When Oedipus Meets Elektra

[greywolf]

I agree that there is a Madonna/W**** complex, but I don't think that it is necessarily related to the oedipal complex.

[Silverbirch]

Hi Greywolf, what do you think it is related to?

[Silverbirch]

Greywolf, for what it's worth, whilst I haven't met you in person, from what I know of you, you appear to be proof that women cannot be labelled as either of these 2 types. You are a sweet lovely kind young woman who loves adventurous sex. I personally think the roots of MH Complex are from patriarchy which has been instilled into both men and women primarily through their families, in particular, their parents. It can be seen in it's most extreme forms in some middle-eastern cultures.

[greywolf]

Hi Greywolf, what do you think it is related to?

 

Well, what I mean is that the oedipal complex comes during the phallic stage, when children are becoming aware of their sex and gender. It was not something that Freud believed extended into adulthood. However, that does not mean that there are not men that have emotionally incestuous relationships with their mothers (which I think is a form of abuse) as they get older.

 

What I think it is related to is people's views on sex and on the sexuality of women. It is still deeply ingrained into western society that women who enjoy sex are dirty.

[Silverbirch]

I think it is both social and instilled through the family. Sometimes people refer back to Freud's extreme views on a supposed incestuous relationship between mother and son rather than acknowledging that often,, for whatever individual reason, mothers can have very emotionally/psychologically controlling relationships with their sons. I don't think that necessarily means either of them wants to even subconsciously shag the other.

[Circe]

I too don't see the r'ship between the madonna/w ---- complex and the oedipus complex. The oedipus complex is about attachment to the mother. The madonna/w ---- complex.. I think we can put down to plain old misogyny. Not that there isn't plenty of that in Freud too.

[Circe]

Circe, not only were origins of inner conflict believed to be biological, in many instances they were believed to be caused by demonic possession, egs schizophrenia.

 

Haha, yes - but that wasn't a "biological" cause and that was prior to the biological model - however I didn't think it was worth mentioning

 

 

Whilst Freud's theories may be debated and disproven, I believe his work was very important ... [/Quote]

 

Not discounting the importance of Freud. My problem is with modern day practitioners who use psychoanalysis as their primary or sole treatment. That makes me extremely angry. People in a very vulnerable state are going to them, paying a fortune, asking for help - and they are giving them a "treatment" which has no empirical support behind it. To me, that's morally wrong.

 

And that's when it's not reeaaaally problematic. I'm sure you are aware of that time in history, not so long ago, when people started to accuse their fathers/uncles/male-figures of sexual assault based on "false memories" that arose from "psychoanalysis". Another problem with psychoanalysis is you don't actually need any training to do it. Many people who do it are actually doctors - but legally, you don't need any training to be a 'psychotherapist' (certainly not in this country). Whereas you need 6yrs (now 8yrs) to be, say, a clinical psychologist (which is what I'm trying to train to be).

 

Also with regard to attachment theory, and I'm sure you could disprove this, I believe there really is something called Madonna/ * * * * * Complex, and that it's origins ARE mostly from parental influence, attachment and socialisation in and from the family although there would be other contributing factors. (I've seen numerous posts at ENA on 'Vanilla Women" - the type of woman many men choose as wives and mothers to their children - and the men can't understand why they can't stop obsessing about another type of woman who they consider as very different to their "Vanilla's". Do you really think that a purely cognitive-behavioural approach will be life-changing for them??? [/Quote]

 

I actually do think a cognitive-behavioural approach could be very beneficial .. at the end of the day, I do believe that your feelings are primarily governed by your thoughts. After all, a belief that women can be divided into unchaste prostitutes or virgins - is a belief that's built up over time - and such, can be changed with cognitive restructuring. Yes, I do believe that.

 

By the way, it's not so much that Freud or object-relations theorists or attachment theorists can be disproved - that's the whole problem. They CANT be disproved. It's like if I said "there is a santa clause". Yes, I can't prove it. But guess what, you can't disprove it. That's the problem with these theories. If they can't be falsified they can't be empirically tested for the validity of their content. What can be tested and has been tested is whether, as a treatment method, they are any good or not.

[Silverbirch]

I only studied BASIC psychology, but I specifically recall that lecturers/tutors (registered psychologists)were very clear about their beliefs that practitoners should develop their practice from at least 3, perhaps 4 various and differing frameworks - though they didn't state definitively what those frameworks should be. My ex told me many times the importance of people receiving consultation from REGISTERED psychologists as it's recognised within the field that a lot of nutters can be attracted to the field, but I also recall him adding that most of them are "weeded out" by the time it comes to registration.

 

With regard to psychotherapy and lack of quals, I do recall being acquainted with a woman many years ago who studied Eric ?Beirnes Transactional Analysis (psychotherapy) and I think she was pretty creepy. I read his book "What Do You Say After You Say Hello?" (it was a big-seller). I thought that the way he referred to his patients was outright disrespectful and some of the sweeping statements and generalisations just didn't seem right to me. I guess this is probably the type of therapy you are referring to as well. Yes, I can definitely agree, THAT is dangerous.

[Silverbirch]

Circe, just a thought on false memories and people wrongly accusing others of sexual misconduct and other offences through false memories, I wouldn't think that is purely related to psychotherapy. I've worked with people with intellectual disability and know others who have worked with children, and in working in a professional and ethical way, one needs to be very careful and sensitive as to how one communicates about some matters because for some people, the power of suggestion can b very, very dangerous. I worked with some speech therapists/pathologists who worked with the court systems in conducting interviews of children where there had been accusations of sexual abuse commited against them. The precise wording of the interviews was imperative. The same thing goes for some types of social research - questions should be open-ended so that a person is not led into giving any specific type of answer.