When Oedipus Meets Elektra

[Silverbirch]

I wanted to start this topic though I have NO idea where it will go. I noticed that there seem lots of threads on this board describing men with "commitmentphobia" started by women and with lots of contributions from other women. Sorry girls, not trying to be mean, but do you really think the guys in question/accusation are the ones with ALL the problems??? I currently have a man in my life who confided/broke down/spilled his guts that he is a commitmentphobe and has been this way as long as he can remember. Personally, I'm not sure I like that label or others either. IF you did want to put a label on it though, I think at least Oedipal Complex gives a better sounding board for some more reasonable debate besides the more popular (even if one can totally refute Freud's views): "He's not willing to marry me, have children,(then get divorced a couple of years later and then let me have my 60% settlement and then we can both go do it again with new partners)." Sound mean??? Well that's how it works out for a lot of people.

 

Secondly, yep, I have problems too - but I'm doing my best to look at them instead of just blaming him because it looks unlikely that any relationship between us or probably any other love and sex relationships with other people will work without that. Yes, I loved my father and was Daddy's girl, but he was hardly there and couldn't give his daughters the love they needed - each of us acting out our sadness in different ways - most sadly, our mother undeservedly becoming the scapegoat for our father's shortcomings.

 

I think this link might share some brief views and experiences of some women's father/daughter relationships and mother/daughter conflicts.

 

If anyone is up for reasonable fair discussion or sharing experiences on this subject, I'm here.

 

link removed

[Crazyaboutdogs]

An Oedipal/Electra complex is when there is an unnaturally strong lover-like bond with the parent of the opposite sex. I really don't think it factors in with so-called commitmentphobes. I think commitmentphobes is a very over-used term and many people assume that someone who gets married is not someone who is afraid of commitment. However, "commitmentphobe" really describes someone who is afraid of emotional closeness so they put up a barrier. Many people who get married are "commitmentphobes" because although they have legally committed to a person, they have not emotionally committed to them. In other words, the marriage could be about social and financial perks rather than any kind of personal and emotional commitment to the partner.

[Minx2012]

I am a bit confused. Where is the relationship between the Oedipal-Elektra complex to commitment phobia?

[Circe]

I think you need to be more clear about what you mean when you say "oedipus complex". The popular understanding of that term is just that it refers to a man having sexual feelings for his mother.

 

Freud discusses that as a developmental stage that moves on to fear of castration by the father, finally resolved by the boy identifying more with their father and relinquishing their sexual desire for their mother. How do you suppose this relates to "commitment phobia"?

 

Freud also goes on to discuss how the superego forms when the oedipus complex is in decline. Are your thoughts more related to this and if so, how so?

 

We need more info/elaboration on what you mean.

[Silverbirch]

One view I have heard expressed with regard to the Oedipal complex is that for the vast majority of men, what is more relevant is their fear of being controlled by women. A criticism I am familiar with is that too much emphasis is placed by many people on Freud's supposed belief's/explanation of a sexual attachment (rather than a fear of being controlled and dominated by women. Similar can be said of the Elektra complex. During Freud's time, most women of that time who had any aspirations for themselves and who did not fit in with the cultural stereotype could have been labelled as having penis envy. Literally, it may or may not have been correct. However, for those women to wish they were men, to me at least would be very understandable.

 

My understanding is that many people who have "commitmentphobia" may have a fear - sometimes justifiable - of being controlled and dominated by members of the opposite sex.

[FathomFear]

My understanding is that many people who have "commitmentphobia" may have a fear - sometimes justifiable - of being controlled and dominated by members of the opposite sex.

 

As far as I know, the fear of commitment is just as alive in gay and lesbian relationships.

 

I don't think this issue really needs or warrants a complicated Freudian analysis. Committing to a long-term monogamous relationship just isn't everyone's cup of tea. Unfortunately, that's what most societies demand of people, so countless people begrudgingly take part in it and show different levels of scepticism towards it.

[Silverbirch]

Interesting points FF.

[WilliamBlake]

Fear of Intimacy, also known as fear of abandonment/engulfment, is the root cause for many who are commitmentphobic as well. I am convinced this was the reason my ex broke up with me. There is no doubt about it, things that happen in our childhoods impact us for many years and sometimes a lifetime if they are not addressed. Since my breakup, I have met people in their 50s who can't keep a relationship going due to the fact that they are still struggling with issues of their upbringing. I had no idea these kinds of problems existed until my heart was broken and was left with so many unanswered questions.

[Silverbirch]

So sorry for you William. Yes, I think that is true about the fears of abandonment/engulfment.

[pl3asehelp]

Is Freud really the de facto standard in psychology? Still? Has this field not advanced since 1940?

[Lonewing]

"He's not willing to marry me, have children, then get divorced a couple of years later and then let me have my 60% settlement and then we can both go do it again with new partners."

 

This indeed would be a strong force alive and well today. As long as it's not 50-50, as long as it's not true equality, there's no reason to trust any woman at her word.

[Silverbirch]

Is Freud really the de facto standard in psychology? Still? Has this field not advanced since 1940?

 

Well Darls, not a psychologist meself, think that he is not the standard - he was the father - the starting point - his theories have led to a lot of tough debate.. What thought existed before Freud?? Not sure, but bet others here would know. I especially liked reading about Karen Horney, one of his students - one of the first female medical students in Europe at that time. She studied directly under him, was a good girl, got her documentation then spent the rest of her professional life refuting his theories on female sexuality. . . but she was able to utilise Freud's theories as a starting point - of something to refute. Don't know if anyone will get me.

 

Yes, I guess the purpose of this thread to try and find other ways, whether it be Freudian, neo-Freudian, effed-if-i-know Freudian (my favourite!) or anything really other then the usual pop stuff that gets written here from books that often a really disgruntled person has written, and who is making millions out of their books, and they are taken as experts. It's as though there is this belief that each person's experience would have to be exactly the same.

[Silverbirch]

This indeed would be a strong force alive and well today. As long as it's not 50-50, as long as it's not true equality, there's no reason to trust any woman at her word.

 

Hmmm. Thanks Lonewing,feel free to elaborate.

[Silverbirch]

Okay, here's a little hypothetical scenario which might give food for thought. Maybe it could help provide various different ways of looking at a similar situation - sort of.

 

A young couple who have been sweethearts for years take their first trip together to the beach. She loves the beach and knew that finally, one day, they would get to travel the long distance to the sea. The day is going beautifully. She is wearing her new bikini she especially bought for the day. The water looks so inviting. BF is lying on his towel on the sand when she asks him if he is coming in the water with her. "Later" he says. She waits, and she asks him several more times. She's becoming disgruntled. Why won't he come in the water with her. Meanwhile, he's lying back on the sand, trying to look as though nothing is wrong. Inside his head though, the committee meeting is holding a vigorous debate. What he hasn't told her is that he has had a lifelong fear of water. He so wants to go in the sea with her, but he is afraid that if he does, he will drown and die.

 

How could this situation be best handled?

[Firiel]

It's best handled by him being honest with her about his fears.

[Lonewing]

Or maybe he just doesn't like water and really doesn't like swimming - much less the beach - in the first place? and maybe in this picture the beach is his relationship with her, and the ocean is marraige, and he just doesn't want to have anythingto do with that ocean - or with her in that ocean. Or he's jsut taking hte relaitonship for whathe can, leaving it open so that when he's tired of it, he can leave.

 

Presumes too much to say he's just scared.

[Silverbirch]

It's best handled by him being honest with her about his fears.

 

I think so too Firiel. I don't know if it has just been the men I have known, but I can't recall a man ever telling me he was scared of anything. I was once in a LTR with a big supposedly macho 6feet tall body-builder, lots of tatoos, and it turned out he had a paranoid fear of spiders. He didn't ever tell me - I saw how he reacted around them. Oh sorry, that's wrong - a man has told me he is scared of being trapped by marriage and I've read here at ENA some men's fears of divorce.

[Silverbirch]

Or maybe he just doesn't like water and really doesn't like swimming - much less the beach - in the first place? and maybe in this picture the beach is his relationship with her, and the ocean is marraige, and he just doesn't want to have anythingto do with that ocean - or with her in that ocean. Or he's jsut taking hte relaitonship for whathe can, leaving it open so that when he's tired of it, he can leave.

 

Presumes too much to say he's just scared.

 

Good point Lonewing. What do you think might be some ways she would know that before she ever got to go to the beach with him?

[Lonewing]

Good point Lonewing. What do you think might be some ways she would know that before she ever got to go to the beach with him?

 

It usually comes out in simple communication. There's usually things said early on that betray such sentiments. Sometimes it very blatant but women/men ignore them anyways.

[Realitynut]

Dan would say, let's go to the beach, and I'd say, 'yipee, can't wait'....we'd laugh and he'd hold me in the water with my legs wrapped around his waist....

Oh yeah, too much info....suffice it to say, we both loved the beach...and knew it.

 

Now...maybe about going to watch a stupid car race. He'd say...'lets go with my brother and watch the races.', I'd whine, and say, "how long do they last...do we have to stay the WHOLE time????'

 

He knew I didn't particularily love car races.

 

Actually he loved to do everything I liked. Actually he loved to do everything, period.

 

I loved Victorian. He hated Victorian. But he let me paint one room pink and put my frilly stuff in it!

 

I guess it's about talking....but he soon found out, that it was ME, that if I didn't like something...he caught hell for it...

 

Was I controlling? Probably.

 

Ex husband didn't like ANYTHING except politics. I HATED Politics. We had nothing in common except our love of our kids and house. Some people don't even have that i guess....

Got married WAY to soon. Communication. I don't understand being closed off...but I've often heard it's a 'guy' thing more often than not. Not labeling here...just that women are more the pursuers, and the men are more the distancers....

 

Just the way "most' are wired. Dang...right now I can't even find someone I WANT to pursue...so they can distance themselves from me.....

[Lonewing]

I guess it's about talking....but he soon found out, that it was ME, that if I didn't like something...he caught hell for it...

 

Was I controlling? Probably.

 

I don't understand being closed off...just that women are more the pursuers, and the men are more the distancers....

 

Hit me once, shame on you, hit me twice, shame on ME!!

 

Why would we open our mouths, when we discover that anything we say contrary to what the other wants will catch hell? It may not be "Everything," but it's just enough that we can't tell what will set it off - or when we can't say no. So the solution? We just shut up, open our newspaper, and "mmmhmmm."

 

You can control our lifes, but you can't control our minds or our hearts...and once we know you're set upon doing just that, you're out in the cold. If we go to the beach, we slip off on a lunch break, or on an errand, and sit there reminescing back to the days when we hadn't learned of your controlling behavior, back when times were happy, but otherwise, we never bring it up.

[Silverbirch]

?'

 

 

 

I loved Victorian. He hated Victorian. But he let me paint one room pink and put my frilly stuff in it!

 

 

(

 

Carla, not one man I have ever been with would have allowed me to paint a room pink. I recall once when I was living with R, my exex, I bought a bed cover which was white and had small rosebuds on it. He cracked it. I had no idea it would be a big deal.

[Silverbirch]

Posted by Lonewinger

 

You can control our lifes, but you can't control our minds or our hearts...and once we know you're set upon doing just that, you're out in the cold. If we go to the beach, we slip off on a lunch break, or on an errand, and sit there reminescing back to the days when we hadn't learned of your controlling behavior, back when times were happy, but otherwise, we never bring it up.

 

Lonewinger, some people say that men's fear of being controlled by women is at the root of the Oedipal - but it's fair to say that sometimes the fear would be justified and sometimes it wouldn't. A lot of men are very sensitive about that. It would be a mistake to believe that ALL women want to control men.

[journeynow]

We all have a tendency to do this, inadvertently ending up with someone like our mother or father as a romantic partner. In the myth of Oedipus, his mother doesn't become his wife because he's attracted to her, but it's a situation where she's the reward for his solving the riddle of life and eliminating society's major problem. It sounds like the Oedipal Complex misinterprets the myth. We make it through adolescence, having rebelled against authority, thinking we've figured it all out. We find our mate, at least they are not like the parents we know, but lo and behold, our mate later becomes like our parent.

 

I don't know if the myth relates to fear of commitment. If we take Oedipus as an example, women should be concerned about marrying someone who will put her in the mother role, rather than an equal partner. For Oedipus, the mother didn't smother him, she wasn't the one who raised him, and she died, she killed herself, because of his mistake. Ugh. A caution to women, you don't want to be the mother to your partner—it's a thankless and dangerous role.

[journeynow]

Or maybe he just doesn't like water and really doesn't like swimming - much less the beach - in the first place? and maybe in this picture the beach is his relationship with her, and the ocean is marraige, and he just doesn't want to have anythingto do with that ocean - or with her in that ocean. Or he's jsut taking hte relaitonship for whathe can, leaving it open so that when he's tired of it, he can leave.

 

Presumes too much to say he's just scared.

 

OR the ocean represents emotion. Vast and fluid, can be overwhelming, has changing moods. The beach is the edge, where physical and emotion meet. He'd rather lounge at the edge, stay grounded in the physical world. She's all for diving in, emotions are her element. Good thing she can handle both elements.