Mixed signals, friend zone, and my weird email. What did I say?

[IAmFCA]

Background: We met online, got together for a number of dates February March (?), had a great weekend in April, agreed to sexual exclusivity. He is out of town for 1 - 2 weeks a month, at his 2nd home, and in April after he left he was non-responsive, he agreed and apologized, and we agreed to no relationship. He said "I realize I can't go in and out with you." And then he spent May keeping in touch with me, and in June we went out as friends, he confessed to being wildly attracted to me, I reminded him of my sexual exclusivity requirement, he admitted to having slept with one other person, and we again took sex off the table. We didn't so much as french kiss and haven't since the spring. The next day he apologized by email and phone, emphasizing his respect for me and his regret at having treated me like a piece of meat, his words. He then asked permission to join my workout group.

 

That was June, and since then, he has put me on his calendar for nearly every day he is in town, either joining my morning workout group, or asking to bring us to dinner. He pays. Always chaste. A week ago he put his arms around me as to give me a fabulous kiss, but we both kind of resisted despite ourselves. His compliments are substantive: about how I achieve physical and professional goals, raise my kids, live my values, etc etc. And about how hot I am... I am growing terribly attracted to him and really falling for him too. I finally began to feel -- like leftovers? Sunday, he came over for lunch - which he bought - but cut his visit short to go do something else. I was done. Sunday was the last occasion to see each other before he left town, and we both had an open calendar when that day began. He wont be back for 4 weeks, an unusual length of time, as he has to help move his parents out of the family home.

 

I wanted to be more important than I am, and not in the friend zone. I sent the email below. I haven't heard from him and I don't suppose I will, at least for awhile. I am not altogether sure what my email communicated to him, as I can't hear it objectively.

 

And so that is my question: what did I say? Will I ever hear from him? Here is my email

______

Sam,

 

You know what? I am not your friend. The more I know of you, the more I am attracted to you. Some friend zones let the friendship blossom, the attraction gets channeled into something more like affection without sex. Nope, not here. I'd like to have several hours of dragging you all around my apartment, which is not terribly friend like. Or maybe you dragging me. I digress... Not sure I want to teach myself not to be attracted to you. I am deciding to make that my project while you are away. (Because turning gay seems out of the question).

 

I

[LoveSoDeep]

The last thing you said was that you didn't want to teach yourself not to be attracted to him but you were going to work on it.

 

I think it clearly states that you want out of the friend zone you created but there's nothing he can do about that at the moment as he has family obligations that will keep him out of town for weeks.

 

If he's attracted to you and can deal with your exclusivity rule you'll probably hear from him. If exclusivity is something he can't do right now then he'll probably bow out.

[IAmFCA]

The last thing you said was that you didn't want to teach yourself not to be attracted to him but you were going to work on it.

 

I think it clearly states that you want out of the friend zone you created but there's nothing he can do about that at the moment as he has family obligations that will keep him out of town for weeks.

 

If he's attracted to you and can deal with your exclusivity rule you'll probably hear from him. If exclusivity is something he can't do right now then he'll probably bow out.

 

Thanks LoveSoDeep, I guess I did what I wanted then. I feel like a head case; it is very helpful to have your feedback.

 

Been casting a passing eye over ENA lately. Good luck to you...

[LoveSoDeep]

Thanks LoveSoDeep, I guess I did what I wanted then. I feel like a head case; it is very helpful to have your feedback.

 

Been casting a passing eye over ENA lately. Good luck to you...

 

It's so hard when you don't get a response. Just know that you've told him what you want and if he has any interest in going there I think he'll respond in time. If not, it might be better that he fades out now.

[j.man]

I mean, you do lay it on pretty thick, but it doesn't sound like anything that would change his mind if he were interested. In my personal opinion, you did fine, and I wouldn't spend any time kicking yourself over your choice of words.

[IAmFCA]

It's so hard when you don't get a response. Just know that you've told him what you want and if he has any interest in going there I think he'll respond in time. If not, it might be better that he fades out now.

 

Keeping your wisdom close.

[IAmFCA]

I mean, you do lay it on pretty thick, but it doesn't sound like anything that would change his mind if he were interested. In my personal opinion, you did fine, and I wouldn't spend any time kicking yourself over your choice of words.

 

Subtlety not so much my strong suit.

 

OK, this is good. Two votes for ya, the email was good enough, he gets it, move on. Thank you!

[Ms Darcy]

Kind of an odd email. NOt sure if you were pushing him away or trying to entice him in.

[IAmFCA]

Kind of an odd email. Not sure if you were pushing him away or trying to entice him in.

 

Aha a reader of my email who is as conflicted about it as I. I think both options are there. He could pick up on my attraction and respond to me with a desire to build on it (not expected, but the information is there) or he can let me pull my chips back because either He isnt ready for more (he isnt) and/or I have substantially freaked him out with my intensity.

 

Oh well. If timing is the issue and nothing else, then I will hear from him in time.

[j.man]

Kind of an odd email. NOt sure if you were pushing him away or trying to entice him in.

I'd typically agree, but I'm giving her the benefit of understanding the context better than us. Maybe for the period of time they were sexual, it was incredibly intense. And maybe since they've been meeting again, the sexual tension has been very much out in the open. For some reason, I'm getting the feeling it's not her pretty much telling him she wants to jump his bones that would push him away, but that she'd like to do it as more than a friend. In which case, I think she did alright conveying the message she wanted to convey.

[IAmFCA]

I'd typically agree, but I'm giving her the benefit of understanding the context better than us. Maybe for the period of time they were sexual, it was incredibly intense. And maybe since they've been meeting again, the sexual tension has been very much out in the open. For some reason, I'm getting the feeling it's not her pretty much telling him she wants to jump his bones that would push him away, but that she'd like to do it as more than a friend. In which case, I think she did alright conveying the message she wanted to convey.

 

He is flirtatious when we are working out, which is a group setting out in a city park, with the occasional smack on the bum when he passes me on a run, or a cheeky comment about how hot I look, or his joke that he was going to stick around to watch me jump rope before running his wind sprints (so I jumped while he was doing push ups, ha!). He is somehow frankly sexual and respectful together. He is flirtatious after he drinks two glasses of wine, such as the night he moved in with his hands around my waist. But he knows I will expect him not to sleep with anyone else, which somehow stops him from kissing me even.

 

Its freaking annoying -- why be friends with me enough to see me almost every day, even if just for a couple of hours, flirt with me except for when it could actually lead to something more intimate... choosing not to explore something further? I realized I am not being his friend, I am being someone who wants to reel him in, and that isn't honest. So, really, I am the one who needs to bow out.

[Hazyillusions]

I personally would have said something like 'this quasi friend thing we have going on is making my life quite difficult. I think we need to distance ourselves, maybe have a mental breather...? Let me know what you think.'

 

That way he has the chance to tell you what he wants.

 

But your message was quite straight forward, so I guess there are some benefits in that too .

 

 

He doesn't want commitment because he's not in the right frame of mind...And it might be because he hasn't currently met somebody that has inspired that side of him to come out.

[potd2009]

I think you said what you needed to say to learn whether he can give you what you want. The answer might be no, but at least now you'll know. Good luck - I hope he comes around and is willing to be exclusive.

[IAmFCA]

I think you said what you needed to say to learn whether he can give you what you want. The answer might be no, but at least now you'll know. Good luck - I hope he comes around and is willing to be exclusive.

 

Alright I am going to wait this out and give you guys the update if when there is one...

[professorplum]

I admire you for seizing the initiative. If I was in any way interested I would be flattered to receive a message like that. I also would not beat yourself up for sending it. I feel it is quite a hard message to respond to under the circumstances and perhaps something that needs answering face to face should he want to. You appear to have got to the point where you want / need to force the issue and that's absolutely right because it could drag on without any kind of satisfactory outcome. You just need to be patient now and prepare yourself for the fact that it may not turn out to your liking. If it doesn't however, you gave it your best shot and can walk away with your head held high. Good luck - hope it works out.

[IAmFCA]

ENAers, the update... we continue our chaste connection. He has been actively involved with one woman after another, okay, I only know of two... and trying to keep it from me, sort of. I called him out. He readily said who, what why. That he kept wanting to talk to me, and then when we're together, he just wanted to enjoy the time rather than have a serious talk. He was surprised at his own dating behavior. "I have serious commitment issues." he said. he was relieved to hear that within 1 year after divorce, dating around, having sex, not speaking ones voice... all common behaviors after being in a dysfunctional relationship.

 

he promised to make conversations happen. I promised not to send poison pen emails. I guess the one I sent a few months back stung him more than I knew.

 

about a week or two ago he went back to tend to his parents and other responsibilities. I have been practicing letting him go, sort of. I missed our morning routines and had to practice not texting him.

 

tonight, was thinking that I really missed talking to him. that going to work out tomorrow requires I find a different way to have fun.

 

and then he called me. to tell me he misses me. to tell me why it's so long before he flies here again. ( he has now told me this at least twice.) to tell me my brain is sexy. to tell me " you know you are one of my most very favorite people, right? you know that, right?" and that he has been thinking that maybe we should be developing our relationship physically as well as emotionally.

 

I admit I have been on the precipice of falling for this man. and I think about his shortcomings. I think about others' strengths-( well, one other). I try try try to diminish him in my own eyes.

 

must continue to be thoughtful. I do not know if he is capable. I do know he will take his involvement with me very seriously.

 

so yes, I have been in sort of a friend zone, one he defends as recognition that his behavior was not predictable. "I didn't go there" he says. and now he is considering it. I am pleased.... cautious and happy both.

[iamstrong]

OP: I am very happy for you: particularly that you are following your brain and realize your worth. My concern is that he feels he has to remind you that he is not coming to your area or why it's so long before he flies here again. I would feel this is a red flag. You may have feelings for him: true. But as long as he is shagging other chippies then I would remain solidly in the FZ: for your own sake. And I hope his calling was sincere in all ways: I have a similar situation and my friend keeps in touch in hopes that I will be on pause until he gets his go-hogging out of his system. Unfortunately I don't see this as a sign or friendship or caring about me: but that is just the way I witness things. Posing this question to both of us: aren't we worth more than to sit by while our ideal men are out shagging other women? I hope this wasn't as course as other posts I may have entered.

[iamstrong]

he has been thinking that maybe we should be developing our relationship physically as well as emotionally.

 

QUOTE]

 

OP: I have heard this line as well. It is very flattering and tweaked at my heart, but he continued: continues to shag other women. I am concerned that the birdies he is in flight with are not the most respectable and am now put off by his glib way of chatter. I have doubts that, in my case, there is much respect: I am fearful for you as well. A sexy mind is a compliment, but the biggest compliment would be his ability to be uninvolved: including with you: for a significant period of time.

 

People are capable of change: but I have learned that once a runabout, always a runabout. It sounds as if both men in our collective lives are trying to maintain a connection while maintaining a randy life. Is that fair? I don't think it is and that it questions his true intent to be friends or otherwise.

[quirky]

I don't know..I think you give him more credit than he deserves or maybe you just like his compliments a lot. You come accross as a very sexual person and focusing on those comments of his and I wonder what sexuality means to you because that is what stands out the most. You had something sexually intense with another guy some months/1 year ago, no?

 

To me it just looks like a guy that just wants to have fun, he flirts and sleeps with other women, maybe he finds you very interesting and sexy too but at the end of the day he is not working towards an exclusive romantic relationship. So if I was you I would leave the whole thing altogether. Unless you wanna be friends which doesn't seem to be the case.

[IAmFCA]

Iamstrong and quirky: both good responses. Thank you.

 

Agree: I need to hold my cards while I watch his unfold. We have had some conversations on this topic of his serial dating, and he has been very conscious about not going there with me (after our initial go last Spring) out of respect for my request for exclusivity. He thinks of himself as a one-woman man, he thinks of himself as taking sex very seriously, but his actions show otherwise, which left him confused. This is a pattern I saw in myself and my friends and acquaintances after divorce, and so I am watching to see if he is coming out of that pattern. In his favor: that he has kept our relationship chaste, even early on, when he could have gotten away with two timing me for a while. Against him; that his quest for fidelity, if he has one, is so very fresh.

 

Also in his favor, he keeps his friends for decades, and they are friends and professional colleagues both. To make intimate (by that, I do not mean sex, but intimate like besties) with one's work colleagues, bosses and peers usually is a sign of authenticity and integrity. He is taking charge (has nearly concluded) looking after his mother's physical therapy, moving his parents into assisted living, selling their house and car, assisting with the final yard sale.

 

He and I are both ENTP (Myers Briggs)-- classic independent entrepreneur types who dont do very well doing one thing at a time for a long time. I may be too accepting of the fact that he is building a house to flip, running a landscaping business, day trading, working as a stock broker in my city and in his hometown... what I want may be too much stability for him. I need to find this out. He used to live here. He still has an office, colleagues, and close friends here. He reminisces about old stores and things, like I do as a native. I believe his intent to move back here in the Spring.

 

In short, I am trying to assess his character, and you both are right. If I knew, then I woudlnt be trying to aggregate the data still. I havent met his friends yet, though I expect to this Fall. I know about them and look forward to meeting them.

 

And Quirky, yes, I am and always have been a very sexual person. Since 2010, say, I have been changing rapidly (well, three years isnt so rapid, I guess). I have been diagnosed for ADHD - Inattentive Type, I have eliminated my co-dependent patterns as best as I can tell (evident in my evolving way of being friends), and I have taken charge of my physical health. In short, I have begun to value myself in a way I dont ever remember valuing myself before, and certainly not since I met my exH who validated my feelings of unworthiness.

 

I have gone 6 m or so without have any sexual contact whatsoever, I have maintained an active dating life, but am just not interested enough. I remain very sexual and very comfortable with sexuality in general. What I want is so dramatically different, so clear to me now, that I would never have even gone out even just several dates with the man that first drove me to ENA.

 

In sum: YES, I deserve to see his intentions demonstrated, not just professed -- and they haven't even been professed, and NO we should not be waiting around and I am not (nor does he expect me to be). At least, I think I am open to meeting others, it feels like I am open to meeting others and really wanting them. I just havent met anyone like this odd duck.

 

Thanks for the good minders gals!

[iamstrong]

Ithink: It appears that the "one woman man" is lying: since he is shagging two other birds that you know about. How many more might there be? His favor of having lots of chums might be good, but have you asked yourself why you haven't met them yet? This would be a big red flag. If this is a friendship that has been going on for over a month or so, I would guess these blokes know of his slap and tickle festivities: and doesn't want to his friends to blow his cover even if he is just snogging these other women. Another red flag.

 

It sounds like you will accept and make up excuses for this guy when you should really just free yourself of this twit. It is shameful that you feel you need to justify him, his multiple jobs and frequent shaggy behavior in your own mind: quirky is right: you are giving him too much favor. He sounds a bit of a wobbler so introducing you to his mates until they get their story straight away probably won't happen. Even then, I would look for red flags that say his chums are helping him. Meeting his long time friends: assuming they are long time: might throw a spanner in the works and leave you heart broken. I would hate for that to happen. Even if he had just one friend: I would expect him to have introduce that bloak to you. Or are his long time friends all women that he is having sex with? Even if he were a pop star will a hog full of friends: don't you think he would introduce to to his band mates at least? I am using extremes to show that something just doesn't add up.

 

His multiple careers sounds a bit wonky also. How do you know he is really doing all of those things? Have you seen him do any of them or is it all spit-game? Red Flag. If you are a successful business woman I would watch my money closely: anyone can cover the cost of an occasional meal. There can't be enough hours in any day to complete all those things. He seems to be doing all these things away from you as well as this rumpy pumpy activities. Again I suggest as quirky did that this guy is all piss and wind. He needs to bugger off and let you be. Phone calls are easy and anyone can say the proper things if they are masters at manipulating: his goolies (naughty bits) are in control and he sounds a bit numpy. I agree: let the whole thing go and be happy with yourself! He just sounds like he is happy being a shag-about and is keeping you close just in case. I'm sorry. I would start asking for proof of all these things. If he offended than there is your proof. If he avoids the conversations: more proof. Things with his fellow just sound like barney.

 

Don't forget to step back from what you're going and assess where you are. If you need to, make corrections and adjust for a better you: even if the better you is completely away from this bloak: which I think would be your best option. He sounds daffy and is assuming you will sit on pause quietly. You want stability and doesn't: what bigger sign do you need?

[rig01]

To all those using the term "friend zone" like it's a real thing:

 

There's no such thing as the "friend zone", and unironic use of the term usually points to emotional immaturity. It's a made-up place where guys who are bitter have invented to explain why a woman won't sleep with them. A better way to say it is, "She's just not attracted to you." Do you think you're such an amazing catch that every woman should want you, to the point where it's an insult if they don't? News flash, not every guy is every girl's cup of tea, and many women can enjoy a man's company without wanting to jump in the sack with him. Why is it different for you? Wanting to develop a friendship with someone is a compliment!

 

It also makes you a terrible friend if you have to "settle" for a friendship, especially if the basis of your friendship is your unrequited feelings and you're only hanging out with her in hopes that she'll give you something back. If you're a self-proclaimed "Nice Guy" who holds out thinking she'll come around someday, you're actually being an unattractive doormat, and no wonder she's not into you.

 

Women make great friends! Stop putting women on a pedestal and treat them like you would anyone else, don't wait until a major crush has developed before addressing the dating topic, and you'll get the results you want (and if you don't, you'll be able to move on quickly). Personally, I love having women friends. Many of them I've asked out at some point, but NOT after harboring some big secret crush. I'm also perfectly fine with ending up as friends, even if she's attractive. If you keep genuinely making friends with these women, guess what? You have a whole bunch of pretty lady friends who can fix you up, and being social with women makes you seem desirable to others.

 

Learn how to enjoy being platonic first. THEN start dating without expectations.

[iamstrong]

rig01: the OP is a woman. She is attracted to him. He is shagging many women. You might well read the entire thread before attacking the OP. She is the one placed in the FZ from what I gather. She is holding out hopes that the bloke will come around after a period of randy behavior.

[Sportster2005]

He is playing you like a fiddle and you are enabling it. Sorry to be harsh. I don't think there is anyway or reason to sugar coat this. Just for a second ignore everything he has said and focus on his behavior. That's where his intentions are.

[IAmFCA]

rig and iamstrong:

 

I actually dont know that he is involved with more than one woman at a time. I only know of one woman in my city and one woman in his home city, and I do not think they overlapped, by his own description. But they may have. I know that he did not pursue me physically, because I made my boundaries clear. One night after a great night out and several cocktails he said something, I reminded him of my exclusivity rule, and the next day before 8 in the morning he had already apologized for chasing me like meat, his words. I had not felt that level of disrespect from him; he self corrected immediately, he didnt touch me or otherwise violate my boundaries with other than the one statement, immediately retracted.

 

He is an adult newly single male. I have found him to be honest with me, if he is sleeping with more than one woman at a time, I presume it is what the women accept. There was a time I would have accepted it as well, with certain discretions followed etc. It is not what he expects of himself and is causing him some concern and causes me some concern as well. As I said in my post, I recall the enormous chaos I chose once out of my relationship and after my friend's death. The unusually active sex life in his world is a similar response: the need to hear one's voice, feel oneself making connections, discover what oneself is like in the open world. It is not an excuse. It is where he has been psychologically and I will watch to see whether he is growing through it.

 

I do have evidence of the work he is doing, actually. We also went to visit the house he used to live in in my city, met one his old neighbors in the street, made small talk about his old times in that house and whats gone on since.

 

He is affording round trip flights over 1500 miles at least twice a month, with 10-day hotel stays each visit (except this last, one I suspect he stayed at least some of the time with the person he was seeing here). I have been in the hotel lobby, where they greet him by name, clearly familiar with him. I am not concerned about his honesty in these endeavors. Still, he may not be financially successful at them, I really dont know.

 

I am concerned about his chaos; I will continue to watch for that. I come from a family of entrepreneurs, and it is a fine line between successful and maddening.

 

And RIG: I totally agree: I have male friends, they are valuable, a few I have cherished for decades. I have women friends too, also for as long. When I meet people who are special, I like to keep them in some capacity. This guy seems to model a number of behaviors that are laudable, and I have been learning some skills from him. I am enjoying the platonic nature of our relationship.

 

I am drawn to him, to be sure, but I am able to leave him unattended as well. My close gf says we are courting, she likes it, she says Nobody does that anymore. My guy friend says, he is just trying to get some, which is incongruent with everything else. Time will tell.