katrina1980 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Natalie Wood story? Didn't she drown? I've read stories about her husband, actor Robert Wagner, being involved somehow, where is this podcast, can I download it? Also, who is Dr. Death? Time for Google! Link to comment
Annia Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I've just finished watching, what a binge ride! I was expecting this ending. Previous to watching the show I hadn't read the postcasts or read anything besides what some people here on ENA were saying about the podcasts and show. I also don't know how she lives with herself knowing that something terrible was about to happen to her daughter. It's one thing to get involved in this mess without daughters to take care off, but the way she put her daughters in the middle of this with a man she barely knew and ignored all the signs that he could be a threat to her and her daughters despite documented evidence, it's probably hard for someone to forgive herself. And that conversation she heard in the bathroom was probably a reminder to her of how careless she was. In the middle of the tragedy they were all very lucky. This could've end even worse. This show/podcasts (I have yet to dive into them) really warn everyone to be very careful before they jump into the arms of someone they barely know and to not ignore the signs. Getting out in the beginning before the person has financially and emotionally hold on their victim is much easier than when there's marriage, housing and children involves. His ex wife went through hell too. Actually all the women he got involved with, including his sister. BTW, the real John didn't look as charming as Eric Bana haha - https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/film-tv/a25372275/dirty-john-true-story-timeline/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-dirty-john/ Link to comment
Annia Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Natalie Wood story? Didn't she drown? I've read stories about her husband, actor Robert Wagner, being involved somehow, where is this podcast, can I download it? Also, who is Dr. Death? Time for Google! I've watched a documentary about Natalie Wood's death and about the involvement of Robert Wagner but I think they could never prove anything. Dr. Death I don't know, but might take a look to lose even more faith in mankind lol Link to comment
katrina1980 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Found the Natalie Wood podcast! Just downloaded, tnx LG! Link to comment
Seraphim Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Education and intelligence has little to do with staying or leaving abuse. It has more to due with the abuser and if there was previous abuse in a person’s life. Link to comment
Annia Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I'm also reading about the whole deal with Cindi, Debra's sister. Her husband who killed her only served 3 years in prison, all because Cindi's mother and other family members of family's victim ran to his defence and even painted Cindi in a bad light in court. He killed her daughter in the back of her head with a gun he previously got to commit the murder, and her mother is testifying to the defence of her killer, who shows signs of having been controlling and abusive to her daughter before. The mother even advised her to stay with him despite the guy going psycho and controlling. The mother seemed like a good person, but she's a big part of the problem of why Debra became so naive into believe that "love" excuses everything, even the most awful actions. Debra's mother also didn't blink an eye when Debra was bringing John to the family functions weeks after meeting him and the whole marriage mess. Link to comment
katrina1980 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I just read that Debra's sister's husband served only three years -- wow. Unbelievable, I'm utterly shocked, I had assumed a life sentence for what he did which was nothing short of premeditated first degree murder. Anyway Debra's mom -- arghh!! What's that's saying -- "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." Very true at least in this case. Link to comment
Starlight925 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 The Natalie Wood podcast has a ton more info than just about her drowning. It's 12 episodes ?, about 30 minutes each. Starts with her childhood and yes, goes into the night of the drowning, and all the questions surrounding it. I'm almost done with it. Dr. Death is a podcast series that I listened to in one sitting, maybe 4 hours. I just. Could. Not. Stop. It's a true story about one of Dallas' "best" neurosurgeons. That's all I'm going to say. O.M.G. Link to comment
Starlight925 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Education and intelligence has little to do with staying or leaving abuse. It has more to due with the abuser and if there was previous abuse in a person’s life. I've read tons online, here and in other forums, about Dirty John, but no one has summed it up as succinctly as our own dear Seraphim here. In the Dirty John podcast, while it was an amazing story, little was told about Debra's early life, who her father was, etc. I suspect there was massive abuse, possibly physical but largely emotional, on both her mother, and her & her sister (Cindi). This isn't about Debra's intelligence, success in life, etc., but more about why she came to accept this John Meehan as the love of her life, ignoring every glaring red flag she was given. He waved them loudly in her face, yet she ignored them, which begs the question....why? What was it deep within her, that masked this? Link to comment
katrina1980 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Agree LH, my only point was to illustrate how some women can be so smart and make good choices in their business lives, but so dumb and make horrible choices in their personal lives. The dichotomy is interesting to me. I suppose the explanation is in business, choices stem from logic. In our personal lives, choices tend to stem from emotion. But who knows, no doubt it runs much deeper. Not justifying, just trying to understand the dichotomy, that's all. Link to comment
Seraphim Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I don’t think it is “ dumbness” . I had a mother that endured domestic abuse. She was not dumb. Did she make unwise choices ? Sure . However, not dumb in the least incredibly far from it . A lot of factors went into her being abused but dumb wasn’t part of it . Link to comment
Annia Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I just read that Debra's sister's husband served only three years -- wow. Unbelievable, I'm utterly shocked, I had assumed a life sentence for what he did which was nothing short of premeditated first degree murder. Anyway Debra's mom -- arghh!! What's that's saying -- "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." Very true at least in this case. I was so shocked too. It was obviously premeditated murder. But he got away with only 3 years because Cindi's mother turned out on her dead daughter and defended him in court, destroying the case against him. He then accepted a plead I think to reduce to 5 years (manslaughter?) and then only served 3 I think. And if what's on the show really happened, she even visited him in prison and continued to give him support even after he was released. It really didn't fall far from the tree. Link to comment
Annia Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 The Natalie Wood podcast has a ton more info than just about her drowning. It's 12 episodes ?, about 30 minutes each. Starts with her childhood and yes, goes into the night of the drowning, and all the questions surrounding it. I'm almost done with it. Dr. Death is a podcast series that I listened to in one sitting, maybe 4 hours. I just. Could. Not. Stop. It's a true story about one of Dallas' "best" neurosurgeons. That's all I'm going to say. O.M.G. I'm so curious now to hear the Dr Death podcast! I don't usually listen to podcasts, but that seems like a good one. As to Natalie Wood, wasn't there also something about her being afraid of the water but yet her husband trying to fool everyone that she went for a swim or something? And that he took 1h or more to report to the police? Link to comment
katrina1980 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I was talking specifically about Debra's choices S -- I don't think anyone could argue her choices -- to marry him after only 8 weeks, to remain and return to him after discovering what a con he was -- were dumb! She was not dumb, her choices were dumb, there's a difference. If you don't agree S, that's ok, it's what makes this forum so interesting. Link to comment
Starlight925 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Oh Katrina, I wasn't arguing with you, but rather appreciating Seraphim's excellent 1-sentence explanation: that these women such as Debra have to have had some form of abuse in their past to accept this form of "love" as normal. It's not "dumbness". It's a deep, to childhood core, of Debra (and the other women) having lived through abuse, so this is what they know as "normal". Watch this on Oxygen to see dozens of women who were taken in by yet another "Dirty John". As I said in my earlier post about this, one woman is a teacher, one is a dermatologist, and heck, one is a nuclear scientist: https://www.oxygen.com/seduced-by-evil There has to be something in these women's pasts to have allowed them to embrace and accept this, allowing this a-hole (Derek Alldred) into their lives, their homes, their children, and yes, their finances. One woman talks about how "wonderful" he was by giving her 4 dozen roses within the first week of dating. We here at ENA knows this as a classic red flag, AKA "Lovebombing". But she was so enthralled that this "great guy" thought she was so amazing. Link to comment
figureitout23 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Education and intelligence has little to do with staying or leaving abuse. It has more to due with the abuser and if there was previous abuse in a person’s life. Disagree. This is this whole victimization thing Im speaking of. I agree education and intelligence has little to do with staying it is an utter and complete lack of self esteem at times combined with an inability to go anywhere else, history of abuse. Absuers cant just go and abuse any body, they need to find someone willing to put up with their crap. Like I was saying earlier with this Dirty John, he doesnt sound like an extraordinary man, he just knew to prey on insecure women. We as a society we dont want to face reality though, we'd rather label everything, we'd rather complicate and place blame where it doesnt belong. Not saying this guy is innocent, hes far from innocent, and I havent watched yet but it sounds like this woman has labelled herself a full blown victim instead of facing the reality that she let this man in and sacrificed everything to not appear as a 5X loser, people like her are as much a problem as these men are. Her mental health is a HUGE problem. and she just put an even bigger target on her back, she will still attract these types of men, because she hasnt faced any of her issues, she just championed herself as a victim. Supply and demand, if people didnt accept these individuals into their lives they wouldnt exist. We ignore mental health so much, we shame weakness, until we as a society stop, this has no end. Link to comment
Starlight925 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I'm so curious now to hear the Dr Death podcast! I don't usually listen to podcasts, but that seems like a good one. As to Natalie Wood, wasn't there also something about her being afraid of the water but yet her husband trying to fool everyone that she went for a swim or something? And that he took 1h or more to report to the police? Yes, Natalie Wood was deathly afraid of water! The podcast goes into this in a lot of detail, with interviews with the captain of the boat from that night. It's really interesting. Dr. Death is something you really can't describe. Truly disturbing, and quite frankly, hard to listen to. Link to comment
Annia Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I've read tons online, here and in other forums, about Dirty John, but no one has summed it up as succinctly as our own dear Seraphim here. In the Dirty John podcast, while it was an amazing story, little was told about Debra's early life, who her father was, etc. I suspect there was massive abuse, possibly physical but largely emotional, on both her mother, and her & her sister (Cindi). This isn't about Debra's intelligence, success in life, etc., but more about why she came to accept this John Meehan as the love of her life, ignoring every glaring red flag she was given. He waved them loudly in her face, yet she ignored them, which begs the question....why? What was it deep within her, that masked this? It seems that there will be a season 2. I'd like that they focused on Debra's childhood. I also spent the whole show asking myself where is the father. I'm also almost sure the father was abusive or at least contributed to this whole dynamic. I believe John was very good reading these women and figuring out their fragility and neediness and that's where he attacked, molding himself to lure them. Also, I didn't mean to imply that abuse has anything to do with intelligence or education. I think there's this stereotype that women with an apparent "all together life" don't fall for these traps or are less vulnerable because they are financially independent and have a social life. The thing is that anyone can be victim of abuse and sociopaths like this. But there are people who are more mentally equipped to jump out when they begin seeing the red flags and others don't like Debra. Link to comment
katrina1980 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I know you weren't LH, tnx, I just wanted to clarify my mindset. Link to comment
Starlight925 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 It seems that there will be a season 2. I'd like that they focused on Debra's childhood. I also spent the whole show asking myself where is the father. I'm also almost sure the father was abusive or at least contributed to this whole dynamic. I believe John was very good reading these women and figuring out their fragility and neediness and that's where he attacked, molding himself to lure them. Also, I didn't mean to imply that abuse has anything to do with intelligence or education. I think there's this stereotype that women with an apparent "all together life" don't fall for these traps or are less vulnerable because they are financially independent and have a social life. The thing is that anyone can be victim of abuse and sociopaths like this. Agree, agree, agree! I listened to the podcast, I read (most) of the original L.A. Times story that led to the podcast, and I watched the show, along with the Oxygen documentary. I spent months immersed in this story, and I had to ask myself why? Why couldn't I "put" this story down? I even re-listened to some of it. It's because I saw so much of myself in Debra Newell. Some of my early childhood stuff, which led to my romantic choices, which led to me making stupid decisions, a la Debra Newell. I'm smart, successful, reasonably attractive, have great friends and a great life.....why have I made some horrid choices? And defended those choices? I would have been an easy target for John Meehan, I'm sorry to say. It's been through a lot of work, therapy, and some ongoing stuff I'm working on, that I'm finally able to close the door on red flags as they arise. It's making me jumpy, and i don't want to swing 180 the other way: a guy brings me flowers, and I slam the door in his face, lol. But it's sure made a lot of things clearer to me. This isn't as simple as "Debra was stupid, and she should have made smarter choices". At least it's not that simple in my case. In my last relationship (I have pages of threads here if you're bored, lol), I came this close to buying us a new house and having him move in with me. He'd have broken me financially, as it turned out, much of what he wanted me for was my finances, as he turned out to be broke/in debt/lost his job so not even an income shortly after our breakup. I even went out with a real estate agent, applied for mortgages....yes, I was "that" stupid. So I am not above a Debra Newell. At 56 years old, I'm still learning. Link to comment
Annia Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Oh Katrina, I wasn't arguing with you, but rather appreciating Seraphim's excellent 1-sentence explanation: that these women such as Debra have to have had some form of abuse in their past to accept this form of "love" as normal. It's not "dumbness". It's a deep, to childhood core, of Debra (and the other women) having lived through abuse, so this is what they know as "normal". Watch this on Oxygen to see dozens of women who were taken in by yet another "Dirty John". As I said in my earlier post about this, one woman is a teacher, one is a dermatologist, and heck, one is a nuclear scientist: https://www.oxygen.com/seduced-by-evil There has to be something in these women's pasts to have allowed them to embrace and accept this, allowing this a-hole (Derek Alldred) into their lives, their homes, their children, and yes, their finances. One woman talks about how "wonderful" he was by giving her 4 dozen roses within the first week of dating. We here at ENA knows this as a classic red flag, AKA "Lovebombing". But she was so enthralled that this "great guy" thought she was so amazing. The video on the link doesn't work for me. Maybe it blocks it to people outside the US. I'll try to find it somewhere else. And I agree, people who've been subjected to some sort of abuse weather by suffering it directly or witnessing it, will tend to believe it's normal and dismiss it as wrong and dangerous. Link to comment
katrina1980 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Agree LH (your post 95), hence my post saying the reasons therefor run much deeper. Much deeper than any of us can fathom, or at least myself. I'm still learning tool! As we continue on our journeys though life, there are always new things to learn. I hope to never stop learning, even when I'm 80, if I'm lucky enough to live that long. Link to comment
Seraphim Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Things that lead to my mom’s domestic abuse : Sexually abused as kid. ( stranger in the home) Being mentally and physically abused by her mom Finding my dad and being committed to him too young( 15) Getting married too young ( 18) My dad also being a victim of sexual abuse and severe physical and mental abuse as a kid My dad’s severe mental illnesses Being told by faith and family to remain married, marriage is forever no matter what Savoir complex All of those have zero to do with her education or intelligence . My mom actually has an IQ of 135. Both my parents have high IQ’s. And one is a good person and one is an evil person. Link to comment
Jibralta Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I don't like diagnosing people since I'm not a professional, but there was some really dark disorder there. I'd say sociopath or something like that. Don't be afraid to make a judgment call like this, though. Put it in perspective. No, you're not a professional. But also, nobody is going to throw him in an insane asylum because you said he's a sociopath. Your safety needs to come first. Also, the safety of those around you is important, as well. So, if you think something is off, trust your own judgment. It might have been the first time he'd randomly attacked a stranger, but the names of a couple girls he used to date were mentioned as possible previous date-rape victims (we are from a small town, so the names were familiar to me) Nobody ever publicly came forward, though. Unfortunately, that's very typical. Women are very often vilified for "allowing themselves" to become the victims of date rape, or for seducing the man. You just need to look at some of the responses to rape threads on this board for proof of that. Or the press. So, most victims don't come forward. And so the sleazy, sneaky date rapists, like Bill Cosby, rape for years and years without being discovered. Society is on their side until they do something obvious, like outright attack someone and get their DNA sampled. This specific guy had picked up a job installing windows or some such thing after his release. The idea that this could be the guy who shows up to your home, and whom you permit inside without a second thought, disturbed me a lot. Great. He's got a job LITERALLY looking into people's homes. Coincidence? I think not. Theres a special on Ted Bundy too, Ive read recent articles too, they pointed out how Ted Bundy is seen as this mythic symbol and such a mystery and how he apparently was so charming he led these women to their death He was so charming that even arresting officers dropped their guard and allowed him to escape!! Link to comment
katrina1980 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I agree with you S, I never disagreed, to clarify again, I just find the dichotomy interesting. I'm very sorry your mom endured all that. :( Link to comment
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