It's sometimes hard to date someone who knows EVERYTHING about you.

[Batya33]

How about asking him to follow the general guidelines of "please don't give me unsolicited advice/input and please don't give me advice about something you know I already know". And perhaps add that especially when you are frustrated or emotional that is not the time to bring that stuff up - perhaps he can wait until it's a calmer time?

[penelope13]

You really can't erase what he knows and given the choice, I'm sure it's not what you want, because this knowledge is at the base of the year long friendship that is a major building block for your relationship now.

 

However, as others have suggested, he could learn that during a situation where you are emotional and not specifically asking for advice that he will focus on giving you comfort and support to calm you down and then talk later about whatever was going on.

 

Every therapist (or people in related fields) needs to learn how to separate their professional approach to situations from interacting with friends and family. Thus so could your boyfriend.

 

You could support this change in reacting to you being emotional by clearly stating that you are not looking for advice in this particular instance. What I mean, don't ask him what he thinks or why you are feeling like this, when you are not actually wanting answers to these questions in this particular instance.

 

Is it at a possible that you feel a bit resentful that his past doesn't effect him anymore , unlike yours?

[Fudgie]

I think maybe the best thing for me to do is to tell him to stop when I'm getting upset. Not sure if it will do much good but we'll see. I need to be more consistent and vocal. Normally when I get upset I tell him I'm upset and then I go on the porch and he knows I want to be alone for a bit. That is just how I am.I don't like to fight.

 

I am jealous that he has disconnected himself emotionally from the past so much. I wish I could do that. Ive not had it as bad as him and I'm on many pills plus therapy, and I still struggle from toke to time it sucks. He was beaten until he bled and he doesn't even care. People will make the "Your mother˝mean jokes and he'll just laugh and say ˝Yep, she's a waste of life." We got word that she has been saying that she has cancer and he just shrugged it off and said that he doesn't care and won't go to the funeral or make contact with her.

 

I am so envious. I wish I could be like that. I wish I could disconnect from the past emotionally and never have it affeft me. Why can't I be like that? It really just...gah.

[penelope13]

Everybody's journey is different. Thus you need to work through your past in your own way and in your own time. And just because he currently seems less effected by his past doesn't mean that he has dealt with it and that it will never bother him again in his life.

 

Thus if you can't disconnect from your past - then there is still something that you are trying to come to terms with. You can't force yourself to be 'over it'. You know it's a process. Don't waste precious energy on wishing it was just over. Just take it a day and a step at a time.

[Fudgie]

I've had a couple things bubble up lately, mostly because we are nearing the holidays and it's going to be the first season without my grandmother here. I don't want to go onto details but I was present every single dat that she was dying and I am struggling with certain things that happened regarding her death and the circumstances. I cant talk to my family about it either. You're right it is a process. But I'm tired of going through it. It just seems like many things wont get resolved.

 

I really do hope I can disconnect from it someday but I am doubtful.

 

I have a gut feeling that N's past will come back up. I don't mean with his POS family but rather himself. I don't know the full extent of how he's dealt with it. Ive had 2 dreams recently about him suffering and doing bad things because of it. I think something may resurface for him and he's going to have to deal with it.

[tiredofvampires]

As weird as this sounds...in some ways I think that people who have completely INSANE family members who can be chalked up to consummately hateful people have a more clear-cut path than those whose parents meant well, but did disastrous things, where the lines of love were blurred with damage. I've known someone like your boyfriend, who seems so much stronger in so many ways and it makes me feel ashamed that I can't "throw it all off" the way this individual does. But I've done a lot of reflecting on it, and what I believe is that by being able to totally divorce oneself from that person/family, and just think of them as Evil Incarnate affords a kind of "break" with the past, without any dangling relations and ambiguities, that then in some ways can facilitate moving on (as horrific and intense as the abuse was). He has made a TOTAL break, mentally and emotionally with his parents, because it's black and white with them. It's not the case for you -- there were many more shades of grey and complexities and you clearly still have a relationship (even one of love) with your dad. So it's a completely different playing field for you. There's more ambivalence, and ambivalence will really screw with you mind. For all the terrible ways he suffered, N can put it in a box and label it "hateful, wicked people" and move forward.

 

But I agree with you that he's not done dealing. In fact, I think his penchant to "play therapist" with others is, in a way, a vicarious way of him working out his own issues. I'm not saying he's avoiding his issues -- I'm saying that the need to work out awful stuff is still a part of his psyche because of what he underwent, and so seeing someone else go through major issues takes him to a familiar place. By working through your issues with you, he is still in a way coping with his.

 

I also don't believe that even though he's gotten better about the neediness and clinginess, that that is completely over. He has gained some confidence now in this relationship and in life in general, but those things are susceptibilities that could come out later again, rear their heads when he feels threatened in any way, which are a byproduct of his past. So right now, I'd say his problems are more dormant than "cured."

 

For me, I consider any input I get that is HELPFUL from a partner to be welcome. So for instance, if I'm feeling bad or mad about something and talk about it, and they point up a correlation to something that is an "issue" of mine that gets me thinking in a constructive way or brings my attention to something I'd not thought of, I'd welcome it the same way I'd welcome it from a friend, a close family member (like my sister, who is my best friend and also knows everything about me -- and we don't have any rules about what not to bring up), or a professional. Where it would cross the line for me (and this is just ME) would be if it's just gratuitous material or reminders that border on nagging and pressure. So for me, the "acid test" of whether this was unwelcome or not is if it was USEFUL (not WHO is doing the bringing it up). If it was PAINFUL but USEFUL, that would not bother me because I want useful input, from whomever offers it. To get mad at someone who is causing me pain by being useful would be shooting the messenger, in my reckoning.

 

On the other hand, if it's purely painful, repetitious, and I'm not benefiting from it in any way, then that's another story.

 

I'm not clear from your posts which it is, for you. It sounds like he's bringing up stuff that you say he's "right" about. That he has an uncanny sense of correlating things because he understands you, but is this actually fruitful insight? If he's right and you hadn't considered what he said, is that something you could see as beneficial -- or just painful?

 

I'm talking about myself personally because we all have a different tolerance level for this kind of self-disclosure and exposure. I'm very, very open -- not just open in expressing myself, but also open about receiving feedback, whether it hurts or not (as long as I know the person's intent and manner are loving, and they also 'get' me). But I wouldn't think someone else is wrong to want to enter onto some subjects without being subjected to an onslaught of unsolicited input, brilliant as it may be.

 

So is this unsolicited feedback anything you can take benefit from, or the other kind where you just feel it's painful, with nothing new being added?

 

And is it possible he thinks your therapist is not dealing effectively with it? Do YOU think she/he is?

[Fudgie]

TOV,

 

I am not consistent on this with him because his feedback varies. Sometimes he is helpful and not painful. Sometimes it is painful but helpful. But the other times, which have been bothering lately, are painful and usually not helpful. It's stuff I already know. Although admittedly I'm not sure if it's a case where I don't want to hear it but need to.

 

I completely agree with you on he is black and white on his past. My past isn't black and white. His is. It's easy for him to just toss it all away.

 

And yes I don't believe he's over things. He does have issues but they are dormant. I remember months ago when I told him that I felt he has a major fear of abandonment. Saying that strikes a chord with him. He says everyone is afraid of being abandoned. But he is more than afraid. Months ago, in May, I don't want to go into what but I believed he did something that I didn't want to deal with. I bear incensed and told him I wanted to leave him. The emotional response I got was unlike anything I have ever seen. N is always very stoic and calm. He flew into the worst crying fit I've ever seen anyone do. I've don't even think I cried that hard even when I was attempting suicide in my teens. He just wept and wept, not so much begging but practically going into a fetal position. I don't remember what I felt at that time but I did end up not leaving. But it took him a long time to calm down. I believe he is terrified of me leaving. I don't think that's all put of love for me. It is something else.

 

N and I really only fight on one issue TOV and I'm sure you can guess what it is: my father. I am still going to therapy but I see my dad like every week. As of now my life feels good and I am enjoying better family relationships. I am not really concerning myself with what may or may not have happened. When it comes to my father N gets upset. He says my father flirts with me, how I laugh at all his jokes, how he watches as my father and I make eye contact on certain subjects. This on time, my mother said "Freud is a load of crock". I don't recall doing this well but N said that my father and I both simultaneously looked up, locked eyes, and smiled. I do believe N when he said he say this. My father and I do things like that. He does look at me a lot. We have inside jokes. There is a weird undercurrent. I know this.

 

While I cut down on how much I talk about my dad to N, I don't with other people. N counts the times I say "father" when I am talking to other people. He watches me like a hawk when I talk to my dad. Now my father and I work at the same hospital and N is not happy about that although I do work nights. But our paths overlap.

 

N recalls the many statements I made to him before we were dating. How I felt that if my dad died would die too, because I couldn't go on. How I had the dreams I did. How I used to tell him about my sex life a lot. Everything. N knows this. He knows the dynamic. He sees us interact. He says he used to feel more threatened by my dad than any of my exes. Now he is better with it probably because of how I have modified my behavior. When we first started dating, N heard me say to my dad "Just us two, right?" in response to something and N had to go throw up.

 

He brings these things up. He brings the past up. He says I need to stop what I'm doing because it's horrible and unhealthy. He does not really wanted talking to my father that much but I think a couple times a week is fine. It's the ony thing we fight about but I feel like we always will

 

I don't want to be constantly reminded that I am the Walking definition of Freudian theory. It's deep within my psyche. I don't want to be told how sick it all is.

 

He is the only guy who knows this about me. B always suspected it jut I didn't really tell him. N knows the full extent.

 

Sometimes I don't even know why he's with me. I am so tainted. One time I told him of he felt it was so messed up, then why didn't he leave. He told me that he loved me regardless.

[Fudgie]

Oh and TOV, N is so much better about being insecure and clingy for now. I compliment him on it. We do a lot together but I go out alone with friends sometimes too. He doesn't care anymore. I also take plenty of alone time. Again he's fine. It's my father that makes him uncomfortable and act like he used to. I don't think I could meet another man who could invoke the same reaction in N.

[tiredofvampires]

Sometimes I don't even know why he's with me. I am so tainted. One time I told him of he felt it was so messed up, then why didn't he leave. He told me that he loved me regardless.

 

And what happened with his hysterical crying if something rocks the boat isn't "messed up"? Mind you, I know fear of abandonment. And I think he's right, everyone has that fear to some extent. But for him, the scary thing is that if it happened, he would not be able to cope. So I certainly would not say you're tainted, he's not, etc.

 

Some people, like I said, are really good at keeping things together as long as others are falling apart. I almost wonder if he needs you to be reliant on him. Helping someone through something that is very hard -- and they, alone, have the keys to (since he's the only one you trust with this information) -- makes you rely on him, and that, unconsciously, makes him feel more secure that you'll always need him (and therefore, not leave him.) It's not malicious, but I think that could be happening. Just a guess.

 

So I wonder if he is jealous of your dad? He's in competition, as he sees it. Even though he knows there is a boundary there, the close connection is something that predated him (N) and may seem to supercede him.

 

Also, since he had such a bad relationship with his opposite-sex parent, this would possibly be a trigger for him, in a way. Because that relationship in his life was so divisive, it's even more abhorrent to him to imagine that you have something leaning the opposite way.

 

I think while you can't tell him to anticipate what to censor, you might try to have an agreement with him that there are some things which come up that do not feel constructive, they only drive a wedge in. And then make an agreement that you'll have a phrase or word that gets his attention to stop talking about it. Like, "This is one of those times I want to stop talking about it." And that would be his cue to back off.

 

That way, you can let in the amount you want to let in, as you feel up to hearing what he has to say. At the same time, you're not asking him to be a mind-reader or censor his words/observations. He just has to respect that when you say you've had enough, he must stop, instead of pressing the issue. He has to understand that your shutting down does not bring you closer to resolution of the issues. So you might want to make that explicit.

 

But then be honest with yourself, and if he's saying something painful but useful, and you recognize that, then let him give his input at times so he feels he's expressed himself and been heard about something concerning to him.

[DN]

As I have tried to point out, it's all very well to talk to him about subjects that he should not bring up, or only bring up at certain times.

 

Not going to work. You can say that when all is calm and peaceful, it's even easier to write it down in a logical and ordered way on a keyboard. But in the midst of a discussion or argument - not going to happen. He will either say what is on his mind or shut down because if he can't say what he wants to say and/or thinks is necessary to say - he won''t say anything.

 

Life in a relationship, especially a long-term relationship, cannot be conducted with those sort of rules like some sort of candidate's debate (and look at how effective they are!)

 

You ascribe this problem to the fact that he knows you well and you have told him many things. But that is true of most long-term relationships. After some time, you know an awful lot about your partner. Perhaps people who have not been in a relationship that has lasted many years can't understand that - but people do get to the point where they know their partner history very well. You are just farther ahead in that than most new couples because of your prior close friendship. But it would have happened anyway if your relationships lasts.

 

It's also ironic that you object to him psycho-analysing you, but are doing it to him. It may be that his reaction to your threatening to leave came from what happened in his childhood but it is equally likely that he just had an extreme reaction to the idea of losing you with no other motive. PTSD does not happen to everyone who suffers trauma - some people were affected by fighting on the frontlines in war, some were affected but didn't show it, some were affected very little or not at all. Don't be misled by the plethora of Vietnam and Iraq veterans with PTSD - they are a minority, most soldiers carry on their lives. Some children will be badly affected later in life by the hurricane, others won't.

 

It is entirely possible that he has dealt internally with what happened and it would be a mistake to assume that he must be affected more than he claims to be just because you or others are or feel they would be affected by childhood abuse. If he has a reaction to something that seems to you to be more intense than you would expect, don't assume that is because of his childhood. Sometimes current pain is current pain and has nothing to do with the past.

[Wayfara]

I am jealous that he has disconnected himself emotionally from the past so much. I wish I could do that. Ive not had it as bad as him and I'm on many pills plus therapy, and I still struggle from toke to time it sucks. He was beaten until he bled and he doesn't even care. People will make the "Your mother˝mean jokes and he'll just laugh and say ˝Yep, she's a waste of life."

 

Most adults understand when a kid is beaten bloody it is not the fault of the kid so it is not that strange N doesn't feel any guilt or shame because his mother abused him, that shows his mother is nuts, it says nothing about N. You might not have gotten physically abused as N but your issues with your father are more personal so when N says something about your relationship with your father you feel shame together with your father. Telling N you feel he has a major fear of abandonment probably strikes more of a chord with him than "Your mother" jokes as that actually says something about him which the abuse doesn't. So what he does to you, repeatedly bringing up your issues with your father telling you it is unhealthy, is more like if you would bring up his fear of abandonment by repeatedly reminding him how he went into into fetal position weeping while telling him how horrible and unhealthy you think that is.

 

He says he used to feel more threatened by my dad than any of my exes.

 

Sounds like a jealousy issue to me.

 

It's the ony thing we fight about but I feel like we always will. I don't want to be constantly reminded that I am the Walking definition of Freudian theory.

 

The way I see you have four choices:

A) Break up with N

B) Accept that you will fight about this until you father is gone

C) Comply with N's wishes

D) Get N to accept your relationship with your father

 

If you love N you probably don't want to break up but fighting over this for maybe another thirty or forty years probably doesn't sound very tempting either. Maybe a comprise between C and D would be the best, maybe ask N what about your current relationship with your father he is uncomfortable with. As I understand it you want to keep a warm relationship with your father but without the weird undercurrent, is N willing to accept you having a good relationship with your father as long you don't cross any boundaries?

[Fudgie]

That Okay I have a lot to say here so I may have to break this up into bits.

 

TOV,

 

While N and I have discussed and agreed upon what to do if we broke up, he's barely able to speak about the subject. He'll just sat "well we are happy together so I don't think that will happen." He has really put 200% into this. There is a chance I may be going out of state for a couple years for grad school. I will go wherever I have to to get the degree I want. He already told me that he wants to follow me to grad school and take a job in his area of experience, preferably. I know that he wants to marry me someday because he has told me. He knows I don't want children and offered to get a sterilization in the far future. I never asked him to do any of these things. I am not the sort of person who demands a lot from one's partner. I've never been with someone who treats me like this. I don't want to get married for a long time and he is fine with that. I love N dearly and I know we will last a long time but for how long, I'm not sure. I wish I knew the future. I don't bank on anything anymore. I've had too many people change on me at the drop of a hat. Much more time is going to have to pass before I even consider the possibility outside of daydreaming.

 

N is jealous of my dad and I don't blame him. If we had a normal relationship I'd say N was a nut and would leave the but it's not like that. He know the dynamic.

N doesn't worry anymore about other guys and I. I am actually going out in the afternoon with an old friend from HS for coffee. I think in the past N would have not felt comfortable but instead he said "cool. Have fun!" he doesn't care about that anymore. It's all my dad.

 

I think I will try more to at least impart to him "When I am about to cry it's time to stop." I feel that that's fair and doesn't censor or restrict him. I just hope he listens to me and does not assume that I should keep hearing it. I don't want to hear about how I have father issues. I KNOW that. I'm not stupid. Repeating it over and over again does nothing.

 

N and I are opposites when it comes to family dynamic, TOV. We are both pathological in some ways. N withdraws from family and sees most of them as stupid and not having his best interests at heart. He can't even talk about or see things in the media regarding incest without feeling awful and almost sick. I know he had a traumatic experience once of his younger sister sneaking into his room and grabbing him and trying to have sex with him. She is mentally ill and he won't be in contact. She sometimes calls from an unblocked number and cries in a VM about how he's a terrible brother and she needs him. He gets totally freaked out and won't call her.

 

I am the opposite. I've always known what incest was. I have childhood drawings of incest (should have seen my therapist when she saw those). N is averse to a lot of positive family contact but I am too inclined the other way. My father and I have an undercurrent. I have brought it up but he says it's all me because I have feelings for him, although me having feelings doesn't bother him exactly. Wth.

I also have kissed my older, only blood cousin when I was younger. I was 16 and my father witnessed it all and didn't care.

 

We are opposite in this way and it's not good.

 

It really sometimes makes me worried that we won't be able to work this out.

[Fudgie]

DN

 

I will take your wise advice and not tell him not to talk about certain things. Instead I will tell him to stop when I am starting to really get upset at whatever he's saying. I think that's fair, do you?

 

Also TOV, I will give him credit. If he says something that's useful but upsetting. I will get upset but I won't get mad at him or yell him that he should shush it. When it's happened before after I feel better, I've told him that it was helpful.

 

I guess I just assumed his reaction was from some deep seated issue and not current pain. I said that I was wanting to leave, not that I was going to actually do it. I wanted to let him know how bad I was feeling. His reaction just felt over the top to me.

 

I don't think he has PTSD but I definitely know it has effected him in deep ways, both for the better and worse.

[DN]

I think that's fair, do you?

Yes, he should respect that, as I am sure you will do it tactfully.

[Fudgie]

Yes I will be nice about it. I don't want to hurt his feelings. I really don't.

 

Wayfara,

 

I agree with you on the points you made. He shouldn't feel any guilt over what happened. He was just a kid and it was all her fault. He didn't even fight back. She is the one who has been in jail for assaulting men so that should tell you something.

 

N finds the whole thing uncomfortable. Mostly things my dad does or days bit some of me too. Just little things. I can't help what my dad does. It's one of those awful situations where the undercurrent is there but even for those who know it, it's hard to pinpoint. Oh and my dad denies.

 

I think a mix of C and D is good. But there is an element of B. I don't think it will all be resolved. That sucks but I want to find a happy medium, somewhere.

 

N is mostly tolerating... For now. If he had his way I would not really talk to my dad. Well it's not going to happen. For now I take my calls with my dad elsewhere and I'll see my parents at times when N is busy so I don't have to worry. It works for now. He likes my mom Btw. IRS just my dad he has issues with right now. He used to really like him, not so much now. My dad really likes N but I feel sometimes I feel that he wishes I were with someone else, someone who is more successful and makes more. N makes more money than I do but I have more education and whatnot.

 

We'll have to see. It's hard. This is one of the many reasons why I'm in therapy.

[tiredofvampires]

I always love wayfara's posts -- she's consistently sharp and on-target. That post was no exception. The only thing I disagree with on is item D. Because you can't "get" another person to feel a certain way. There's no way you can control what N feels or will eventually feel about your relationship with your father. We'd all have tailored relationships to our specifications if that were possible.

 

The incestuous incident you describe N experienced with his sister fills in a lot about why it upsets him enough that it causes him to have to go vomit, regarding you and your dad. That explains a lot (even though incest is disturbing to any normal person.) I can see someone being very shaken and disturbed by it, but the vomiting seemed like more was going on for him, to have such an intense physical reaction. It also explains more why this is something he is pressing you about all the time. Because in a way, your relationship with your did is a continual trigger for HIM. And as much as he wants that normalcy for you, he also, understandably, doesn't want to keep dealing with a major trauma trigger that brings him back to a bad place of his own.

 

This would explain his insistence, as I see it.

 

I think I will try more to at least impart to him "When I am about to cry it's time to stop." I feel that that's fair and doesn't censor or restrict him. I just hope he listens to me and does not assume that I should keep hearing it.

 

But I think you should be more explicit than this. This doesn't feel direct to me. This still has a bit of an element of hoping he can guess at how bad you're feeling, and your expecting him to stop when it's enough for you. You have to TELL HIM in very direct, clear language, "Right now, this is not helping and I'd like to stop talking about it" or something like that. He can't know when you're about to cry, or how bad you're feeling. And even if you say, "This is making me feel really bad," that could elicit him saying, "But this is relevant here" like you said he says. What has to happen in your communication is that you tell him to STOP. Not that you're feeling bad, not that this is hurting or upsetting (I mean duh, he clearly can see that from your face, body language, etc.). That's not stopped him before, and the only thing that will change the dynamic is for you to have a phrase, sentence, etc. like I said that goes straight to the message in no uncertain language: S T O P.

 

I think this is where you're going wrong, because it is his habit to keep pressing the issue, thinking that no pain, no gain. So something different has to happen with what you communicate to him.

 

You don't have to say it meanly, but it should be firm and unambiguous. And you shouldn't just spring it on him. First you should have a conversation about all this (the contents of this thread -- have you ever even broached this with him? If you can tell him anything, this is part of "anything".) And together, he has to agree with you that you'll be saying the (ideally mutually) chosen expression at those times, so he knows what's going on for you and when, and agrees the message would be clear.

 

It might also help him become more aware of the pattern of what sorts of things lead to the "stop" message, and he'll go there less, once he sees which things tend to lead to that.

[DN]

I have to disagree with TOV because if you make this a big deal about the past and what can and can't be said - you lose. Big time. You need to make this light and easy not turn it into some huge psycho-drama with amateur psychiatry about his past, your past, incest or whatever. Simply say at the time, can we please not talk about it right now and move on.

 

Making this a much bigger deal than it need be would be a huge mistake.

[tiredofvampires]

I have to disagree with TOV because if you make this a big deal about the past and what can and can't be said - you lose. Big time. You need to make this light and easy not turn it into some huge psycho-drama with amateur psychiatry about his past, your past, incest or whatever. Simply say at the time, can we please not talk about it right now and move on.

 

Making this a much bigger deal than it need be would be a huge mistake.

 

I don't think we disagree about this, DN. Maybe you misunderstood my post, but I was only telling Fudgie my own take on his issues with incest for her own consideration. I wasn't telling her to air it all with him. Not because I think it should be kept "secret" as a reflection, but because I don't think it's necessary and wouldn't help the situation at hand, for Fudgie.

 

I also wasn't saying a big deal should be made about what can and can't be said -- the opposite. I was more agreeing with your point of view on that in my posts, DN. I, myself, would greatly value a partner knowing this much about me and would not want to have certain aspects of it "off limits." If anything, I've had partners who had too many restrictions around what we could and couldn't talk about (both ways), and I felt muzzled, as well as shut out. So I was advising not trying to control or censor him by making rules about subjects, since every time it will be a different conversation anyway.

 

I was simply advising that Fudgie and N come to an understanding that at times, it's not going to be helpful what he's doing, and at those times, she will say specifically that she doesn't want to continue, without more pressure from him (like, "but this is relevant", etc.). I think Fudgie hasn't been clear enough with him, and I would guess he'd read this thread with some surprise and concern. So she should lay it out for him.

[Fudgie]

I don't want N knowing I post here. Everything I tell you guys is already known by him but I love ENA in that I can get advice on my relationship. I dont go to friends for that. If N were to read what I post here, he would not find out anything new other than maybe I'm more upset on this communication issue than I let on to be. I like having this place.

 

TOV, I agree with you I am not being clear or assertive enough. Part of it is the ambiguity because some of what he says is helpful and other stuff isn't. The other part is just how I deal with being hurt. When this stuff comes out, I don't really attack back or get angry, my mind just goes "PLEASE STOP PLEASE STOP PLEASE STOP" and my one concern is how to get out of the conversation so I can go and lick my wounds.

 

TOV, what happened with his sister was very truamatic for him and yes, I think it colours things for him. His sister later was "recruited" by the mother to help beat him into the ground and she always did.

 

I think I will approach him today before it happens again and tell him that I'm going to say a certain sentence when things get too intense and upsetting for me when we talk about things and then when he hears that we BOTH stop and either take a breather or have a subject change.

 

I think this may work since he wont be restricted by conversation topic but rather just knowing that when inner to stop he needs to STOP. and I need to have the gall when I'm upset to stand up for myself instead of going into the fetal self-pity-ouch mode I usually go into.

 

Im also going to tell him that if he doesn't respond to my safety sentence, I'm going to actually remove myself from the situation (which I normally do) but I wont come back until I'm better AND he is willing to do a subject change. That is the consequence for not listening to me say that I am upset and want to move on. He really needs to listen to me when I say this.

 

I'm going to my therapist after work. I am going to run this by her.

 

This relationship is extremely intense at times. Not in a bad way or anything. Ive never met anyone who can push my buttons like he does. And I know I do the same to him sometimes. My past relationships did not feel quite as intense in this way. He has made me cry several times, forcing me to look at what I'm doing,making me feel incensed sometimes. He peels away my outer layer until I am raw with emotion and totally exposed.

 

I think we both are flawed in our own ways and are both scared at times. I need to grow and heal more. N needs to too. I hope we can do it together.

[Wayfara]

The only thing I disagree with on is item D. Because you can't "get" another person to feel a certain way. There's no way you can control what N feels or will eventually feel about your relationship with your father. We'd all have tailored relationships to our specifications if that were possible.

 

I agree that you can't make someone feel a certain way. I meant accept in a rational way like if N and Fudgie would agree that quick hugs with family members are okay then he shouldn't give Fudgie a hard time for giving her father that quick hug even if he still would feel weird about it inside. He will maybe always feel weird about it as it is there back in his head but if he can see that Fudgie isn't "cheating" he can make a rational decision to not put her down over it. She of course can't force N to make that decision but she can ask if he would be willing to. A similar scenario can happen if one would decide to forgive a spouse for cheating, to make it work you can't put down the spouse for the past cheating repeatedly year after year and forbid them to ever form a human connection again. A small part of you may always worry that they will stray again but a time will come when you have to allow your spouse to go out without your supervision without making them feel bad about it despite your fears.

 

Sometimes I don't even know why he's with me. I am so tainted. One time I told him of he felt it was so messed up, then why didn't he leave. He told me that he loved me regardless.

 

It seems to me that right now N's position is that he won't leave you for being in contact with your father as he loves you regardless, instead he will repeatedly argue with you about it until you see the light. Being with someone expecting them to change isn't an ideal situation, especially if it is something you feel never will change. It might be worth to bring that to his attention.

 

N finds the whole thing uncomfortable. Mostly things my dad does or days bit some of me too. Just little things. I can't help what my dad does. It's one of those awful situations where the undercurrent is there but even for those who know it, it's hard to pinpoint. Oh and my dad denies.

 

Like you said, you can't help what your father does so maybe tell N that it is not really fair to make you feel bad when it is your father he is angry at. N also knows your past so maybe he reads into more than there is. Weekly visits, inside jokes and eye contact are not uncommon to find in normal family dynamics too without it being anything sexual about it. What goes on in your father's head you can't really know so if he has inappropriate thoughts that is on him, it is not your responsibility, the most important should be what you feel and think. Are you doing something right now in your relationship with your father that could be considered as emotionally cheating? Does the way your father talks to you feel like flirting to you too?

 

It might be a good idea to find out N's stand about you having a good relationship with your father if he knew 100% you only felt family love toward your father. Would he still be uncomfortable with it because of what has been there in the past?

[Fudgie]

I don't know how I feel towards my father right now. It's all so messed up. That's the point. Because of what's going on with me I can't 100% say that there is no feeling on my end. And N knows this.

I've had to watch my thoughts once in a great while and make sure that they aren't going places that they have gone in the past.

 

N really gets upset at times like at a family dinner, my dad will usually focus solely on me. I kind of avoid it for a bit and then end up with at talking to him m. He'll hog away all my attention. When he's talking to someone else and notices that I'm leaving on long at him, we'll look our eyes. The thing is, my dad KNOWS about my issues regarding him and he doesn't seem to mid. He pokes fun at it. He gave me a Freud doll for a Christmas. Everyone just laughed. But he and I both knew why he did that. Our eyes locked and he gave me that look.

 

I could write a long bit about all the weird little things but you have to see, it's not normal. I know it's not and I always have. People have noticed too. N has always noticed before I even told him. I used to worship my father and in some ways I still do. When I was 15, I found myself wishing that I could have been older and born of another time... Yes I thought that. That's when things really started to spiral for me.

 

My dad and I used to have this weird kinda flirty nature going on. I have stopped that but there is still a undercurrent. We used to talk about our sex lives a lot too. No longer. But there's still something... There. It's not normal.

 

So there's this weird dynamic still there. I feel compelled to slip into old habits b t I watch myself. I don't know what else I can do.

 

I feel terrible for N because he has to deal with this. I don't feel like this dynamic was entirely one sided. I feel shameful and guilty for still having it now, despite not knowing what to do to make it better other than the obvious. I can't imagine the pain N feels at times when he sees my dad and I together, knowing what he knows.

 

I don't know what will happen in the future but this has forever been a part of me. I struggle almost everyday. It's my worst secret. I don't blame N if he were to leave over it. I'd rather he be happy elsewhere than unhappy with me, even though thinking about him leaving makes my chest feel unbearably heavy and thick.

[Wayfara]

I don't know how I feel towards my father right now. It's all so messed up. That's the point. Because of what's going on with me I can't 100% say that there is no feeling on my end.

 

I understand it isn't something you can say 100% now, you are still working it through. What I meant is that the problem might not be just about your ambigous feelings for your father, it might be that N would be uncomfortable with the relationship with your father even when and if your feelings would be long gone (like when some people don't want a partner stay in contact with an ex regardless of lingering feelings being there or not).

 

N really gets upset at times like at a family dinner, my dad will usually focus solely on me. I kind of avoid it for a bit and then end up with at talking to him m. He'll hog away all my attention. When he's talking to someone else and notices that I'm leaving on long at him, we'll look our eyes. The thing is, my dad KNOWS about my issues regarding him and he doesn't seem to mid. He pokes fun at it. He gave me a Freud doll for a Christmas. Everyone just laughed. But he and I both knew why he did that. Our eyes locked and he gave me that look.

 

It must be a very complicated situation for you especially as he denies his part of the problem, it sounds like he thinks it is flattering. I guess talking with your father about wanting a more normal relationship with him would be a futile effort?

 

I struggle almost everyday. It's my worst secret. I don't blame N if he were to leave over it. I'd rather he be happy elsewhere than unhappy with me, even though thinking about him leaving makes my chest feel unbearably heavy and thick.

 

You are working it through in therapy and you have taken steps to prevent it. Issues like this takes time to resolve, one cannot expect you to change overnight. I am sure N knows you wouldn't blame him for leaving and for this present he is making the choice to stay. Making the relationship work is the job of two people, while you are working on your issues you can ask him to try to have some understanding for your situation. If this is something you fight about often he might not be picking his battles but fighting about it every time he feels hurt even just a bit. He should be free speak his mind when there are concerns, like when he feels you are crossing a boundry, but picking fights at every little whiff of the dynamic isn't very helpful, might even be counterproductive in your process, just as putting someone down for their weight can make them turn into more food for comfort. I like tiredofwampires' suggestion about a mutually chosen expression that indicates when it is time to stop. In your place I think I would also try to ask him in a nice way to safe his battles to when he feels you are crossing a boundry, not just to remind you in general what he thinks about your relationship with your father, that only makes you feel bad about yourself and slows down your progress.

 

I think a mutual agreement about what the boundaries should be would be a good idea too so you both know what is okay and what is not. It is hard to make boundaries about subtle signals though and I think he will have to accept some of that in the beginning as long you are doing your best to work this through.

 

I am sorry if my posts sound a bit blunt sometimes, English is my second language. I hope you will be able to resolve this problem and wish you the best of luck in doing so.

[Fudgie]

I don't know, Wayfara..I don't know if N would be fine with me having a relationship with him if my feelings were gone. N is not only concerned about me, he is also concerned about my father and he thinks his father has feelings for me too in a weird way.

I mean, I guess it's possible but it's going to take a L-O-N-G time, lots of therapy for me, possibly therapy for N, lots of meds for me, and just working through this junk.

 

My dad laughs off the mere possibility that we have an "undercurrent". He thinks our relationship is extraordinary and wonderful. I leave it alone with him. He does not see.

 

I think I will take what you said into consideration and do this: encourage him to tell me when I do/say something or my dad does/says something that bothers him. If he brings up stuff out of the blue that doesn't feel productive (rather than him bringing up something that bothers him at present, he's just ranting about it) then I'm going to tell him to stop and that I feel upset. Because that stuff does make me upset. But I think it's important for me to listen to his concerns regarding this and I'm happy to listen to those.

 

I did end up going to my therapist today. She agrees that I need be firm with this and be assertive when N brings up counter-productive things that hurt me. My therapist finds my situation interesting but sad that this has affected me for so many years and still causes me a lot of pain, shame, and guilt in my life. We are actively working on it together. I go to therapy every week and I will continue to go until I don't need it anymore, however long that is. I may be in it for many, many more years and that's okay.

 

Your posts aren't blunt. You write very well! I had no idea that English was your second language! You write better than many people who speak English as their first language! I thank you and everyone for your wonderful advice. I'm repping everyone if I can!