When Oedipus Meets Elektra

[Silverbirch]

OR the ocean represents emotion. Vast and fluid, can be overwhelming, has changing moods. The beach is the edge, where physical and emotion meet. He'd rather lounge at the edge, stay grounded in the physical world. She's all for diving in, emotions are her element. Good thing she can handle both elements.

 

Hi JN, I can see this would be the case for many of us.

[journeynow]

Hi JN, I can see this would be the case for many of us.

Diving in? Or staying on solid ground?

 

I supposed it varies with conditions.

[Lonewing]

Carla, not one man I have ever been with would have allowed me to paint a room pink. I recall once when I was living with R, my exex, I bought a bed cover which was white and had small rosebuds on it. He cracked it. I had no idea it would be a big deal.

 

I do not think it's a one way street - if the bedspread was white with pink rosebuds, then that's what we're sleeping in...

[Lonewing]

OR the ocean represents emotion. Vast and fluid, can be overwhelming, has changing moods. The beach is the edge, where physical and emotion meet. He'd rather lounge at the edge, stay grounded in the physical world. She's all for diving in, emotions are her element. Good thing she can handle both elements.

 

Or maybe he's perfectly fine with his emotions, but he doesn't want to be emotional WITH HER.

[Silverbirch]

I do not think it's a one way street - if the bedspread was white with pink rosebuds, then that's what we're sleeping in...

 

Sorry, not sure what you mean - ? that it is too uncomfortable to be around a feminine object? ? Engulfed by it?

[Silverbirch]

Diving in? Or staying on solid ground?

 

I supposed it varies with conditions.

 

LOL JN, I posted on another thread a while back that I had some type of experience during orgasm where I saw myself, my energy as part of the ocean - could see and hear the ocean.

 

Well, I could see myself as wanting to play and float and the man wanting to stay dry on the beach - just watching everyone else - a spectator rather than participant,

 

Do you recall a book from the 90's called Women Who Run With The Wolves. Your suggested analogy reminded me of it. There was a story of a girl whose father throws her into the rapids. Do you know it?

[journeynow]

Or maybe he's perfectly fine with his emotions, but he doesn't want to be emotional WITH HER.

 

That's a different story, though, because in Silverbirch's version he wants to but is afraid.

Meanwhile, he's lying back on the sand, trying to look as though nothing is wrong. Inside his head though, the committee meeting is holding a vigorous debate. What he hasn't told her is that he has had a lifelong fear of water. He so wants to go in the sea with her, but he is afraid that if he does, he will drown and die.

[journeynow]

LOL JN, I posted on another thread a while back that I had some type of experience during orgasm where I saw myself, my energy as part of the ocean - could see and hear the ocean.

 

Well, I could see myself as wanting to play and float and the man wanting to stay dry on the beach - just watching everyone else - a spectator rather than participant,

 

Do you recall a book from the 90's called Women Who Run With The Wolves. Your suggested analogy reminded me of it. There was a story of a girl whose father throws her into the rapids. Do you know it?

 

Ah, yes, I see the ocean connection...

 

I've heard of the book, Women Who Run with the Wolves, but haven't read it and don't know the story. Does she survive?

[Batya33]

I think most often so-called commitmentphobes aren't afraid of commitment, they're just afraid of committing to the wrong person - no more than anyone else-it's just that Ms. Wrong (for that person) chalks it up to commitmentphobia. It's better not to especially if you think you might hear of or from the person again because when that person gets engaged within the year it makes it far harder to move on from the illusion of commitmentphobia rather than accepting from the get go that it probably was simply "just not that into you".

Sorry if that's a bit off topic for the oedipus part of this thread.

[Silverbirch]

Ah, yes, I see the ocean connection...

 

I've heard of the book, Women Who Run with the Wolves, but haven't read it and don't know the story. Does she survive?

 

The book is a collection of stories. Yes, she does survive - she is caught on a fishing line by a fisherman, but I think she pulls him into the water or nearly. He tries to get away from her, but she is caught on his line and neither of them can get away from each other. Eventually, they both stop running and she unhooks herself.

 

Lonewing's posting reminded me of this painting I used to like quite a long time ago. Apparently though, there are some slightly dark connotations to a lot of Klimt's art. This is said to be about the woman losing her identity through her relationship with a man. Lonewing's posting about the doona reminded me of it - maybe a type of reversal of engulfment - in this case, the woman becoming engulfed by the man.

 

 

[Silverbirch]

I think most often so-called commitmentphobes aren't afraid of commitment, they're just afraid of committing to the wrong person - no more than anyone else-it's just that Ms. Wrong (for that person) chalks it up to commitmentphobia. It's better not to especially if you think you might hear of or from the person again because when that person gets engaged within the year it makes it far harder to move on from the illusion of commitmentphobia rather than accepting from the get go that it probably was simply "just not that into you".

Sorry if that's a bit off topic for the oedipus part of this thread.

 

Absolutely Bataya, but I'm a little surprised to hear you write about no contact with exes because I gathered that you are now very happily married to an ex.

[Batya33]

Absolutely Bataya, but I'm a little surprised to hear you write about no contact with exes because I gathered that you are now very happily married to an ex.

 

Oh I didn't mean no contact with exes - I meant accepting that the issue likely was "just not that into you" from the get go so that if you have mutual friends or with social networking sites the way they are -you might hear of an engagement -better to be ready for that news. I've had contact with most of my exes -the one who seemed to be "just not that into me" I cut off contact with for a time because he still wanted to hang out and hook up. We had mutual friends and I asked them not to mention his activities to me. But, a friend who was not a mutual friend heard through the grapevine that he got engaged and told me thinking I'd hear about it in a harsh way perhaps and she wanted to soften the blow. I already knew that he was seeing someone. I was happy that I'd accepted the "just not that into you" thing from early on. It helped a lot.

[Silverbirch]

Hi Bataya,

I think all cases are individual. So far, all of my exes have tried to come back, but I have moved on by then. The ex who I was with for 10 cheated and I just accepted that he wasn't that into me. He is supposedly engaged to somebody else now, but has told 2 people I know that his behaviour towards me and the end to the relationship was the biggest mistake of his life. I wish him well, but he would be the last person I would want to be with today. In fact, I wouldn't want to be back with any of my exes, but it's nice to know that, at least in your case, there are some happy endings for both. Well, I guess in my cases, they are happy too in a different way.

 

Back onto the subject of people being scared of commitment (ones who have come right out and expressed that) - there is a risk that eventually, the other person will just get tired and bored with sabotaging behaviour.

[greywolf]

I'm not sure what you mean about the relationship between the oedipal complex and commitmentphobes. I think that people are afraid of commitment for a bunch of reasons.

 

I actually do have that book. I've never gotten around to reading it though. =/

 

Also, I have very limited experience, but I can't say that I've ever been with someone that refused to talk about how they were feeling. Even the thing about the blanket strikes me as a little odd. Maybe because I grew up in a culture where women are the head of the household, but I can't ever imagine a man telling a woman how her house should be decorated.

[Lonewing]

Sorry, not sure what you mean - ? that it is too uncomfortable to be around a feminine object? ? Engulfed by it?

 

What I'm saying is, neither man nor woman can be too set in their mode that things have to be THEIR way. If you chose a pink and white bedspread, that's perfectly fine...I may choose wood floors, or a walnut dresser, and again, that'd be fine. but if I sit there and tell you the walls, the bedspread, the dresser and the very curtains all have to be my way, well, then I'm no less wrong than you'd be insisting the same thing. Now if we gave each other a room within our castle where we could be loose without the other this is one thing, but for any one of us to claim creative control over the entire castle, well, now this is wrong. And yet, this is often what happens when one lets the other into his domain; she demands it becomes her domain.

 

Hence, we went towards the "woman get the house, man gets the garage/basement. And she doesn't go down in those places because he keeps them cold, dark, and scary, for as long as she's scared to even go down there, he never has to fear that she may intrude into his territory.

 

Naturally, this creates a lot of separation, which I highly dislike. I have yet to find someone, though, who is ok with 'sharing" a space. it usually becomes Their space in a short time indeed.

 

It's not a male issue nor a female issue, though.

[Silverbirch]

Yeah Lonewing,

The bedspread thing caught me very much by surprise, and I agree with what you said. In retrospect, a couple of people who knew him believed him to have a lot of masculinity issues - that was why he got so into body-building. He was just used to go to the gym a couple of times a week when first knew him, but over a period of time became very obsessed, not just with going to the gym, but all the body-building food too. I agree about sharing space and I have no problems with that whatsoever, but that issue with him and the ensuing conversations did make me sensitive about trying not to dominate shared spaces I have had since then with my own feminity. Current man in my life doesn't seem at all bothered by those sort of things. In fact, I had to laugh at his own bed linen - I think it might be left over from when his daughter was a teenager. LOL To him, a bed is a bed, end of story. Surprisingly or not, he doesn't seem to have the same type of masculinity issues, definitely in relation to his body - he is 6 feet 4 inches tall and around a 100kgs solid. He gets all the exercise he needs with work. He doesn't eat meat because he doesn't want to contribute to animal suffering in that way. Gosh, when I write about him, I can't but help but be reminded about why I usually find him so attractive DAMN IT!

[Silverbirch]

I'm not sure what you mean about the relationship between the oedipal complex and commitmentphobes. I think that people are afraid of commitment for a bunch of reasons.

 

I actually do have that book. I've never gotten around to reading it though. =/

 

Also, I have very limited experience, but I can't say that I've ever been with someone that refused to talk about how they were feeling. Even the thing about the blanket strikes me as a little odd. Maybe because I grew up in a culture where women are the head of the household, but I can't ever imagine a man telling a woman how her house should be decorated.

 

Hi Grey,

A lot of stuff is very sketchy to me these days as it's so long since I've been in much discussion about this sort of thing - not that I've ever been an expert. I did study basic psychology at uni - quite a long time ago - and like I said only basic. I've always been under the impression that a lot of Oedipal men have love-hate relationships with their mothers, and hence a lot of fears about being controlled, especially emotionally by their mothers and subsequently other women - particularly ones they are in intimate relationships with. I was told that D H Lawrence, the English novelist incorporated a lot of ideas about the Oedipal male and his relationships in many of his books, especially "Sons and Lovers" which I read a couple of times, but again, that was many years ago. I do think he was an AMAZING man - light years ahead of his time and his books will be read for many years to come because they have timeless themes. Surprisingly or not, many of his books were banned from publication at the time he wrote them. I stand to be corrected on any of this.

 

By the way, "Women Who Run With the Wolves" supposedly gets many of it's themes from Jung but with feminist influences. At the time I read it, I really liked it. Maybe a lot of people would find it a bit dated now. Good fables and stories though.

[Lonewing]

Home decoration Stubbornness...so this reminds me...

 

My ex had this long tall red vase - it wasn't particularly important, she bought it for the purpose of decorating the room. It looked goodagainst the sage colored wall above the mantlepiece.

 

But she kept insisting on putting it closer to the middle of the mantle, right where there was a bend in the mantlepiece as it went around the chimney section.

 

We had a couple cats. The little calico female INSISTED on walking on the mantlepiece - there was nothign going to sotp her form jumping up there. And when she came to the vase, she quite nearly insisted on trying to go between it and the wall, every time, even though in order to do so she's have to jump a good 15." I knew what she was trying to do - she was trying to kill that vase!!

 

So I, being a bit smarter, moved the vase to the end of the mantle next to an opposing wall, where that cat had no business going. And that cat didn't bother it there. My ex, though, replaced it; and I moved it back. She replaced it. I watched the cat tease it, and I moved it back. My ex grumbled, and put it back near the middle.

 

One very early morning while we're in bed, we hear a loud crash in the living room. Yep, you guessed it...that cat finally Killed that vase!

 

I shrugged my shoulders and rolled over...for that was the end of it!!

[Silverbirch]

Lonewing, my mum's a bit OCD when it comes to where things are placed and she doesn't like things to be crooked. LOL, I can imagine your cat on the mantlepiece. My life and man's is quite rustic these days - his definitely a lot more rustic than mine - talk about bachelor pad - but I actually like it, but not sure how I'd go living there. He lets his dishes pile up and I've asked if we do live together (he is the one bringing that up a lot these days), what would he think if I got a dishwasher. Didn't know what he'd say as he is very environmentally conscious, but he's okay with it. Another thing I would have to get used to or find a way around is that he got very annoyed with his daughter for taking down the cobwebs at the front of the house - they were homes for the spiders. LOL, yes, he really is like that, but I sort of like it. I've been bitten several times by venomous spiders and got quite sick, but I'm not actually scared of them - it's rare for anyone to die from venomous spiders and they don't hurt more than nasty mosquito or March fly bites.

 

He has a favourite cat which is notoroious for spraying on the tyres of visitors cars. His best friend rides a motorbike and visited one day. Well, course they knew the bike's tyres would have a territorial marking, but that wasn't all . . . when his friend went to leave, he went to put his motorcycle helmut on and . . . you guessed it.

 

If I do move in with him, I'll have plenty I'll need to decide if I can cope with as far as homemaker stuff goes so my doona cover with the rosebuds was just NOTHING.

[Circe]

Is Freud really the de facto standard in psychology? Still? Has this field not advanced since 1940?

 

Nope. Not at all. We've moved WELL beyond. Freud is still the de facto standard in psychotherapy aka charlotonism aka 'take-your-money-for-twenty-years-with-no-results'

[Silverbirch]

Nope. Not at all. We've moved WELL beyond. Freud is still the de facto standard in psychotherapy aka charlotonism aka 'take-your-money-for-twenty-years-with-no-results'

 

Tell us about the current standards Circe. Please fill us in.

 

My most recent ex was a practising clinical psychologist for many years. I know that a lot of the theory which influenced his practice was based on attachment theory - but not Freud. He was actually the one who pointed out to me that Freud was the father - the one who started it and it was his work which then caused debate and development of ideas . . . something which seems lost on a lot of people. I don't know lots about what was around before him, but I do have some vague recollections of some of the views of influential social psychologists - namely, that women are naturally gifted liars. I can elaborate on that it you choose, but likely you would know more about it than I do.

[Batya33]

I don't think expressing fear of commitment even generally means that the person would fear commitment with a person he was really into or clicked with -which was my original point about women who go with that excuse only to be hurt later when they learn it probably was not true (even if the man actually wanted to believe it to be true).

 

That's interesting that all your exes came back. For me it didn't count as "coming back" unless they wanted an exclusive relationship again. I don't think I've kept count about who did that and who didn't at least with the shorter term people.

[Silverbirch]

 

That's interesting that all your exes came back. For me it didn't count as "coming back" unless they wanted an exclusive relationship again. I don't think I've kept count about who did that and who didn't at least with the shorter term people.

 

It has actually caused me to wonder if maybe they thought they could just do whatever they wanted, behaved however and I would just take them back. With my exex, I took him back more than once after some really bad behaviour - but only took him back once after I caught him cheating. It was a mistake to take him back so many times. After that relationship, even though I grieved badly over the ending of the following relationship, I'm glad I went NC long enough to get my head straight and give myself time to get over the breakup and accepting of it. As for exclusivity, I tend to think that a person is a player, then they are a player, and not likely to change . . . not permanently anyway.

 

PS All my relationships have been long-termers for some reason - so far anyway. Shortest has been 4 years.

[Circe]

Tell us about the current standards Circe. Please fill us in.

 

My most recent ex was a practising clinical psychologist for many years. I know that a lot of the theory which influenced his practice was based on attachment theory - but not Freud. He was actually the one who pointed out to me that Freud was the father - the one who started it and it was his work which then caused debate and development of ideas . . . something which seems lost on a lot of people. I don't know lots about what was around before him, but I do have some vague recollections of some of the views of influential social psychologists - namely, that women are naturally gifted liars. I can elaborate on that it you choose, but likely you would know more about it than I do.

 

I will fill you in, Silverbirch.

 

Freud was not the start. We started with the medical model of mental illness - where people assumed that all mental illness had a biological cause. When Freud came along, he opened the profession up to the idea that it's not necessarily biological. He argued that the source of mental illness was that the defence mechanisms we have developed to deal with psychic conflict sometimes get out of hand and cause us distress and the solution to this was psychotherapy or the "talking cure".

 

In the 50s, Hans Eyesnk (I think it was) did a study that showed that psychotherapy did not help patients and in some cases could harm them.

 

After that the profession went back to the medical model. Today, clinical psychologists use the cognitive-behavioural approach to treatment. They have to because insurance companies and government health programmes that pay for mental care don't want to pay for something that doesn't show results. Empirical studies show that cognitive-behavioural treatments yield results but psychotherapy doesn't.

 

Many clinical psychologists will say acknowledge that Freud is useful and an understanding of what he taught is important but that treatment should proceed on the basis of methods that have empircal backing. Psychotherapists who follow the Freudian approach are basically just taking people's money and not helping them (many people "get over" many mental illnesses around the 2 yr mark without help - psychotherapy does not yield faster results) and can actually harm them. That is charlatonism. It's a total scam to use it as therapy - especially if it's the only aspect of therapy.

 

I hope that helps.

[Silverbirch]

Circe, not only were origins of inner conflict believed to be biological, in many instances they were believed to be caused by demonic possession, egs schizophrenia.

 

Whilst Freud's theories may be debated and disproven, I believe his work was very important because it was through his work that the impact of family dynamics and attachment played a major role in shaping personality. Whether you believe in the impact of the family of origin on the individual is your right to choice. Perhaps it is because we live in different countries, perhaps my ex was one of the professional charlatan's you speak of (I don't think so), attachment theory was ONE of several frameworks he referred to in developing practice. When I first met him, he had been a forensic psychologist for a number of years. Then he moved into both a consulting and management position in community health where he had many clients with a broad range of reasons for seeking consultation.

 

I personally DO believe that if an individual chooses a road to emotional and psychological self-improvement, that looking at one's relationships with parents is often beneficial. If you go back and read the original post, you might see (though perhaps I failed miserably) that the purpose of using the terms Oedipal and Elektra was to hopefully generate discussion on other ways of looking at what many label commitmentphobe (see my ref to my favourite type of Freudianism as "effed-if-I-Know Freudanism").

 

I think that there have been a lot of people in the field who made incredible contributions to changes in views, and that there views would now be considered out-dated. My personal favourite - Carl Rodgers, the humanistic theorist, who by the way believed that the most important factor in determining whether or not therapy would be successful was whether or not there developed mutual trust and respect between therapist and client - something obviously widely not present - perhaps not possible.

 

Also with regard to attachment theory, and I'm sure you could disprove this, I believe there really is something called Madonna/ * * * * * Complex, and that it's origins ARE mostly from parental influence, attachment and socialisation in and from the family although there would be other contributing factors. (I've seen numerous posts at ENA on 'Vanilla Women" - the type of woman many men choose as wives and mothers to their children - and the men can't understand why they can't stop obsessing about another type of woman who they consider as very different to their "Vanilla's". Do you really think that a purely cognitive-behavioural approach will be life-changing for them??? (and the women in their lives of course). I haven't had hundreds of men in my life, but ALL except one told me that their mothers gave them messages about the 2 types of women - the ones to marry and the "Bad Girls", and one of those men said he can't understand why he allowed his mothers views on that to shape his own views - at that time. I'll bet that is the experience of at least some men who modern, especially pop-psychology books refer to as "commitmentphobe".