The inevitable first argument...

[Cynder]

My bf and I have been together since August and tonight we had our first argument.  I'm using argument for lack of a better word here because what we did wasn't really arguing.  

I've told people the class I learned the most from in college was human relations.  It was taking that class that made me realize a lot of my bad social habits and helped me be less awkward.  I used to be a really socially awkward person.  

When I was younger and got into arguments with people, my goal was to be as mean and brutal as possible.  This is how I grew up and I was constantly put down.  This is not an excuse, and I feel terrible about how I've treated people in the past.  Nothing ever got resolved in any of those arguments because it was more about insulting each other and proving who was right.  

Now, after years of therapy, a near death experience, and a lot of self reflection, I know how to argue constructively and not destructively.  Unfortunately most of the people I've dated never learned this and still want to make it all about who's right and who can be the meanest.  

I'm not going to spend tons of time on what this was over because that's not what I'm asking about.  He is struggling with some mental health issues right now.  And lately, it seems like every conversation we have revolves around that.  I understand it isn't his fault.  I do everything I can to be as supportive as possible.  But it also gets exhausting being someone’s emotional support all the time.  Yesterday, there was something I wanted to tell him about (nothing negative) and every time I tried he just kept steering thr conversation back to how depressed he is.  And then tonight we were talking, and it started happening again. And so I just broke down and told him anymore I feel like I am failing him and I also feel like my role in his life is to stand off to the side and be a cheerleader.  And then I just braced for the worst because that's what I'm used to.  

His response was to apologize and tell me I'm not failing him and he doesn't think of me as his cheerleader.   And I pointed out that  yesterday I just wanted to tell him about this cool thing that happened to me, and he kept talking about how depressed he was.  I said there are two of us in this relationship and I like talking about my life, too.  Especially when it's something positive.  He told me he talks to me more than his husband about this stuff because his husband never knows what to say.  (We are polygamous before any asks.  His husband is fully aware of me and ok with this arrangement.  Also, not sure if it matters but I am female.)

And then he said, "I'm so sorry I made you feel that way.  What can I do to make it right?" And then we ended up having this really good conversation.  The whole thing  started in texts but ended up on the phone.  I know it's not good to argue via text but sometimes it just happens.  Things got pretty emotional on both ends when we were on the phone.  We are both emotional people.  

The thing is though.  Even though it seems like any serious conflict was resolved, now I feel worse than I did when it started.  I can't stop crying.  I feel guilty as hell, etc.  And I have no idea why.  

I was taught from really early on in life that my opinions/wants etc don't matter.  My parents made it really clear I was not wanted and I was told I ruined both their lives.  So now, I can stand there stone faced while someone calls me every name in the book because I've been so hardened to it.  But compliments make me want to cry.  And I guess being in a relationship with someone who actually listens and wants to resolve conflicts also makes me cry.  Like, I haven't been able to stop crying since it happened.  I frrl completely raw and emotionally exhausted.  I didn't cry this much when I found out my ex husband was cheating with a good friend of mine (at the time.. not friends anymore.) I yelled at him and told him I hated him and then texted her the same thing pretty.much.  

But tonight, this thing happened that is completely healthy and we both handled it really well.  But I feel completely gutted like my world is ending.  I realize this is something I should talk to my therapist about.  But my next appt isn't for two weeks and I just needed somewhere to get it out.  Comments are appreciated.  But I also recognize that people here can't figure this out for me.  It just seems like such an off kilter reaction for something that was pretty minor when considering the bigger picture.  I shouldn't feel like I'm having a straight up crisis.  

Thanks for reading.  I'm on my phone so I'm sorry if this is sloppy.

 

[Wiseman2]

It's good you spoke up and sorted it out. It's important to have boundaries.

In this case it's ok to be supportive of someone's mental health struggles but if  conversations become a pity party monologue that tunes everyone and everything else out, that's when it's time to draw the line and speak up.

[MissCanuck]

1 hour ago, Cynder said:

But I feel completely gutted like my world is ending

Are you afraid that if you assert yourself, the other person will leave? 

That's what I'm getting from this -a fear of saying something that rocks the boat and could leave you  by yourself. 

[1a1a]

I wonder if having someone listen to you ask for what you need and hear and acknowledge that and work with you to heal the rift triggers a sense of vulnerability (as in, this thing is even more precious than I thought, now the thought of losing it is even more scary. ) Also, you might be grieving for yourself, for all the times in your life the other person didn’t hear you. 

[Cynder]

54 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Are you afraid that if you assert yourself, the other person will leave? 

That's what I'm getting from this -a fear of saying something that rocks the boat and could leave you  by yourself. 

No, I wouldn't say that's the case now.  It was in the past with some of my exes.  But I know he's not going anywhere unless I royally screw up bad.  I know that probably sounds arrogant.  But he carried a torch for me for years.  He is really devoted. 

I also love being single.  Being alone isn't something I'm afraid of.  The happiest times of my life are when I was single.  I've only been broken up with twice.  I am almost always the dumper. 

What I feel now is more like guilt, to be honest.  I feel like a horrible person for upsetting him.  Last night when we were on the phone his voice was cracking, and I could tell he was trying to hide being emotional.  Idk, just the fact that I made him upset enough to cry is what is really eating away at me.  Seeing him cry and seeing my nephew cry are the two things that will absolutely wreck me. 

But I know there's probably more to it than just that.  Being told as a kid about the lives I ruined, and then my first serious boyfriend also told me about how I ruined his life too.  I feel like I suck the happiness right out of everyone I care about. 

[Cynder]

18 minutes ago, 1a1a said:

I wonder if having someone listen to you ask for what you need and hear and acknowledge that and work with you to heal the rift triggers a sense of vulnerability (as in, this thing is even more precious than I thought, now the thought of losing it is even more scary. ) Also, you might be grieving for yourself, for all the times in your life the other person didn’t hear you. 

That could be it...  I've heard you really don't know a person until you've seen them deal with some crap.  Everyone is at their best when everything is great. 

And also, I was not looking for anything serious when I started seeing him.  And I was honest about it.  He started out as my cuddle buddy and someone I go places with.  We were seeing each other for three months before we ever even kissed on the mouth.  I didn't plan on falling for him.  After my most recent ex ghosted me and pretty much wrecked my life for a time, I was sure I would never love anyone again.  I know everyone says that while going through a breakup.  But I really didn't think I could ever handle it again.  And here I am.  There are times when I think I'm really stupid for letting myself get this close to anyone again. 

And there could be some grieving for myself involved, too.  I've realized that a lot of the problems now can all be traced back to feeling invisible most of my life.  When I was growing up I learned really fast to be seen and heard as little as possible because I was just constantly in trouble.  Like, I was doing a report in history class my Junior year of high school about Women's Rights.  And I said something about feminism at the dinner table one night and both my parents flipped out.  I was told I don't have any right to talk about that because I'm a stupid 16 year old girl and I need to just shut my mouth.  That's one story but I could tell probably a hundred stories like this.  Where just having an opinion was the end of the world in my house.  They also liked to say stuff like, "You don't pay bills so you're not entitled to an opinion," when I was a kid. 

Even my current roommate (who is about to be my ex roommate, thank Gods) can't handle even the slightest criticism.  Me trying to have a polite conversation with her about how she hasn't paid rent in three months literally got something thrown at me. 

I feel like last night was the first time ever when I've told someone "Hey, when you did abc it made me feel xyz.  And I don't like feeling xyz, so can we figure out a way to prevent that in the future?" and someone actually listened and didn't just get mad.  I clearly don't know how to handle that. 

[Kwothe28]

Just a different conflict resolution. You got used to "toxic" so much that healthy conflict resolution just feel strange to you and dont know how to react. Dont think its something bad, just "new" situation that you still dont know how to react to.

[Batya33]

Do you feel in hindsight like you had poor timing as far as when you raised how you were feeling about his reaction to your good news?  I am NOT saying you did. At all. Just asking if your guilty feelings were triggered by your choice of timing. 

[Cherylyn]

Your background is reminiscent of mine to an extent. 

I too was enrolled in a human relations class long ago.  However, what taught me the most about people was real life harsh experiences due to experiments which went horribly awry. 

My mother is mean and brutal as is my sister.  I tend to steer clear of them because there are two types of people in this world according to my experience.  The first type slams me to the core because they're always right and unless I acquiesce,  I'm bullied to defeat.  Results are quite ugly and nasty.  The second type of person is calm,  seeks a resolution,  empathetic,  values both sides of the story and very peace loving.  I always gravitate towards those who possess emotional intelligence.  Any other way is non-negotiable for me.  The best thing I've ever done was know the difference.

I don't mind socially awkward people as long as they know how to respect others.  If that rule is habitually broken,  the relationship (or friendship) is irrevocably broken and damaged.

If I can't afford to eliminate certain people from my life,  I enforce extremely strong boundaries with them and for those whom I can afford to get rid of, out they go permanently!

Your boyfriend sounds like my local mother.  She has a lot of baggage and I've been her therapist forever.  It's now to the point where I'm no longer in therapy mode.  We don't chat on the phone and whenever I see her in person,  we only engage in superficial chit chat and nothing else.  Same with my brother.  It works.  Anything else leads to the  "Third World War."  ☹️

Your boyfriend sounds very draining and every conversation is steered back to his direction because he doesn't care about your life,  what you think,  your thoughts nor anything.  I wouldn't want to be with a guy like that either.  It's exhausting.  Being a constant morally supportive person and cheerleader is taxing and makes for an unhappy relationship because it's always all about him!

At least your boyfriend apologized to you.  However, his future habits will determine if his apology was sincere and promotes change.  Only time will tell.  Just because his husband doesn't know what to say,  doesn't give him the right to constantly dump on you while not expressing interest in your life.

I would avoid excessive texting and at least focus on either in person conversations or at the very least, a real voice during a phone conversation.  Texting / emails and the like can lead to disastrous results.  Something gets lost in translation and in person dialogue or a real phone chat is so much more effective due to my experience.  I've noticed manners are better in person and during verbal phone conversations and verbal exchange.

Don't feel guilty because there's nothing to feel guilty about.  Stop crying.  You need to be fair to yourself.

Like you,  I was constantly squelched growing up.  My parents ruled with an iron fist.  They gave me low self esteem and I lacked confidence for many years.  Once I changed the way I thought and surrounded myself with normal people including my husband,  sons and some select favorite in-laws and friends,  I came to realize that thinking with common sense and acting normally was the only way to be.  Any other way is a train wreck. 

I'm sorry about your cheating husband.  ☹️  Texting your good friend most likely didn't do anything for her.   People like that are a waste of your time and energy.

I hope your relationship with your boyfriend will improve but it sounds like he has a lot of problems he needs to sort out before he can have a mentally healthy relationship with you.  It's not minor either.  Whenever my husband,  sons and I speak,  we share our lives,  thoughts and days.  None of us monopolize conversations unlike my MIL (mother-in-law) and mother.  

Know what a normal dialogue should be and then determine whether or not you can endure and tolerate this dynamic long or short term.  It's your choice.

Focus on verbal dialogue whether in person or during a verbal phone chat.  The outcome is generally better than typing back 'n forth. 

 

 

 

[Cynder]

6 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Do you feel in hindsight like you had poor timing as far as when you raised how you were feeling about his reaction to your good news?  I am NOT saying you did. At all. Just asking if your guilty feelings were triggered by your choice of timing. 

That is part of the guilt I'm feeling, yea.  Lately he's been having some real problems with his son and also his husband.  His son is a teenager being an angry teenager.  I'm not saying him being a teenager gives him a free pass.  But he's been kind of a jerk lately.  (Making comments like, "I'm the real man of this house!" "At least I have real balls!" Etc.  And considering the gender issues at play here, comments like that are really nasty.)

And bf and his husband have also been arguing a lot, too.  So until last night he was probably feeling like I'm the only one he hasn't pissed off.  And pissed off doesn't even really describe what I felt.  I was annoyed and frustrated, but not angry.  But, out of the three people he's closest to, he probably feels like he's letting all three of us down. 

 

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Cynder said:

That is part of the guilt I'm feeling, yea.  Lately he's been having some real problems with his son and also his husband.  His son is a teenager being an angry teenager.  I'm not saying him being a teenager gives him a free pass.  But he's been kind of a jerk lately.  (Making comments like, "I'm the real man of this house!" "At least I have real balls!" Etc.  And considering the gender issues at play here, comments like that are really nasty.)

And bf and his husband have also been arguing a lot, too.  So until last night he was probably feeling like I'm the only one he hasn't pissed off.  And pissed off doesn't even really describe what I felt.  I was annoyed and frustrated, but not angry.  But, out of the three people he's closest to, he probably feels like he's letting all three of us down. 

 

Yes I understand -and to clarify -I don't think anything was amiss with your timing just posing it and I can see where it kind of never would feel like good timing! So that's the issue maybe? In a way -with this person -it rarely will be good timing, right so you're a wee bit on eggshells if you want attention for something you are going through.  

[Cynder]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Yes I understand -and to clarify -I don't think anything was amiss with your timing just posing it and I can see where it kind of never would feel like good timing! So that's the issue maybe? In a way -with this person -it rarely will be good timing, right so you're a wee bit on eggshells if you want attention for something you are going through.  

I know what you mean and I didn't think you were saying my timing was bad, etc.  In a situation like this there's never a good time. 

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Cynder said:

I know what you mean and I didn't think you were saying my timing was bad, etc.  In a situation like this there's never a good time. 

You know -maybe it would actually help him sort of -get out of his own head- for you to assert yourself more -meaning listen to him for sure but make it a routine to share about you -even say "ok can I do your side of the conversation?" Answer (confused) um sure.... OK

You: "So, Cynder, how was your day today sweetpea??"

Cynder: Oh! thanks for asking!! Well.....

[now I do not mean to say this in a sarcastic way at all or passive aggressive way -in a lighthearted way - I had a bf who never asked -even though he actually did care - so I'd do that and tell him lol]

[Cynder]

3 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

Your background is reminiscent of mine to an extent. 

I too was enrolled in a human relations class long ago.  However, what taught me the most about people was real life harsh experiences due to experiments which went horribly awry. 

My mother is mean and brutal as is my sister.  I tend to steer clear of them because there are two types of people in this world according to my experience.  The first type slams me to the core because they're always right and unless I acquiesce,  I'm bullied to defeat.  Results are quite ugly and nasty.  The second type of person is calm,  seeks a resolution,  empathetic,  values both sides of the story and very peace loving.  I always gravitate towards those who possess emotional intelligence.  Any other way is non-negotiable for me.  The best thing I've ever done was know the difference.

I don't mind socially awkward people as long as they know how to respect others.  If that rule is habitually broken,  the relationship (or friendship) is irrevocably broken and damaged.

If I can't afford to eliminate certain people from my life,  I enforce extremely strong boundaries with them and for those whom I can afford to get rid of, out they go permanently!

Your boyfriend sounds like my local mother.  She has a lot of baggage and I've been her therapist forever.  It's now to the point where I'm no longer in therapy mode.  We don't chat on the phone and whenever I see her in person,  we only engage in superficial chit chat and nothing else.  Same with my brother.  It works.  Anything else leads to the  "Third World War."  ☹️

Your boyfriend sounds very draining and every conversation is steered back to his direction because he doesn't care about your life,  what you think,  your thoughts nor anything.  I wouldn't want to be with a guy like that either.  It's exhausting.  Being a constant morally supportive person and cheerleader is taxing and makes for an unhappy relationship because it's always all about him!

At least your boyfriend apologized to you.  However, his future habits will determine if his apology was sincere and promotes change.  Only time will tell.  Just because his husband doesn't know what to say,  doesn't give him the right to constantly dump on you while not expressing interest in your life.

I would avoid excessive texting and at least focus on either in person conversations or at the very least, a real voice during a phone conversation.  Texting / emails and the like can lead to disastrous results.  Something gets lost in translation and in person dialogue or a real phone chat is so much more effective due to my experience.  I've noticed manners are better in person and during verbal phone conversations and verbal exchange.

Don't feel guilty because there's nothing to feel guilty about.  Stop crying.  You need to be fair to yourself.

Like you,  I was constantly squelched growing up.  My parents ruled with an iron fist.  They gave me low self esteem and I lacked confidence for many years.  Once I changed the way I thought and surrounded myself with normal people including my husband,  sons and some select favorite in-laws and friends,  I came to realize that thinking with common sense and acting normally was the only way to be.  Any other way is a train wreck. 

I'm sorry about your cheating husband.  ☹️  Texting your good friend most likely didn't do anything for her.   People like that are a waste of your time and energy.

I hope your relationship with your boyfriend will improve but it sounds like he has a lot of problems he needs to sort out before he can have a mentally healthy relationship with you.  It's not minor either.  Whenever my husband,  sons and I speak,  we share our lives,  thoughts and days.  None of us monopolize conversations unlike my MIL (mother-in-law) and mother.  

Know what a normal dialogue should be and then determine whether or not you can endure and tolerate this dynamic long or short term.  It's your choice.

Focus on verbal dialogue whether in person or during a verbal phone chat.  The outcome is generally better than typing back 'n forth. 

 

 

 

Idk...  it's been suggested more than once (by people who know a lot about the subject) that I am on the autism spectrum.  (And I most likely am.  I just have never been diagnosed.)  So for me, being in that class was where I learned a lot because I just didn't pick up on social cues when I was younger.  Like, I used to be one of those people who would tell someone I barely know my whole life story when they ask, "How are you?"  That's a greeting in my culture.  When someone says that they aren't actually asking.  I just had no self awareness when I was younger and until a lot of this stuff was literally explained to me I just didn't get it.  And I'm sure it didn't help that I didn't have any stable role models in my life growing up.  Most of the adults I knew personally were unstable people. 

Lately, he has been very draining.  I've known him since 2017 though.  And he was never like this until recently.  A chain of bad luck has him really depressed and down on himself.  I'm not making excuses for him but I know what it's like to be in that situation.  Sometimes it's hard to see passed your own pain. 

I know texting isn't always a healthy way to communicate.  We both hate talking on the phone.  And usually when we do talk on the phone he has me on speaker while he's working and there is so much background noise that it literally gives me a headache.  Idk if it's just his phone or what, but I hear everything.

I just woke up a little bit ago and haven't talked to him yet today.  I guess we will see...

[Cherylyn]

1 hour ago, Cynder said:

Idk...  it's been suggested more than once (by people who know a lot about the subject) that I am on the autism spectrum.  (And I most likely am.  I just have never been diagnosed.)  So for me, being in that class was where I learned a lot because I just didn't pick up on social cues when I was younger.  Like, I used to be one of those people who would tell someone I barely know my whole life story when they ask, "How are you?"  That's a greeting in my culture.  When someone says that they aren't actually asking.  I just had no self awareness when I was younger and until a lot of this stuff was literally explained to me I just didn't get it.  And I'm sure it didn't help that I didn't have any stable role models in my life growing up.  Most of the adults I knew personally were unstable people. 

Lately, he has been very draining.  I've known him since 2017 though.  And he was never like this until recently.  A chain of bad luck has him really depressed and down on himself.  I'm not making excuses for him but I know what it's like to be in that situation.  Sometimes it's hard to see passed your own pain. 

I know texting isn't always a healthy way to communicate.  We both hate talking on the phone.  And usually when we do talk on the phone he has me on speaker while he's working and there is so much background noise that it literally gives me a headache.  Idk if it's just his phone or what, but I hear everything.

I just woke up a little bit ago and haven't talked to him yet today.  I guess we will see...

I hear you.  If you don't grow up with empathy nor treated with empathy from parents and family life,  adults are messed up and have difficulty interacting with others.  It took many years for me to figure out how to navigate my life and hone my interpersonal skills.  Fortunately,  my husband and select in-laws were a positive influence on me and I've since learned a lot about people through trial and error.

I hear:  "How are you?" all the time from my suburban neighbors during walks or if I'm watering plants in my front yard,  from retailers,  general errands,  friends,  acquaintances and the like.  It's an automatic greeting of goodwill.  In other cases,  management taught its employees to be courteous and friendly.  It is the norm.  Of course,  they don't want to hear my life's story but I say, "Fine, thank you and you?"  Something like that.  When everyone is well mannered,  all is well.  🙂

I understand what you're saying about unstable role models while growing up.  Same here.  All I could do is learn along the way from positive role models in society.  I've also learned that if my behavior is good,  I tend to receive positive responses from others in public and non-public life.  It works both ways.

Your boyfriend has a lot of baggage which he's dumping on you.  He's an energy vampire.  Google "energy vampire."  They suck the lifeblood out of you and leave you constantly emotionally fatigued.

I agree,  texting is not a healthy way to communicate especially heavy duty stuff.  Save that for in person verbal conversations.  Since phone chats are distracting with background racket,  wait to see him in person and have a conversation with him then.  Hopefully,  he'll discontinue being a conversation hog and express interest in your life. 

Set up boundaries regarding excessive texting which turns into a huge time trap.  You can't get anything done.  You can't be industrious if your nose is in your phone.

 

 

[Cynder]

32 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

I hear you.  If you don't grow up with empathy nor treated with empathy from parents and family life,  adults are messed up and have difficulty interacting with others.  It took many years for me to figure out how to navigate my life and hone my interpersonal skills.  Fortunately,  my husband and select in-laws were a positive influence on me and I've since learned a lot about people through trial and error.

I hear:  "How are you?" all the time from my suburban neighbors during walks or if I'm watering plants in my front yard,  from retailers,  general errands,  friends,  acquaintances and the like.  It's an automatic greeting of goodwill.  In other cases,  management taught its employees to be courteous and friendly.  It is the norm.  Of course,  they don't want to hear my life's story but I say, "Fine, thank you and you?"  Something like that.  When everyone is well mannered,  all is well.  🙂

I understand what you're saying about unstable role models while growing up.  Same here.  All I could do is learn along the way from positive role models in society.  I've also learned that if my behavior is good,  I tend to receive positive responses from others in public and non-public life.  It works both ways.

Your boyfriend has a lot of baggage which he's dumping on you.  He's an energy vampire.  Google "energy vampire."  They suck the lifeblood out of you and leave you constantly emotionally fatigued.

I agree,  texting is not a healthy way to communicate especially heavy duty stuff.  Save that for in person verbal conversations.  Since phone chats are distracting with background racket,  wait to see him in person and have a conversation with him then.  Hopefully,  he'll discontinue being a conversation hog and express interest in your life. 

Set up boundaries regarding excessive texting which turns into a huge time trap.  You can't get anything done.  You can't be industrious if your nose is in your phone.

 

 

To me talking on the phone is more of a time trap.  It takes a few seconds to send a text but I can't do anything while on the phone unless I put the call on speaker.  And i don't like doing that because I don't want my whole house hearing the conversation.  My roommate is the kind of person who uses things against people.  (She's on her way out, though.)

Lately he has been acting like an energy vampire.  I agree.  I'm a believer in karma.  And I wonder how much of this is my own karma because I'm sure certain people have thought of me as an energy vampire in the past.  I've been called out by friends and exes for the same thing I called him out for last night.  (It's been years since anyone called me out for it but it still happened.)

In August of 2021 when my whole life fell apart I had a group of close friends who pretty much kept me alive.  My boyfriend was one of them.  He wasn't my boyfriend at the time though.  We were friends for 5 years before we started dating.  I made sure I didn't talk to any one person too much during that time though because I didn't want to lean too hard on anyone.  

So, he was there for me whenever I needed him during the worst time of my life.  And now he is going through a rough time and I can't return the favor.  And I'm getting a taste of what I put some people I cared about through in the past, too.  

[catfeeder]

Cynder, you did really well. You were not only honest about identifying your feelings, but you were especially helpful to both of you by asking to team up and figure out how to address the issue and prevent it in the future.

That's healthy and skillful negotiation. It keeps you both on the same side.

Ruptures and repairs are a natural course of healthy relationships, because a lack of such cycles signal a lack of intimacy.

So that's the technical stuff. The emotional stuff is all about vulnerability. 

There can be no real intimacy without vulnerability, but vulnerability doesn't always feel good. 

As you can see, it's stirred up all your private historic stuff--and it goes deep. It's natural to contrast your early handling of conflict with your current test of your new skills.

It's probably also natural to spill some of the 'guilties' that come up from the past onto your current instance even though you can intellectually see how productive this instance actually was.

Rather than failing D, it's more likely that you've inspired him to step up and reach for his better self. He's equally as clear that he's been reverting to laziness and taking you for granted. You've done BOTH of you a favor by capping a limit on that. Infinite indulgence does NObody any favors.

Head high, you've got this. It might not feel like it at the moment, but trust it and trust yourself.

PS: Consider 2 sets of a SONY wireless stereo headset, one for each of you. Cost is 20-something bucks each. It filters background noises, it keeps your convos private, it allows for hands-free--it's been a lifesaver for me, especially with a lot of construction around me.

[Cherylyn]

1 hour ago, Cynder said:

To me talking on the phone is more of a time trap.  It takes a few seconds to send a text but I can't do anything while on the phone unless I put the call on speaker.  And i don't like doing that because I don't want my whole house hearing the conversation.  My roommate is the kind of person who uses things against people.  (She's on her way out, though.)

Lately he has been acting like an energy vampire.  I agree.  I'm a believer in karma.  And I wonder how much of this is my own karma because I'm sure certain people have thought of me as an energy vampire in the past.  I've been called out by friends and exes for the same thing I called him out for last night.  (It's been years since anyone called me out for it but it still happened.)

In August of 2021 when my whole life fell apart I had a group of close friends who pretty much kept me alive.  My boyfriend was one of them.  He wasn't my boyfriend at the time though.  We were friends for 5 years before we started dating.  I made sure I didn't talk to any one person too much during that time though because I didn't want to lean too hard on anyone.  

So, he was there for me whenever I needed him during the worst time of my life.  And now he is going through a rough time and I can't return the favor.  And I'm getting a taste of what I put some people I cared about through in the past, too.  

The problem with texting is not everyone is good at it and texting can get heated as it moves towards  the wrong direction if it's emotionally charged and too personal whereas with an in person conversation or verbal phone chat, it tends to be better mannered. 

As for talking on the phone,  try taking a safe daytime walk and talk then or meet in person.  Then when you're not with him,  make a pact by getting a break from each other and not bothering each other in between visits.  Give each other time and space.

There's nothing you can do regarding your past and / or being called an energy vampire.  All you can do is learn from it and be considerate from this day forward. 

Even though your boyfriend is going through a rough time,  be honest with yourself if you can't cope by being constantly supportive.  Not everyone is capable,  tolerant nor patient enough to take on this taxing task.  I know I can't and I have my limits.  I grow very tired of other people's woes.  Sure,  I'm compassionate but after a while,  I'm completely spent and can't give an ounce more of myself.  Perhaps you need to be honest with him and apologize for not being as supportive as he was for you but you need to bow out in order to save what little is left of your sanity.  Tell the truth.  Granted, this type of news isn't always received well but you need to take care of your mental health otherwise you're no good to anyone.  You can tell him that.

[Cynder]

6 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

The problem with texting is not everyone is good at it and texting can get heated as it moves towards  the wrong direction if it's emotionally charged and too personal whereas with an in person conversation or verbal phone chat, it tends to be better mannered. 

As for talking on the phone,  try taking a safe daytime walk and talk then or meet in person.  Then when you're not with him,  make a pact by getting a break from each other and not bothering each other in between visits.  Give each other time and space.

There's nothing you can do regarding your past and / or being called an energy vampire.  All you can do is learn from it and be considerate from this day forward. 

Even though your boyfriend is going through a rough time,  be honest with yourself if you can't cope by being constantly supportive.  Not everyone is capable,  tolerant nor patient enough to take on this taxing task.  I know I can't and I have my limits.  I grow very tired of other people's woes.  Sure,  I'm compassionate but after a while,  I'm completely spent and can't give an ounce more of myself.  Perhaps you need to be honest with him and apologize for not being as supportive as he was for you but you need to bow out in order to save what little is left of your sanity.  Tell the truth.  Granted, this type of news isn't always received well but you need to take care of your mental health otherwise you're no good to anyone.  You can tell him that.

I'm really not trying to debate and say texting is better because I don't think it is.  But one good thing I suppose about arguing in text is you have to think about what you're saying before saying it.  It's so easy to blurt stuff out in the heat of the moment that you regret later.  While texting you have to actually type that out and hit send.  I have typed out things and unsent them because when seeing it in writing I decided it's better to not say that. 

Part of our problem is we don't see each other as often as we want to.  We live an hour away from each other and I don't drive.  (I can't because I'm legally blind in both eyes.  Getting my license isn't an option.)  And he is having some real financial problems right now and gas is expensive.  Sometimes we go a month (ocasionally even longer) without seeing each other.  We talk every day, though.  We are both busy people, too.  I work full time and I also own a business on top of that.  He doesn't actually have one single full time job.  He has a lot of part time/temp jobs.  He works on remodel crews.  He cleans out houses where the owner died or the house was foreclosed on, etc.  He is a groundskeeper for a large office park in the warm months.  He works security at festivals.  His landlord pays him to do various stuff at all the properties he owns, etc.  We both work a lot and don't have a ton of down time.  I'm not trying to make excuses because we want to see each other more.  Adulting gets in the way sometimes. 

I know I couldn't handle being his constant supporter for a long time.  This became a thing recently.  I've known him since 2017 And even when we were friends, somehow he always knew exactly what to say to make me feel better whenever I was upset about anything.  And now I feel like I can't do the same for him and that's why I told him I feel like I'm failing him.  I know nothing can just make depression go away.  But after knowing him for almost 6 years I know he's not always like this. 

[Cynder]

8 hours ago, catfeeder said:

Cynder, you did really well. You were not only honest about identifying your feelings, but you were especially helpful to both of you by asking to team up and figure out how to address the issue and prevent it in the future.

That's healthy and skillful negotiation. It keeps you both on the same side.

Ruptures and repairs are a natural course of healthy relationships, because a lack of such cycles signal a lack of intimacy.

So that's the technical stuff. The emotional stuff is all about vulnerability. 

There can be no real intimacy without vulnerability, but vulnerability doesn't always feel good. 

As you can see, it's stirred up all your private historic stuff--and it goes deep. It's natural to contrast your early handling of conflict with your current test of your new skills.

It's probably also natural to spill some of the 'guilties' that come up from the past onto your current instance even though you can intellectually see how productive this instance actually was.

Rather than failing D, it's more likely that you've inspired him to step up and reach for his better self. He's equally as clear that he's been reverting to laziness and taking you for granted. You've done BOTH of you a favor by capping a limit on that. Infinite indulgence does NObody any favors.

Head high, you've got this. It might not feel like it at the moment, but trust it and trust yourself.

PS: Consider 2 sets of a SONY wireless stereo headset, one for each of you. Cost is 20-something bucks each. It filters background noises, it keeps your convos private, it allows for hands-free--it's been a lifesaver for me, especially with a lot of construction around me.

We didn't really come up with a way to prevent it in the future, well not yet anyway.  I mean, it's not really that either of us avoided it.  The conversation just didn't go in that direction.  Like neither of us said, "Hey lets do this." 

But today there was definitely a change in the way he talks to me.  I used to wake up to these sweet messages every night.  Sometimes it was something he wrote.  Sometimes it was something he found online somewhere.  But there was almost always something really nice and loving waiting for me when I woke up.  But recently I've been walking up to a long text that is basically, "Let me tell you all the reasons my life sucks.  This happened.  And then this happened.  And now this is happening.  And everything sucks.  And I'm miserable." 

Last night this is what I woke up to, copied and pasted  (He didn't write it himself.  This is a quote from someone else.) "Love is friendship that has caught fire. It is quiet understanding, mutual confidence, sharing and forgiving. It is loyalty through good and bad times. It settles for less than perfection and makes allowances for human weaknesses."  And once again... just like he has for years, he always knows exactly what to say.  I swear, he has some kind of psychic ability or something, lol.  And we didn't talk about negative things today.  He told me he was planning on making homemade pasta sauce last night, etc.  He also told me today that one of the things he loves the most about me is that I'm never afraid to be honest. 

The guilt I was feeling was like 10% about my past and 90% about him.  Idk man...  the fact that I made him cry just really... REALLY ate away at me.  And it's not like I've never seen him cry before.  I was there on NYE when his skunk passed away.  And I saw him cry once before we were even dating because he was dealing with some really bad anxiety and I was someone he felt safe confiding in.  But those other times I wasn't the cause of it.  And he was really trying hard to hide it on the phone because he probably knew that would get to me. 

You're right about him being aware of the issue, etc.  He didn't make excuses or deny it or anything.  He basically said, "You're right.  I'm sorry."  I forget what philosopher said it, but someone wise once said, "Without tragedy man would never evolve."  Something close to that.  I don't know the exact quote.  If I didn't speak up this would have just continued until one day when I just would have said, "Know what?  You're on your own.  I can't do this anymore."  And then we both would have been heartbroken. 

Thanks for the headset recommendation.  Yea the background noise when he has me on speaker is awful.  I was on the phone with him pretty recently when he was doing the dishes and I actually had to end the call sooner than I normally would because every noise was so loud.  The water running, the clanging around of silverware, etc.  When he calls me when he's driving, I hear other cars passing him.  If someone honks or there's a police siren, it's really loud. 

Well, now it's time to sleep.  I have SFM this weekend to prep for.  Thank you for your reply.  🙂

[Batya33]

I so strongly believe in friendship caught on fire -it's - delicious like homemade pasta sauce!

[Cherylyn]

7 hours ago, Cynder said:

I'm really not trying to debate and say texting is better because I don't think it is.  But one good thing I suppose about arguing in text is you have to think about what you're saying before saying it.  It's so easy to blurt stuff out in the heat of the moment that you regret later.  While texting you have to actually type that out and hit send.  I have typed out things and unsent them because when seeing it in writing I decided it's better to not say that. 

Part of our problem is we don't see each other as often as we want to.  We live an hour away from each other and I don't drive.  (I can't because I'm legally blind in both eyes.  Getting my license isn't an option.)  And he is having some real financial problems right now and gas is expensive.  Sometimes we go a month (ocasionally even longer) without seeing each other.  We talk every day, though.  We are both busy people, too.  I work full time and I also own a business on top of that.  He doesn't actually have one single full time job.  He has a lot of part time/temp jobs.  He works on remodel crews.  He cleans out houses where the owner died or the house was foreclosed on, etc.  He is a groundskeeper for a large office park in the warm months.  He works security at festivals.  His landlord pays him to do various stuff at all the properties he owns, etc.  We both work a lot and don't have a ton of down time.  I'm not trying to make excuses because we want to see each other more.  Adulting gets in the way sometimes. 

I know I couldn't handle being his constant supporter for a long time.  This became a thing recently.  I've known him since 2017 And even when we were friends, somehow he always knew exactly what to say to make me feel better whenever I was upset about anything.  And now I feel like I can't do the same for him and that's why I told him I feel like I'm failing him.  I know nothing can just make depression go away.  But after knowing him for almost 6 years I know he's not always like this. 

Then just be completely honest and truthful with him.  Tell him that you are appreciative and grateful for all the moral support he gave you during your time of need.  However,  you are very sorry that you cannot return the favor for him.  Tell him you are incapable of doing for him what he did for you.  You can say this since you speak to him on the phone daily.  You can text him but be prepared because texting can end up being more challenging than saying it on the phone verbally.  You can tell him how you feel without any excuses whatsoever. 

[catfeeder]

On 4/26/2023 at 8:00 AM, Cynder said:

We didn't really come up with a way to prevent it in the future, well not yet anyway. 

I hear, and that's really beside the point. You did the healthy and productive thing by turning this into a "How can WE..." discussion rather than the accusatory stuff most people default into, "YOU always, YOU never... " Good job!

Quote

...But today there was definitely a change in the way he talks to me.  ... "Love is friendship that has caught fire. ..." 

Great! He responded to your point in the way it was intended, and he gets it. He is stepping UP, and that's likely more helpful to him than you may have even realized in that moment. 

As for feeling guilty, that's a point to raise and target with your therapist. Not because it's 'wrong,' but consider this. While I get that you've grown a degree of stoicism from having been brutalized throughout your life, that can make crying rare enough to signal a much bigger deal than it actually is to most people. Crying is often tender. It's not always about pain, and when it is, it can be about a 'good' pain--a 'gift' of the kind of pain that prompts change.

I'm not minimizing the depth of anything you or D have felt, but rather, I'm raising that your ability to learn respectful negotiation skills can likely also translate into appreciating that not all emotional fallout is necessarily 'bad'. Sometimes it's just the release we need, and it can even be healing.

[Cynder]

10 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

I hear, and that's really beside the point. You did the healthy and productive thing by turning this into a "How can WE..." discussion rather than the accusatory stuff most people default into, "YOU always, YOU never... " Good job!

Great! He responded to your point in the way it was intended, and he gets it. He is stepping UP, and that's likely more helpful to him than you may have even realized in that moment. 

As for feeling guilty, that's a point to raise and target with your therapist. Not because it's 'wrong,' but consider this. While I get that you've grown a degree of stoicism from having been brutalized throughout your life, that can make crying rare enough to signal a much bigger deal than it actually is to most people. Crying is often tender. It's not always about pain, and when it is, it can be about a 'good' pain--a 'gift' of the kind of pain that prompts change.

I'm not minimizing the depth of anything you or D have felt, but rather, I'm raising that your ability to learn respectful negotiation skills can likely also translate into appreciating that not all emotional fallout is necessarily 'bad'. Sometimes it's just the release we need, and it can even be healing.

I really hope he knows he can still come to me when bad things happen.  But I'm pretty sure he does.  His landlord hired him to cut down a few trees and clear some shrubs and stuff out of someone's yard.  And while doing this he cut his arm and it got infected.  So he spent last night in the ER and now has cellulitis.  He was texting me last night and today about it.  So he still feels comfortable telling me when bad things are happening, etc.  But I don't only want to hear about the bad stuff.  Especially when something positive happens in my life and he is the first person I tell usually.  

The guilt I was feeling shows evolution if nothing else.  When I was younger and angry at someone, there was just no limit to the things I would say.  I remember my sister had a boyfriend she really cared about who dumped her when he started hanging out with a group of stoners and started getting high a lot.  Her and I got into an argument around that time and she said something about my then bf being a loser or something and I said, "Yea well at least he didn't pick weed over me!"  I still remember the look on her face when I said it.  She just crumbled.  And I was proud of myself.  I made my ex husband cry once and it was the same thing.  I really thought I accomplished something because "well he deserves it.  He's a liar and a cheater."  Idk man... there was just no limit to how cruel I could be when I was really mad at someone. 

But now, the fact that I made him cry was one of the things I kept fixating on.  Hearing his voice break on the phone was something I couldn't get out of my head.  And knowing he was trying to hide it from me just made me feel worse. Yea, emotion isn't always a bad thing and it's usually a release.  I hope he experienced some release from that too.