Are we still just friends? Or are we less?

[ThatwasThen]

Yes, I am not sure that I want to "go beyond" friendship - a short-term approach is the only sensible way to look at this, especially given her candidness about going with the flow, and, about how she is able to draw in countless men, at will, to do her bidding, without needing to give anything in return.

Well, she's giving something in return, she's making you all feel important with her oversharing which, I'm sure, is her intent. Afterall when you feel important and you have a chemical reaction to her (apparent) vulnerability, she gets what she needs from you and the other "countless" men she's drawn into her web.

 

She's also candid enough to admit that she has broken several hearts on account of ill-matched expectations, and that she couldn't care less.

How charming of her. Such a minx.

 

She says she watches women (out of curiosity) when she is walking on the road, but not the men - she couldn't be less bothered about the men, and yet all the men watch her.

Well, women appear to be the competition and I wouldn't be surprised if other women pick up on that and that is why many women "don't like her." (or her type). I think mostly because so many men fall under the spell that her type conjures.

 

But being able to speak with her openly and have a honest response from her to just about any question - is something that I find quite charming.

Yes, of course you do. Marilyn Monroe comes to mind.

 

The only thing I can suggest is to keep yourself well aware of the web she weaves and don't be one of those "countless men" that she manipulates without care... even if she finds you intriguing for doing so. She has you introducing her to your network of associates and helping her through a couple of "crisis's" already so she's getting from you, as I've said, things she can't do or is to lazy to do on her own. Don't fall into the trap of being her personal saviour. That's a unhealthy place to cement yourself into.

 

Cheers.

[bluecastle]

Ah, yes, I thought I was smelled the perfume of Older Dude & Younger Lass. No judgement. I know it well.

 

Not to reduce your epic to the Twitter version, but it's all pretty clear. Everything you're saying about her, especially the stuff you find compelling, can to my eyes be reduced to: she's 25.

 

Not saying all 25 year olds are this, but this one is, playing the minx-card for a bit, a rite of passage for many youngsters in the early days of adulthood in a city like New York. She's hot, quick, interested in some intellectual frou-frou and some spiritual woo-woo, with men used as a mirror to validate it all. Not sure how long you've been in town, or what parts of town you've been spending time in, but in my day (not long ago) this sort of thing was hardly a unicorn. More like the norm, easy enough to find at a coffee shop on Bedford Ave, that vintage bookstore on St. Marks. Ah, memories...

 

Were you invisible to such women when you were 25? Guess I'm just trying to understand the specific draw to this one, in your mid-30s. Or is it that you struggle with the other kind of woman of whom there is no shortage in New York, the 30something intellectual powerhouse whose minx-like days are behind her, stories laughed about over cheese and pinot, or who never bothered with those days because she had bigger fish to fry? They won't give you the same gossamer chase, or the adrenaline shot of feeling like an Accomplished Man, but they've got real depths, not just the aspirational version that gets watered down by turning everything into batted eyelashes and validation.

 

At the end of the day, I think your infatuation with her says more about where you are, today, than it does about her. She's as much a vessel of self-improvement and self-escape for you as you are for her, but those nine years present a critical difference. This is her youth. She may giggle at the nymph she was when she's 34, but do you think that giggling will be in the cottage you two share when you're 43? Be careful not to get too hung up on that story. There is only one of her in your life, but as she's made clear to you there are plenty of yous in hers.

[ThatwasThen]

There is only one of her in your life, but as she's made clear to you there are plenty of yous in hers.

... Indeed! ...

 

You're correct in that there is no active play at serious manipulation or deception

Well, I'll give you that there is no active play at deception but there certainly is in manipulation, that or you do have that White Knight Syndrome I alluded to earlier when I warned you not to let her weave you into a web of doing her bidding (or using you to advance whatever agenda she has.) Frankly, I suspect if you stopped introducing her to contacts and stopped bailing her out of her crisis's, she'd soon enough fade on you. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I read the story you've painted of her.

[simple cure]

Wow, this thread is such a treat. I'm enjoying the correct spelling, air of intelligence and academia. And everything about it, I think you all made my day.

I agree in advance, I have a boring life.

[Rose Mosse]

Thank you so much. You're correct in that there is no active play at serious manipulation or deception from her side. She is dominating, and would like me to do things for her, and is clear in her ask and expectations, she doesn't try to indirectly nudge me into doing something.

 

In fact, she admitted to me that she was somewhat deceptive in her 2 long-term relationships ( her current partner, soon to be ex, is her classmate on campus who is now long distance, and she had a long term relationship with a high school sweetheart earlier that she had through college). And that she has reflected on how she deceived these two people (a little bit) and would like to have more candid and open conversation going forward.

 

Infact, she has admitted that her psychology classes have helped her understand the value of honest communication, and that, honest communication is what she now seeks to do in her interactions - by being honest about who she is, what she is planning, what she is seeking.

 

I find her honest communication to be very attractive - no one is perfect, and neither is she. But being able to speak with her openly and have a honest response from her to just about any question - is something that I find quite charming.

 

I hope you don't mind me saying this but your bar is pretty low. Honest communication is something decent human beings generally engage in so the idea that this person is awarding you this type of communication or engagement after three years of back and forth sexual chemistry and friendship seems a a bit like scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's existed this way for this long and you've gotten used to this very, very low level affirmation or gratification from knowing her. I don't think anyone has to take psychology lessons to understand that honesty is required in real life. I understand what you mean by finding it rewarding seeing someone grow. I'm just not very sold on the idea of her being a partner in the great ups and downs of life, if you get my drift.

 

She's just naive and sheltered, a little bratty even, for her requests and expectations of you. Like I mentioned, I don't see anything beyond that. She's an overgrown child, unfortunately. If you feel comfortable with that, I don't think it's anyone's place to tell you to cut her off or stop communicating with her.

 

I'm just wondering why you've placed your bar so low and what's holding you back from looking for far greater connections or women/peers more on your level.

[bluecastle]

Well, I'll give you that there is no active play at deception but there certainly is in manipulation, that or you do have that White Knight Syndrome I alluded to earlier when I warned you not to let her weave you into a web of doing her bidding (or using you to advance whatever agenda she has. Frankly, I suspect if you stopped introducing her to contacts and stopped bailing her out of her crisis's, she'd soon enough fade on you. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I read the story you've painted of her.

 

I'm seeing the same subtext in this painting.

 

In you—in, really, men—she gets greased rails toward adult realms that would require some real patience and pavement-pounding were it not for lucky draw from the DNA lottery. Quite transactional, and if she's as smart as you say she'll be crushing it, without the need for the minx-stuff, when the clock strikes 30 or so.

 

Sadly, in this dynamic, you and the others become collateral damage on the path toward ascension. To truly own it herself, and embrace it, she'll have to lose the scaffolding. Doesn't go with the new look. For that she'll need a 34 year old accomplished academic with boyband hair, and you'll be in your mid 40s.

 

So just know what you're getting out of this, right now, and also maybe take note of what you'e not. Then place those weights on the scale, and see which way it tips. I was your age five minutes ago, yet two weeks ago I turned 40. Time: funny stuff. Use it wisely.

[NycGuy2019]

I just can't for the life of me imagine how this person would contribute to my life if I were in your position.

 

If a person can discuss, at some length, ballet, opera, literature and politics and philosophy with me regularly, I will find that person to be quite interesting. If that person were in my life in a significant way, that would be a welcome proposition.

She is a person with several hues, and she exists at multiple levels. I actually don't find her to be frivolous and she does destroy the stereotype of the somewhat unintelligent doe-eyed beauty. In fact, that stereotype is a driving force for her to go all out and achieve and succeed on her terms, even though she is the first person to say that she is not a feminist.

 

Thank you for your advice, it is appreciated and I am trying my best to answer the questions/half-questions raised in some of the posts.

[NycGuy2019]

In you—in, really, men—she gets greased rails toward adult realms that would require some real patience and pavement-pounding were it not for lucky draw from the DNA lottery. Quite transactional, and if she's as smart as you say she'll be crushing it, without the need for the minx-stuff, when the clock strikes 30 or so.

All fair points, when you bring in the age dimension. However, do consider the following to even out your analysis -

 

I think it's only fair to say that she is 25, but in terms of awareness and exposure and experience, she's probably touching 35.

 

She competed nationally in ballet, competed nationally in lacrosse, was a globally ranked merit student in some international school certificate exam.

 

She reads a book a week (her parents are professors), is really wealthy and so had many more and diverse experiences than the average Jane at her age. She reads a philosophy journal regularly. Plus the podcasts (yes, a millennial thing)

 

She's been intimate with several men, has been in long term relationships with 2, has turned down scores more, has fended off hatred from women, has fended off attraction and love-interest from women so inclined and has done serious fashion modeling, including semi-nude modelling, commercially. She paints - okayish. She designs- quite well. Her favorite place to be is a modern art gallery.

 

Despite all her accomplishments/conquests, her color is gray and she is enthralled by the tragic. She takes to tragedy like few people do. That in itself requires a fair level of sophistication, else one would end up with a happy-go-lucky mindset. She talks of things like focusing on 'what is my eulogy vs what is my resume'.

 

I would not completely dismiss her as a regular 25 year old unsophisticated minx trying to milk me for some wisdom that I may apparently possess.

[NycGuy2019]

I am sure she appreciates you and you intrigued her being reserved not falling for her charms and an obvious beauty.

During the last three years you got closer. Both of you went through different relationships and I think you somehow thought that your friendship with her is stronger than these relationships until she met the last man.

Maybe that's is why you are feeling that the dynamic between has changed.

If I were you, I would just backed off and let her get own with her man. If she will feel that you are getting invested, wondering what's the current status of your friendship etc, she most probably pull away.

I think you both are working well if you are both a little bit out of reach for each other.

Very well written thread by the way.

 

Thank you for kind words. I am glad you got something out of this thread. Probably the only good ending here is that you and some other readers might inspire me to write a novel!

 

Yes, staying detached and actively putting some distance between us is the way to do, though I should be honest enough to admit that I find her to be far more interesting and attractive as a person in 2019, thanks simply to her self-realisation and journey towards self-improvement.

 

I am big, big believer in giving second and third chances to people and in ignoring some commonplace flaws that most people have ( in some shape or measure), and, I find this situation almost to be a test for my beliefs - given what she was in 2016 and 2017, and how far she has come in 2019, would I be able to give this new 2019 version a chance - at something - perhaps an enduring friendship, perhaps less, perhaps more? That question has me intrigued.

 

She doesn't know that I have this perspective on second/third chances, by the way.

[NycGuy2019]

....

....

The only thing I can suggest is to keep yourself well aware of the web she weaves and don't be one of those "countless men" that she manipulates without care... even if she finds you intriguing for doing so. She has you introducing her to your network of associates and helping her through a couple of "crisis's" already so she's getting from you, as I've said, things she can't do or is to lazy to do on her own. Don't fall into the trap of being her personal saviour. That's a unhealthy place to cement yourself into.

Cheers.

She's independently wealthy, from a well-connected family and has gone to the right school and has membership at the right clubs. I am not going to be foolish enough to assume that my introductions are a significant draw for her. I think what she appreciates is that the introduction is to a professionally competent person, and, is being made by a professionally competent person.

 

There is no shortage of people, especially men, and, especially, old retired men, wanting to help her handle her crises either. The reason why she is drawn to me, is that I don't use the crisis as a tool to plant myself into her life -- I continue to practice detachment and have given her authentic advice that focuses on what is best for her in the crisis.

 

In short, I don't use a weak moment in her life to make her dependent on me. She has asked me why I don't do so, and my answer to her (and others) has been - I don't want to be someone's compromise when they are weak. I want to be someone's active and conscious choice when they are strong. I don't want to force someone to share their highs with me simply because they are choosing to share their lows with me.

[NycGuy2019]

...

 

Well, I'll give you that there is no active play at deception but there certainly is in manipulation, that or you do have that White Knight Syndrome I alluded to earlier when I warned you not to let her weave you into a web of doing her bidding (or using you to advance whatever agenda she has.) Frankly, I suspect if you stopped introducing her to contacts and stopped bailing her out of her crisis's, she'd soon enough fade on you. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I read the story you've painted of her.

 

Nicely put and well-written. Appreciate the White Knight Syndrome point. That doesn't apply here since I am, normally, quite a compassionate person, and, have used my God/DNA lottery granted skills to help several people. At present, I am assisting 3-5 people in various ways on their respective journeys. So, I am not exclusively focused on trying to save her/ redeem her with the power of my "love" -- as a White Knight would.

 

In fact, having helped/assisted/guided several people in their respective moments of crisis, I can see that she is no drama queen. I handled a drama queen last month, who came into my life out of the blue since she was so so needy and had somehow figured out that I could be her saviour. I handled this drama queen with detachment as well, and was able to offer constructive advice that she was willing to bite into a bit. This drama queen eventually did things her own way with some tweaks based on what I had suggested, and it worked out well for her. The drama queen experience was exhausting and borderline toxic for me, and so, I am quite capable of assessing how much a drama queen the "heroine" of this post is.

 

But, fair warning, and I shall be careful.

[NycGuy2019]

I hope you don't mind me saying this but your bar is pretty low. Honest communication is something decent human beings generally engage in so the idea that this person is awarding you this type of communication or engagement after three years of back and forth sexual chemistry and friendship seems a a bit like scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's existed this way for this long and you've gotten used to this very, very low level affirmation or gratification from knowing her. I don't think anyone has to take psychology lessons to understand that honesty is required in real life. I understand what you mean by finding it rewarding seeing someone grow. I'm just not very sold on the idea of her being a partner in the great ups and downs of life, if you get my drift.

 

She's just naive and sheltered, a little bratty even, for her requests and expectations of you. Like I mentioned, I don't see anything beyond that. She's an overgrown child, unfortunately. If you feel comfortable with that, I don't think it's anyone's place to tell you to cut her off or stop communicating with her.

 

I'm just wondering why you've placed your bar so low and what's holding you back from looking for far greater connections or women/peers more on your level.

 

 

This post speaks to me at so many levels. Thank you, stranger, for writing these lines.

You are so right in your wise assessment that I have a low bar for honest communication - which should be commonplace in any enduring relationship.

 

Unfortunately, while I have been lucky with many things, honest communication is something that I have usually not experienced. I don't get honest communication from my parents, I don't get honest communication from other close family members.

And, I had one major, significant relationship with a girl, that, unfortunately, lacked honest communication, but I was blind enough to not spot that clearly.

 

So, honest communication that too from a person that is outside my immediate circle, is a huge draw for me. That is just how the cookie crumbles for me, unfortunately.

 

I am glad that you, and many others, seem to have sufficient honest communication in their lives, so much so, that they take honest communication for granted. I am happy for all such people - do treasure your sources of honest communication!

[bluecastle]

However, do consider the following to even out your analysis -

 

You have, in this poster, someone who is immune to such analysis.

 

Background, so my projections are transparent and you don't feel all alone under the microscope: I was, once upon a time, a precious youngster in New York. A little teenage/20something rocket of ambition and romanticized tragedy who'd been abandoned by daddy, quoting Camus here, walking downstairs on my hands there—because, prior to NYC, I was a competitive gymnast at a high level. I know these worlds too well to be bowled over by an ex-ballerina who can read a book, has known the bartenders at the Venice Biennale since she was 14, and can deploy the word "eulogy" with a mischievous grin. That's artifice, not depth. Sequins, not sincerity. At least to these eyes.

 

And at 25? I was a tadpole. A tadpole with a knack for language who'd found some success in a creative field, but: tadpole. She is a tadpole. Everyone, at 25, is a tadpole, except to people who are between 18 and 28. Wealthy parents, older lovers, an appreciation for Sylvia Plath, an awareness of psychological damage, and a wounded confessional streak doesn't change that; in fact, some of it reinforces it.

 

Time is what changes that—and even time doesn't kill the tadpole in some. The person you're describing is a prime candidate for someone who might remain a tadpole longer than most. It's one of the downfalls that can come with being hot, for both genders. You don't have to grow much to get a lot—until, well, you do. That's the stuff of real tragedy, but I digress...

 

Point being? When I hear "she's probably touching 35" I hear what older men have been saying about younger women they find compelling for millennia: "Oh, but she's way more mature than her age." It's said in Ivy League libraries and Deep South auto-body shops. It's a rationalization for juvenile infatuation—and, well, it's condescending. I've heard it out of my mouth too—have to frame it for the friends when the date takes a bathroom break, you know?—so I hope you don't feel under the gun.

 

Still, no woman on the planet wants to be seen, at least for long, in the way you see her. Do note, for instance, the fact that you just gave her an A+ for reading? In explaining what makes her wise and worldly you took on the tone of a parent proud of their child.

 

That tone is dominant here, and might be worth reflecting on. You want to be a mentor to someone? Cool. I do that here and there, speaking in classrooms, taking some people "under my wing" for stretches. But the psychosexual component? Well, that sullies the genuine quality of the mentorship, while sullying a lot of what could be genuine here. I'd honestly feel better if you guys were at least having sex for years, as a part of me worries that this quasi-sexual thing with her has become a sub-in for the gritty glory of actual, genuine sexual and romantic connection in your life.

 

In being so many things at once, it's kind of thin, no? Lots of thirst, little quench.

 

Anyhow, she's interesting to you, and she is providing you with something you need right now. All good. The precious damsel is a compelling type: Eloise in the hotel, with some sass. I just hope your emotional bandwidth isn't getting too fried by this—that there is room, and openness, for a mode of deeper connection. She's not quite a friend, not quite a lover, not a future partner, is what I'm saying, so I hope those boxes in your life are getting filled elsewhere, and that those that are empty aren't being filled by her. In those boxes, she's invisible ink, thinks I.

[Hollyj]

OP, I am really confused with your thread. You have gone into great detail about this woman, and none of it was complimentary, with the exception of her looks. I don't understand why you have stayed in contact or put so much energy into her?

[Rose Mosse]

This post speaks to me at so many levels. Thank you, stranger, for writing these lines.

You are so right in your wise assessment that I have a low bar for honest communication - which should be commonplace in any enduring relationship.

 

Unfortunately, while I have been lucky with many things, honest communication is something that I have usually not experienced. I don't get honest communication from my parents, I don't get honest communication from other close family members.

And, I had one major, significant relationship with a girl, that, unfortunately, lacked honest communication, but I was blind enough to not spot that clearly.

 

So, honest communication that too from a person that is outside my immediate circle, is a huge draw for me. That is just how the cookie crumbles for me, unfortunately.

 

I am glad that you, and many others, seem to have sufficient honest communication in their lives, so much so, that they take honest communication for granted. I am happy for all such people - do treasure your sources of honest communication!

 

I see where you're coming from and I'm sorry to hear this. I think I'm starting to understand the appeal here and the idea of a safe harbour that she poses for you. She's a safer option, it seems, than others you've known in your life. Considering you've known each other for 3, 3+ years, is this the longest you've known someone in the romantic or potentially romantic sense? If so I can also see how you might feel this is a friendship or connection of some value. I can't help but wonder whether she feels and knows this vulnerability about you.

 

I think this thread is a good place for you to get things off your chest and speak out loud about this hold she has over you and your feelings for her that have grown over some time. I don't think she's a positive influence overall on your life however and I think you're inhibiting and stalling your personal growth by allowing yourself to be too encompassed by her presence or the effect she has over your life or your thoughts. This is the part that is a bit questionable to me.

 

We often see people come and go in our lives and sometimes we don't have much control over those who enter and leave, especially if they're chance friendships, work relationships or when someone leaves when a relationship ends. We do have the option though of increasing or limiting the effect that those people have on our personal lives and choosing whether or not to infuse our lives with alternate and other means of enrichment and other friendships or connections that bring greater fulfillment. In other words, we do have a choice (a personal one). They're all little and big steps in the fabric we weave called life. It's our life. This is your life. You've spent the early part of your 30s thinking about this woman off and on, wondering about her and thinking about her from afar. Are you going to spend the next years towards 40 doing the same thing?

[NycGuy2019]

OP, I am really confused with your thread. You have gone into great detail about this woman, and none of it was complimentary, with the exception of her looks. I don't understand why you have stayed in contact or put so much energy into her?

 

Thank you for pointing out that contradiction ... food for thought for me.

 

There may be a vicarious pleasure thing at play here - I have been presented an opportunity to get to know, at a deeply personal level, an attractive, edgy woman that is somewhat similar in some ways and yet so so different in many other ways.

 

And I have fallen for that temptation.

 

I need to think things through. Thank you for your advice.

[NycGuy2019]

Wow, so nicely put and elegantly written - your whole post. I needed to hear this.

Responding to a few points:

 

... deploy the word "eulogy" with a mischievous grin. That's artifice, not depth. Sequins, not sincerity. At least to these eyes. ....

.

 

I have come to the surprising conclusion that I have met/spoken with sequins all my life, having rarely met the ones with depth and sincerity - those ones are rare to start with.

I find anyone that holds out hope of having "depth" to be attractive.

I have also, in the past, been in relationships where the girl was excessively manipulative/ emotionally abusive/ simply using me - these things happened because I walked into relationships simply based on trust, and did no check/verification.

So, having been burnt a few times, I have become quite defensive - beyond a casual conversation/professional introduction, I don't put myself out there any more, and only focus on women who approach me in some way. That is a selection bias at play.

 

I need to change a few things. Thank you for offering advice to a stranger and helping me assess my situation.

[NycGuy2019]

I see where you're coming from and I'm sorry to hear this. I think I'm starting to understand the appeal here and the idea of a safe harbour that she poses for you. She's a safer option, it seems, than others you've known in your life. Considering you've known each other for 3, 3+ years, is this the longest you've known someone in the romantic or potentially romantic sense? If so I can also see how you might feel this is a friendship or connection of some value. I can't help but wonder whether she feels and knows this vulnerability about you.

 

I think this thread is a good place for you to get things off your chest and speak out loud about this hold she has over you and your feelings for her that have grown over some time. I don't think she's a positive influence overall on your life however and I think you're inhibiting and stalling your personal growth by allowing yourself to be too encompassed by her presence or the effect she has over your life or your thoughts. This is the part that is a bit questionable to me.

 

We often see people come and go in our lives and sometimes we don't have much control over those who enter and leave, especially if they're chance friendships, work relationships or when someone leaves when a relationship ends. We do have the option though of increasing or limiting the effect that those people have on our personal lives and choosing whether or not to infuse our lives with alternate and other means of enrichment and other friendships or connections that bring greater fulfillment. In other words, we do have a choice (a personal one). They're all little and big steps in the fabric we weave called life. It's our life. This is your life. You've spent the early part of your 30s thinking about this woman off and on, wondering about her and thinking about her from afar. Are you going to spend the next years towards 40 doing the same thing?

 

 

Wow, what an observation. Yes, at 3+ years , this is indeed the longest that I have known someone in a potentially romantic/flirtatious sense. And that reality is bothering me, forcing me to ignore the "go with the flow" and try to figure out what is going on/ what this means and if this is what I want. Part of the reason why I am here on this forum, is this concern/bother with the duration of this interaction (won't call it a relationship).

 

I have spoken with her about this - the fact that she has been a constant presence in my life for 3+ years and vice versa, is not something to be ignored. We need to recognise that we have both given time and space to this interaction and that we now need to consciously shape the trajectory of this interaction in a way that is acceptable to both of us. My suggestion has been to end a few things/rituals/interactions that we currently have, and thus create space for other possibilities.

 

If done amicably, we may be able to continue to be a small, positive presence in each other's lives. That is, possibly, the best case outcome. Despite being a sucker for honest communication, and despite the attractiveness of a potential bond based on our common interests, I recognise that the most likely outcome is that we go about our somewhat parallel lives, in a less intertwined fashion.

 

I have suggested this 'consciously shape' approach to her, with the re-assurance that we will do what is best for her. Her immediate response has been to acknowledge that my approach to handling relationships is refined/sophisticated and worth emulating. Her drawn out response has been to flood me with personal information of a really really intimate kind, that actually deepens the bond between us, instead of letting us do a kind of 'conscious uncoupling' that has become fashionable amongst married couples.

 

I tested her further, by showing her a promising job opening in a good company that I have been approached for, that will be based either in Montreal or Amsterdam, requiring me to move out of NYC. I did this because, she had earlier told me that she would prefer not to live in a city that one of her ex-lovers live in. She's had 2 solid long term relationships in NYC, and she now avoids going to those parts of NYC where those 2 relationships played out.

 

So, my moving out of NYC would be a great way to end things from her perspective, even though we are not lovers at all. Her instantaneous, spontaneous reaction was to say that she would follow me to either place, a response that I was simply not expecting. What this tells my gray, sceptic mind, is that this is not love being expressed, but that she has a dependence of some kind on me that this job opening conversation has triggered her to express in a moment of spontaneous candor.

 

Of course, there is a day-dream/part-saviour, part-redemption, part-phoenix and part vanity version to how this tale ends - and enough writers have posted warning signs about that on this thread already.

[Wiseman2]

You seem quite smitten, why haven't you tried to date her rather than just put her on a pedestal?

[NycGuy2019]

You seem quite smitten, why haven't you tried to date her rather than just put her on a pedestal?

 

Fair point. I am quite detached in general. I was shy and also, dating other women earlier, plus I didn't really like the 2016/2017 versions. The person in 2019 is definitely attractive on account of her reflection and honest communication, which is a big draw for me. I also cannot deny the social proof/ social validation that comes from having a hugely attractive person in one's personal sphere. I may never again have an opportunity to have someone like her in my orbit - and that is a dark temptation, I admit.

 

However, at this point in time, the rational part of my mind is telling me to "consciously uncouple" and make space for other possibilities.

[bluecastle]

I wonder if there’s a way in which you ascribe false depth or currency to surfaces, to protect yourself a bit. All the intellectual, reflective stuff: literature, philosophy, art, culture, meditation—all that, really, is just taste, sequins. It’s not really any deeper (or shallower) than pro sports, beer, improv comedy, macrame, whatever. Just stuff people are into, to get through the days, pay bills and find shreds of meaning. Me? I’m into a bit of all of that, but I don’t think any of that is what the people I’m close to place much value in. I certainly don’t.

 

Point being, there are some awesome people who are into existential literature and French new wave—as well as a lot of non-awesome people. Ditto beer and macrame. Is she awesome? Hard to see, from what you’re offering. Is she an awesome influence for you, at this juncture in your journey? Hard to see that, too.

 

You can go down paths of talking about “consciously shaping” and “consciously uncoupling,” but I can’t help but see all that as more of the same: simulacrum depth, intellectual bicep curls, another pop-psych pop quiz, sequins, even drama and games posturing as something more holy. New strange knots created, and tightened, to replace old strange knots. Meanwhile, 34 becomes 36 becomes 40. It’s a bit like trying to improve your abs by talking about sit-ups, or reading about sit-ups, rather than doing something that uses your abdominal muscles more intensely, and changing your diet here and there.

 

Dynamics between people—romantic, platonic, flirtatious, vague, whatever—are basically a series of interconnected habits. You change them not through suggestions but by breaking habits, and forming new ones. As in: you can just distance yourself from her, a bit, rather than trying to shape her and shape this you-her thing into something. Then be in that place, while observing. Small shifts occur. Scales level. Some emotions fade out, new emotions fade in. You feel a little more lonesome, while also feeling a little lighter, more you. You discover what is genuine, even if what is genuine is just a cursory friendship that was once something else. Or whatever.

 

Make sense?

 

There is a tipping point—one I’m intimately familiar with—where the “social validation” of a having a pretty thing stops validating what you think it does. You become “that guy”—the one with the fluttery thing in orbit as others explore wilder galaxies. So even if you’re hung up on the purely superficial component about this, on what you bring to the proverbial dinner party, recognize that it’s an outfit that loses its shine, in time, and roughly speaking I’d say 35 is a juncture where you start seeing people go down one path or the other.

 

My personal currency of value is genuineness. That maybe wasn’t the case when I was young, and sought out people who were living versions of dreams in my mind. As I realized some of those dreams—pin that at 22, for me—I didn’t need people as proxies, and just wanted good friends. Romance is a bit more confusing, because, alas, hopes and hormones make for a spicy stew. But it followed a similar arc: some nonsense here, some richness there, sometimes mistaking the latter for the former as the compass became more focused.

 

I think, maybe, she has been good for your own compass—but perhaps part of that goodness needs to be realized by stepping away a bit? Not talking about it, or suggesting it, but just a few new steps to bring about a sense of clarity. You sound ready, to me, to move beyond sequins—a beautiful moment in life, and if this has led you to that moment it means it has been of real value.

[ThatwasThen]

Her drawn out response has been to flood me with personal information of a really really intimate kind, that actually deepens the bond between us, instead of letting us do a kind of 'conscious uncoupling' that has become fashionable amongst married couples.

Of course she's stepped up her 'draw' because you've hinted at taking away her use of you.

 

I'm sorry but the more you explain the more I see you addicted to her "personal sharing" that makes you feel much more bonded to her than you should be considering that nothing of romantic interaction has even come close.

 

Check your ego at the door and please start looking at this with eyes wide open rather than eyes wide shut.

 

At this point, it appears that your enthralment of her is holding you back in heart and mind from finding yourself a good woman that wants you for more than your career connections, your shoulder to cry on the and esoteric/philosophical discussions. Don't you think you should be putting in all this effort towards someone who will want you for all of you and not just this superficial relating of a platonic kind that has you so in a tizzy? Next you'll be writing about the vapors you've experienced when she's shared, yet again, TMI considering you're not actually a couple. Her "sharing" isn't what I would consider normal under the circumstances but she knows that it keep you glued to her.

 

I truly believe that she gets off on her ability to draw and keep men within her web of intrigue. She is well aware of her feminine wiles and how to surround a willing 'victim' in the soft folds of her psyche.

[bluecastle]

TwT has the microscope dialed in right now.

 

Thing about your manic pixie dream girl, like many at that age? She can take a certain kind of comfort in the idea that, later, once she really grows up, all this juvenilia will be looked back on as a phase. She will turn 30 in around two million years, at least according to her Apple Watch, so no need to chuck the roller-skates tomorrow. Yes, she'll entertain talks of "consciously shaping" and the like, but it's more entertainment than anything, like a kid who is precious with numbers engaging in a chat with a grownup about tax returns: adult stuff that is interesting because the adults are still the ones handling it. The precious number cruncher is, come dusk, still playing video games while dad does the HELOC deductibles.

 

Who will she actually be at 30, at 35? Verdict is still out, total unknown. She is certainly devoting an enormous amount of energy into a certain cat-and-mouse transactional dynamic with men, just as you are a man devoting an enormous amount of energy to enabling that dynamic. I can see what this gets her, since she can sort of have whatever she wants right now: you play this role, another guy plays another, and all those pieces make for some kind of curious puzzle in which emotional, intellectual, and sexual needs are met. Pollyanna polyamory. Fine. But what do you get in exchange for the piece of that puzzle you provide? Not quite a friend, not a romantic parter, certainly not orgasms—more like shadow puppets of all that.

 

The ego can get off on watching shadows on the wall for a long, long time. Your ego, with her, exists in a multi-orgasmic state, by the sounds of it. Were you to "check" it, per TwT, what is there here, really, to keep getting off on?

[Wiseman2]

Ok, so she's sort of a muse for you?

I was shy and also, dating other women earlier, plus I didn't really like the 2016/2017 versions. The person in 2019 is definitely attractive on account of her reflection and honest communication, which is a big draw for me.

[NycGuy2019]

Ok, so she's sort of a muse for you?

There is, certainly, a small sense of wonder that I have easy access to a page-3 sort of person who is also into a,b, and c (though one of the reviewers argues that a,b,c by itself should not be a qualification) AND that, more recently, I have intimate awareness of how they behave, and at times, think.

 

An honest answer would also admit that there is some vicarious pleasure too.

 

But, until I write that novel, which I was not at all planning to write, calling her a muse would be stretching the truth.