DNA test

[Seraphim]

Sometimes though people who have been mistreated by their fathers are willing to give men a break. My father was really abusive and mistreated my mother and me and my brother. I try to look past this experience because I married a man and I had a son. I can not carry my own bad experiences and imprint them on my son.

[Saffron_]

That's good to know Vic.

[Seraphim]

That's good to know Vic.

 

That is the thing, we have to try not to imprint our own bad experiences on our children or assume that everyone is bad or will be bad.

[Seraphim]

Yeah things like that are scary. My mother's one cousin, her son had his son taken away by his wife and she left the country with him and told him nothing about his father or his father's family.( she divorced him because she wanted to marry someone else) When the boy was 16 he went looking for his father and found out he was dying (my second cousin as an enzyme disorder that is destroying his body and he recently had a double lung transplant. He also lost a leg to cancer.)This boy ran back to his father and even now 2 years later lives with his dad and refuses to talk to his mother and says he hates her guts for denying him the chance to have had a loving relationship with his dad and now he won't get that because his dad is dying. He found out his dad loved him all along and was looking for him.

[Moontiger]

I agree Vic. There can a lot of resentment for a child who is kept away from one of their parents, not for a legal reason, but because the other parent chose to take them away.

 

All this is reminding me of the little boy who's mother took him to Argentina and never came back.

 

OP, if you don't do this in the correct legal fashion you are looking at a lot of trouble down the road.

[einsteins_girl]

I really don't understand why everyone continues to belabor this point, acting as though Bella is going to whisk her son away to another country and never let the father see him again. She said many, many pages ago that she planned to get another paternity test, and she planned to pursue child support, and she is aware this means her ex will be able to spend time with her son. She has simply expressed her concerns and her trepidation about how her ex is going to behave around her son both because of his drinking and because he doesn't seem to want to be the father. Bella indicated that she does not think her ex is a horrible person, yet people keep putting words in her mouth implying she does. Given everything she's going through right now, I think she's being quite rational and weighing things and trying to figure out what is best. Yes, she may be changing her mind, then changing it back, but good grief, she did not expect any of this. I'm impressed she's being so level-headed, frankly. I really think everyone just needs to back off and stop acting like she's about to do something criminal. I am quite certain she's not.

 

Bella, I am so sorry this is happening. I really hoped for months now that your ex would step up and be the father he needs to be. The truth is that he has been a father all of this time, not just now because the baby has been born. If I recall, he missed appointments, he was disengaged, he couldn't afford to see you sometimes but would go to a bar and drink. He has proven time and again that he is not reliable right now, and you are hesitant to trust him. No one should blame you for this. I do not question your integrity for one second, and I know that you will rightly continue to hold your son's interests as most important.

 

My only concern is that you are questioning yourself and whether your ex is the father. I think you know in your heart that he is the father. You know that it's impossible that anyone else is the father. Don't let his behavior make you question yourself or what you know to be true.

 

I hope everything turns out well for you and your son.

[Moontiger]

Actually she has said several times she will not be seeking child support and has also indicated that she does not want the father in the child's life. Whether it is to another country, town, or just refusing to let the child get to know their other parent, it is all equally bad IMO.

 

She needs to handle this LEGALLY. I'm certainly not defending the father in this case, he doesn't seek close to be a good guy, but is up to the courts to weight the evidence and then determine what is best for the child. By not going through the court system she is taking the law into her own hands and that is something I do not support. Remember, this is only HER side of the story. This man could be a OK guy or he could be even worse than she is making him out to be. The point is, no one here knows, so to say to her, "Yes, remove the child and father from each other. Yup, that sounds good." is not the right way of thinking IMO.

[einsteins_girl]

Moontiger, Go back and read post 75. Or better yet, here you go, this is taken directly from that post, which was written by Bella:

 

I've made a plan of sorts- I'm going to wait and see his 'results' and I'm going to get my baby registered with my surname, without him on the birth certificate... then I am going to get another test done, a proper one, through proper channels, properly witnessed and done in the UK... if he is his father I'll get him to pay me through the CSA and he can have supervised visits (due to his drinking).

 

This does not sound like her depriving him of seeing his son. She has said that she doesn't want or need child support. She has a right to express those feelings. However, she has now thought about it and decided to pursue the plan above.

 

Yes, Bella is emotional, and she has been expressing those emotions and her concerns about her ex's fitness as a parent throughout this thread. However, she is not planning to do anything illegal or outside the law. Cut her some slack and give her some credit.

 

And where did I say that she should remove the father and child from each other?

[Moontiger]

Can I point out that my ex is currently unemployed- so I'd get a big fat nothing from him at the moment! I've been supporting us all financially for the last 6 months!

 

I can easily provide all the survival needs- food, shelter and warmth. I have a large, supportive family who help me with the emotional and practical support. My father has set him up a school/ college fund and will be paying in to it for the next 16 years so that he can go to a good school. I'm in the UK, so medical and dental is free. As for school trips, clubs etc...I will make the sacrifices I need to...but honestly, missing the odd trip is character building- I missed lots as a kid and it never really bothered me...I knew what was important!

 

I know he is still young- I'm only a couple of years older than him! But 16 year olds have babies and no one gets to say- 'I'm not ready for this, so I'm going to back out for a few years till I grow up, pay out a bit of money to keep my end in, and then I'll walk back in one day to a little fanfair and pick up where I left off!!'

 

I don't think our child, when he's 10 years old and has never seen daddy regularly will accept 'daddy just wasn't mature enough when I was born so he went off to do some growing up first'! Oh... 'but it's okay, I've got 5 grand in a bank account'.

 

Most of her post have been about raising the child on her own (with help from her guilt ridden father), how she doesn't trust the court system because then everything would be "out of her control", or saying how awful this guy is. No where does she talk about working out a system so father and son can bond.

 

The over all tone of many posters here, yourself included is, "Ya, its cool that you keep your child from his father. No don't bother doing this legally, don't worry about your child's resentment when he finds out you are the one who kept him from his father. Just do what feel good to YOU." This is the attitude I see from those people who do end up kidnapping their children, they don't work with the legally system, they just do what they want and convince themselves they are doing it for their child. I don't think Bella is going to kidnap her child but I am getting the impression she is not willing to foster a relationship between father and child.

 

What is so difficult about just working it out through to courts so that all parties are protected? If she doesn't go through the courts now then in a few years this guy can come back and demand time with his son, custody, etc. But if she gets everything set now with the courts she and her child will be protected down the road. Vigilantism works fine in stories but this is the real world with real consequences and THAT is what I wan Bella to understand.

 

EDIT: Both post are after #75.

[OptomisticGirl]

I think the father has made it abundantely clear he DOESN'T want a relationship with Bella's son. If he did he would have asked for a DNA test before they left the hospital (so it could be done with both people present and by a good standing place) and would have requested his name be put on the birth certificate if he wanted to wait for the DNA results before putting his name on. It's been over a month and he is just now getting around to doing a DNA test from outside the country, as if the UK can't do them, and has never made a move to put his name on the birth certificate. I'm sorry but that to me is not the actions of a man who is deserpate to have a connection with a child- it's the actions of a man who wants out of responsbility.

 

It's not my place to judge Bella if she seeks for child support or not - as the mother of the child and the primary care giver of the child (since the father is obviously saying he isn't the child) then it's her decision. If he wants to give child support then that's another thing to deal with. I agree with Bella on the front that once you have a child you can't play the 'sorry, I'm not grown up enough for this, let me come back in 10 years when I am ready'. If you can do the deed you need to accept the responsibilty. But I also believe her son needs to come to the decision his father is a dead beat - but then that puts Bella in the position of as a mother making the decision to let her son be around a father who finds it okay for a 12 year old to drink and the adults laugh it off and have a bond or cut the father off.

 

But to me this is all irrevelant because he clearly does not want to step up to the plate.

 

My advice to Bella is the same: get her own DNA test and go from there.

[BellaStranger]

I don't think I've ever said this won't be done through the court? In fact, through the court is probably the only way it will be done, cos I can't see us coming to an agreement between us after this! BUT what I will be putting to the judge is that due to his persistent drinking and leaning towards alcoholism that he can have supervised visitation, and hopefully he will agree. The courts aren't all knowing though, they do make mistakes, you still have to fight to put accross what you think is best. You see it all the time- when a judge gives one parent custody and child dies from neglect in their care...everyone sees the other parent on the news and secretly think- how could you not have known? Why didn't you DO anything? And yes, I am saying that I am perfectly capable of looking after my son myself, which is bloody lucky as chances are I will have to...but that that's just good practice- women should never be completely reliant on men these days!!

 

I just don't see as it's my responsibility to forge a relationship between father and son....that's HIS responsibility...if he wants to see his son so bad and I'm standing in his way he will have to fight me for it...in the process he will have to finally step up to the plate and may even become a better person. For example- if I say, he can't be on his own with son because he's always drinking and the judge agrees, and he says 'I'm not having this' and sorts his drinking out, and a couple of years down the line the judge allows him to have unsupervised visits- there will be nothing I can do about that. If he chooses alcohol over the relationship with his son, that is his call...it's not for me to do anything about that. Why should I lower standards of care for my son if at the end of the day he would rather have a drink than an unsupervised visit?

 

It seems frighteningly like some people are suggesting to me I should sit back and allow everything to be on his terms out of a desperate need to facilitate a father-son relationship? I should be okay with him disappearing for a few weeks/ months/ years now (because he's young and might not be ready, or might not be good with babies) and he can walk back in when he feels like it (because he won't always be like this and I can just wait for him to grow up). I don't have a right to question how much he feels is appropriate to drink when he is looking after a baby...this is a person who told me once that he didn't consider a bottle of wine as having 'had a drink'...maybe I should wait for him to drop the baby on his head before I'm allowed to criticise?

 

I can only imagine the outrage there would be here if I was here saying 'I've just had this baby but I kind of don't want to give up drinking and can't really be bothered to look after it...therefore, I'd like to deny it's mine and fabricate some evidence that it's not...failing that, I'll just take a few years out, while other people bring him up, pay a bit of child support and come back when I'm ready and everyone can bend over backwards to make me feel like I'm welcome and can have the best possible relationship with my son'. No, I can't see that going down well, I would be being told I should have thought about that before I had the baby, that this behaviour would result in my son going in to care and that's unfair, or maybe that I should think of adoption (the forfeiting of parental responsibility) if I don't think I am ready to commit to a baby!!

[Moontiger]

I'm another vote for facilitating the relationship between the child and the father to the best of your ability.

 

However, facilitating does not mean forcing, of course.

 

Yeah things like that are scary. My mother's one cousin, her son had his son taken away by his wife and she left the country with him and told him nothing about his father or his father's family.( she divorced him because she wanted to marry someone else) When the boy was 16 he went looking for his father and found out he was dying (my second cousin as an enzyme disorder that is destroying his body and he recently had a double lung transplant. He also lost a leg to cancer.)This boy ran back to his father and even now 2 years later lives with his dad and refuses to talk to his mother and says he hates her guts for denying him the chance to have had a loving relationship with his dad and now he won't get that because his dad is dying. He found out his dad loved him all along and was looking for him.

 

 

Bella I agree OG that your first step is to get you own DNA test done. These two posts are ones that I think you should read over a few times. Nurturing a relationship between father and son simple means not putting up roadblocks that don't need to be there. Right now, based on what you are saying about his drinking, you should be worried and seeking full custody or only supervised visits. But he should be given the chance to do the right thing. People can and do change and the last thing you want is your child looking at you in 15-16 years and blaming you for not letting letting him and his father bond.

[BellaStranger]

I've already said that my next step is another DNA test, done properly...nothing can be decided in any direction without that!!

 

No decitions need to be made here and now...there will be a few weeks for cooling off!

[FarthestEdge]

BUT what I will be putting to the judge is that due to his persistent drinking and leaning towards alcoholism that he can have supervised visitation, and hopefully he will agree.

 

Good luck with that. I hope you have documented proof, because just saying so has a greater chance of being seen by a judge as being a vindictive baby-momma trying to deny a father his rights.

 

You say "I think he's an alcoholic"

EX says "That's not true your honor"

Judge says "Will you refrain from heavily drinking when you have the child?"

Ex says "Yes I will"

Judge says "Ok then"

 

You would be far better to just ask the court to impose a condition that neither of you drink while the child is in your care/custody. And if you aren't willing to hold yourself to that standard, you aren't going to convince a judge to hold HIM to it.

 

I just don't see as it's my responsibility to forge a relationship between father and son....that's HIS responsibility... if he wants to see his son so bad and I'm standing in his way he will have to fight me for it...in the process he will have to finally step up to the plate

 

As your childs parent, protecting his best interests, even when they conflict with your own is ALWAYS your responsibility. That's what parents do, they suck it up and do what is best for their kid(s).

 

This makes your view on it very clear. Not only do you have no intention of facilitating any kind of relationship between your son and his father, but you have every intention of making it as difficult as possible. He's going to have to "fight" you for the right to see his child? And is "Stepping up to the plate" a euphimism for coughing up the cash first? Why does he have to 'fight'? Aren't you supposed to be on the same team when it comes to your child?

 

Listen, it would be nice if he would step up on his own, the way you want him to. It would be nice if he would just get a decent job and pay his support. I'm not saying I have much respect for the guy at the moment. Sounds like he has a lot of growing up to do.

 

But he is still your son's father. You chose to have a baby with him. You should be looking for solutions that don't involve shutting him out. Even if he doesn't want "in" right now. If he never does, let that be HIS choice, not yours. Never let your son be able to look at you and say "YOU kept him from ME"

[BellaStranger]

Wow... You can manipulate almost anything....and are near on obsessed with money!! Because once again, who said anything about money? By stepping up to the plate I meant emotionally... by being sober, reliable and consistent in his treatment of his son...nothing to do with money! Your views are exactly why I persist in not wanting money from him, because when you ask money from someone there is a perception that you owe them and have to accept whatever behaviour they throw at you. My ex might be a young man, but he is still a grown man and if he wants a relationship with his son it is up to him to forge one... I will facilitate it as long as I believe it is in my sons best interest or the court forces it... Not because he, much less you, tell me I have to! Only I know my character and his... I'm upset at the moment but I am never vindictive or over emotional... I'm more than capable of making rational decisions based on my knowledge to make good decisions for my son... and like others have said, they won't all be right, but as long as I do what I believe in at the time I will be able to justify it to him when he is older! If I go against my better judgement and resents me for that- that will be much harder to deal with! I'm not going to let someone in a forum make me doubt myself by twisting my words, I know who I am and I know my intentions.

[BellaStranger]

Oh, and I never, ever drink whilst I have care of my child... not even one and not even if he's babysat but I'm going to be looking after him on my own later on... I would have thought that was obvious! And what most people would do without being asked? That is the basic level of care I expect for my son. I don't know who in their right mind would drink whilst being the primary carer for a newborn baby? It just seems highly irresponsible!!

[FarthestEdge]

Bella, I am not twisting your words, I am quoting them. Don't get mad at me for repeating what you yourself wrote.

 

I asked for clarification on the "Stepping up to the plate" (Notice it was phrased in the form of a question) because a lot of people connect access with paying child support. I don't. Children are not commodities to be bought and sold. So I am glad to see that was NOT your point.

 

Nor am I telling you what you MUST do. I am pointing out the anger and vengeance that I see in the words you write. If it is not your intention to make him 'fight' you for his natural right to see his child, then why say it is?

 

In any event, we are going in circles here. I don't think you are in an easy position here, nor do I believe there is one answer that does NOT have a risk of serious long-term consequences. I don't envy you this. But you cannot control your ex, or the courts. You can only control how you behave in the face of this.

 

I will not tell you it's a good thing to try to shut him out of your sons life. But yes, it is your choice to try if you wish. As I said, we all get to reap the rewards and suffer the consequences of our parenting choices.

 

I just think you are being driven by your emotions more than is helpful at the moment- for you and your child.

[BellaStranger]

By fight I do not mean put deliberate obsticals in the way- I mean raise genuine and founded concerns that he will then have to address to move forwards... I think it's obvious what I mean, and quite a few people here have understood that, so your right, it is going round in circles to explain it again. At the end of the day, mothers have the right to protect their children, and the courts recognise that... fathers for justice aren't swinging off the houses of parliament in their batman costumes because the system is fair... it massively favours the mother and whilst I don't necessarily agree with that, (I know people in horrible situations where the mother is by far the worse parent but the courts have still leant towards the mother) it is still a fact.

 

I believe one of the worst things a parents can do is walk in and out of a childs life showing no consistency in actions or emotions, it leads them to feel insecure in those they should trust the most...and teaches them far too young that the people you love won't always be around... to me it is worse than total absenteeism and I will endeavour to protect my son from that. In your opinion never knowing your father is worse- but that's your opinion!

[reidqa]

Wow this is one hot emotion topic.

 

 

I say await the paternity results, if his then support/visitation is commn.

 

If not whatever will be will be.

 

So Bella we will await the verdict.

[OptomisticGirl]

Oh, and I never, ever drink whilst I have care of my child... not even one and not even if he's babysat but I'm going to be looking after him on my own later on... I would have thought that was obvious! And what most people would do without being asked? That is the basic level of care I expect for my son. I don't know who in their right mind would drink whilst being the primary carer for a newborn baby? It just seems highly irresponsible!!

 

This is what I'm not understanding either. I'm all for father's having rights - as many people know - and believe every parent has rights, but when you do something (ie, drink while caring for your newborn child when you have a history of classifying 'a bottle of wine' as not drinking) yeah, you kind of lose the right because you are doing something that could HARM that child. I'd wonder if the responses would be the same if a father came on here talkign about how the mother of his child drinks while caring for their son - oh, just let her have her rights and visitation.

[FarthestEdge]

OG

That is the OP's claim. It is not 'fact'. Moreover, if every parent who ever had a drink while supervising their child lost access to that child, there'd be a LOT of orphaned children running around.

 

Yes, she needs to protect the child. But IS he REALLY going to get plastered every time he is in sole custody of the child? The fact that he did it when they were together proves nothing- SHE was there. It is not proof of what he would do when alone with the baby. Both DH and myself will have the occasional drink, and often have a glass of wine. If DH wants to have more than one or two, then I don't drink at all, and vice versa. Are you coming to take MY kids away from me?

 

Bella is angry, hurt and disappointed in her ex. Her judgement on his character is severely tainted by the failure of their relationship. If he showed up to pick up the child and was drunk, then yeah, she shouldn't hand him over. But to presume that he will always be plastered for the next 18 years and should therefore have no rights as a father is extreme. And I think she will be disappointed to find that the courts expect proof of a serious alcholol problem. Being the mother might give her the edge in court, but it doesn't mean she gets to trample all over his rights. Courts do not take away parental rights lightly.

 

Unless he's had a string of DUI's and drunken disorderly convictions, she's going to have a hard time convincing a judge that he should have NO parental rights. All she is going to to is escalate the adversarial attitude between them, and cost them both a fortune in legal bills.- which SHE could end up paying if the judge decides it was more for retribution than for the child's real protection. NOT saying she is...what matters is what the judge thinks.

 

He's looking for an escape now, because he's young, scared and overwhelmed by the responsibility. Once (if) he's proven to be the father, he'll adjust and may even turn out to be a great dad. It might take him a year, even two...but he still has a right to that chance.

[OptomisticGirl]

I guess I"m just of the mind that when you are taking care of the child there should be NO drinking when you are the only one watching them. That's the way I was raised at least. She doesn't know what he will do but aren't parents suppose to also think ahead of what MIGHT happen? You never know your child will be abducted walking alone from school but you know it COULD happen. You don't have to meet pedophiles that may interact with your kids to take this step to prevent it, do you? Of course not. Could Bella be being too over protective and emotional? Sure, but it's still her right as the child's mother to try to make her son's environment as safe as possible - and if she has a concern that his father may be drinking while caring for him, she has the right to bring that up. Whether someone sees it as excessive drinking or a baby momma trying to rail road the father, if she didn't at least bring up her concern she would be failing to try to protect her child.

 

Being young and scared is not a good enough excuese to say 'oh, sorry, here's some money, I"ll be back in 3 years'. When you become a parent - both mothers and fathers - it stops becoming about you and becomes about that child. Does Bella need to think about this when she isn't emotional? Certaintly - but the father also needs to step up and ACT like a father. If he wants to better himself while still seeing his son more power to him - but I'm just baffled that people think someone can walk out of a child's life becuase 'they aren't ready', and then walk back in years later and still have a right. They gave that up when they couldn't step up the first time!

[Moontiger]

FE and OG, you both raise very good points.

 

FE, I'm glad you pointed out that he was drinking while Bella was there to watch the child. This is how it works in my home as well, I live with my sister, her partner and their child. If they want to have a glass of wine or two at dinner, I watch the baby, if I want to have beer, one them watches the baby. As long as there is a sober person in charge of the child I don't see the problem (unless of course the person drink because violent etc). I also agree with you that (as with many threads here) this is ONLY Bella's POV so we must take very thing with a gain of salt. I'm not saying that this guy does or does not have a drinking problem, the fact is no one on here knows. So to simple label him and unfit drunk in a bit unfair of us I think.

 

OG, I completely agree with about how once you have a child nothing is about you anymore. It doesn't sound like this guy has gotten to that point (again, from Bella's POV). And mothers should protect their children, I just question Bella's motives at the moment for many of the same reasons FE pointed out. Again, this is why we have courts to work all of this out.

 

Bella, I am very glad you are going to go through the courts on this. By doing that you will be able to protect yourself and your child much more effectively than if you did not. I will say that when you said you were going to make him "fight" you it did come off as just throwing road blocks in his path for no other reason than you do not like him. I'm very happy this is not the case. Good luck with everything. I hope it all works out and your child can have a good relationship with BOTH his parents.

[FarthestEdge]

OG

 

My point was, when they were together he WASN'T the only one watching the child. Bella was there. And apparently she's swearing off alcohol for the next 18 years. I was practically DH's personal driver for the better part of 6 years when I was pregnant, breastfeeding, trying to become pregnant or recovering from pregnancy..so HE didn't need to watch his consumption, because I wasn't drinking. I never once presumed that DH would allow himself to get drunk while watching our children. Honestly, if I ever thought he would, I wouldn't have had a child with him.

 

And don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that it IS right of him to walk now and come back later. Far from it. As I said, I don't have much respect for him based on what I read here. What I am saying is that the child has a right to know his own parents and benefit from whatever they have to offer. And the courts generally agree with this. But because he isn't responding perfectly now, Bella seems to think it entitles her to lock him out of the childs life forever. I think this is short-sighted. If a woman considers abortion when she first gets pregnant- should her child be taken away from her for the rest of it's life? Has she "proven" she isn't capable of bonding with the child, or keeping the child safe from danger? Of course not. People make mistakes, and even fail terribly..it doesn't mean that's who they are going to be for the rest of their lives.

 

By the way, saying I disagree with Bella's approach does not mean I am supporting HIS actions. This isn't about what he should do. He isn't here asking for input. Bella cannot control what he does. She can only control how she responds to it.

[lavenderdove]

The thing i get reading this thread is that nothing needs to get decided overnight. First, she needs to determine whether he is indeed the father of the child, then go from there.

 

If he's not the father, then all of this is moot. If he is the father, then he may have a change of heart and decide to act better. I've also seen men who want nothing to do with infants, decide they do want to be involved in the child's life once the child is old enough to talk and interact more with the father.

 

So nothing needs to be decided until the paternity issue is resolved, and IF he's the father, then they can start addressing financial issues and whether he will be involved in the child's life or not. If he is the father, even if she wants to keep him away, she can't legally unless he agrees to stay away, otherwise he does have paternal rights whether his name is on the birth certificate or not if he can prove paternity.

 

So lots of issues here, but best tackled one at a time after the child's paternity is firmly established.