secondary. From 2009-2020 we had a twice a month cleaning service. We cleaned up for the service lol. I cleaned the house otherwise and I did the shopping and some cooking and lots of food prep. My son didn’t go to any school till age 3.5. He went 4 hours that year. 6 hours the following year and 6.5-7 starting in kindergarten.  When I returned to work part time I did one day off after school then added a day when he was 9.  He had some after school activities which I attended- waited. I’d bring work with me and or for religious school sometimes I did volunteer work there while he was at the school. 

the stay at home parents I know who do have more free time either hire sitters or have grandparents who take the kids or they do a lot of structured activities they pay for where another adult takes over like a sport.  We did very little if that and not when he was a toddler etc. 

[mylolita]

I have to also add, when you are the sole cleaner (and keep it immaculate!) for a 4 storey Georgian town house with gardens, and you also have two toddlers with only 19 months apart, and are pregnant again, but do it all anyway, pregnant - I have to say, I look back, and I am pretty proud!

Being pregnant is absolutely exhausting on you, physically, and then when you have to take care of other babies at the same time, one who still wakes up in the night - it's no easy walk in the park!

I'm high energy, but I've had my moments. It definitely wasn't nothing, and it definitely isn't a lazy slouch of a day!

If you plonk them in front of the tv all day and order takeaway - then, maybe. But that is neglectful, and so unhealthy. And, I don't actually know a 1-3 year old who will sit still and watch cartoons for more than half an hour to an hour anyway, they are up and wanting to do things, need changing, need potty training, need cleaning up after, feeding, and playing with. It's none stop!

My old boss who was a woman used to joke, way before I had my kids, "You'll want to come to work for a rest!"

Maybe that's true now 😆 Hindsight!

x

[Batya33]

48 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

I don't believe you.  There simply isn't that much to do with regular maintenance.  

It’s also because IMHO if you do it right you’re not staying in one place and often are not at home cause you’re exploring the outside world with your young kids. My mom said when she was pregnant with me and my sister was 5 she’d veg on the couch during Sesame Street. I think the show lasted 30-45 minutes.

So yeah I suppose she did nothing for 45 minutes while growing a human and watching over my angelic sister. Like Lolita said I’m sure working people get at least a 30-45 minute “break “ at some point during the day. 
OK. This  is weird. I wrote the above then read Lolita’s post after. Who expressed herself more eloquently and first hand - cause I only grew one human - not three like Ms. Lolita or 4 like my big sister. 

[Cherylyn]

Fortunately,  I defer to my husband,  sons,  local brother and brother-in-law for anything.  However,  if I had to do everything myself,  I'd figure out a way to to do it such as repairs / maintenance for the house,  cars,  etc.  Fortunately,  my brother offers to help with any lifting such as furniture,  moving, assisting my husband,  sons and the like.  I have "reinforcements" at my disposal.  Lucky me. 😊  Ignorance is bliss in this regard but if I had to tackle these tasks myself,  I can do it.  They are all handymen, fortunately or a "jack of all trades."  (Electrical,  plumbing,  construction, repairs,  maintenance,  yard work, etc.)  They've saved us a ton of money.

As for check splitting,  it's not a big deal to us.  Whoever pays,  pays.  We take turns.  It all evens out in the wash as they say.      

[mylolita]

39 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

It’s also because IMHO if you do it right you’re not staying in one place and often are not at home cause you’re exploring the outside world with your young kids. My mom said when she was pregnant with me and my sister was 5 she’d veg on the couch during Sesame Street. I think the show lasted 30-45 minutes.

So yeah I suppose she did nothing for 45 minutes while growing a human and watching over my angelic sister. Like Lolita said I’m sure working people get at least a 30-45 minute “break “ at some point during the day. 
OK. This  is weird. I wrote the above then read Lolita’s post after. Who expressed herself more eloquently and first hand - cause I only grew one human - not three like Ms. Lolita or 4 like my big sister. 

One is still one Batya, don't ever put yourself down! In some ways, it can be more work actually, as when you have two or more, they pair up, play together, and entertain themselves for awhile! So don't sell yourself short at all!!! 😉

Ahhh yes, great minds... hahahahahahahahahaha!

x

[mylolita]

Let's not forget girls... you have a baby, basically the equivalent to an operation, and then you come home and, just go at it? I remember coming home 8 hours after having my third baby (all my labours went great, I feel very lucky) and walking into the house I had only been cleaning the day before, straight away to see my other two who were 3 and 2 years old, and taking care of them, cooking them something, and making tea for some family who had swung round! And then, during the night, up with the new baby and my 2 year old, and then the next day, out in the pram with the other two to yes, go for a walk and, they wanted to head to the park! By this point my baby girl was 2 days old!

No easy ride people, no easy feat!

Tooting my own horn! HA! TOOT TOOT A TOOTIE TOOT! 😆

I believe in regular jobs you would put in holiday, or have sick pay after the equivalent! Where was mine? Nowhere. But nothing good ever comes easy! 

But maybe it is a big doss and I sit around eating cake and watching tv all day. (The cake part is actually true... I call it the "hummingbird diet" aka, running on glucose and caffeine. It works - kinda!)

I don't know where the OP's question went but yes, split the cheque if you like - LOL!

x

[mylolita]

Can I just add, to totally de-rail this lovely thread(!) that, can you possibly get anymore British than this? That I was making the builders and electricians and joiners who were working on our house a cup of tea, as intense labour cramps started up? And put the tea pot on a tray, and had to take stops along the kitchen island to breathe, before delivering this tray out to them in the garden?

LOLOLOL!

Sorry, this has brought back memories! Sorry OP! I will leave this thread now! I've gone off on one!

Happy Days!

x