Reaction to Smoker?

[Batya33]

I did want her to hear but I didn't use a sarcastic tone. And then if she realized that I was in a position of having to take my child away (which would have frustrated him -which is fine, that's life but if it can be avoided, all the better) because of her smoke and wanted to move that would be great. I know if I was she I would want to know. Also I didn't want to risk a confrontation with a person who might get angry when I was alone with my child and couldn't have gotten away quickly. As I wrote I've encountered people who get angry when asked to stop smoking in illegal places.

I think my child and I have more of a right to be in an enclosed space in a park than a person who chooses to smoke at that moment. That person can be there too and not smoke (put the cigarette out for example) -- for example, let's say I had been there and was screaming into a cell phone, perhaps cursing - (not that I would but if) -my right to be screeaming in public should be less important than someone else's right to takeher child to see the monument -I can move away or hang up the phone and still be there. It's not just about ther person's phsical right to be there but about doing your best (whether legally or ethically) not to ruin someone else's experience with noise or smoke pollution.

[penelope13]

if she was not yet done looking at the monument (which has a lot of engraving/words) then she of course should have stayed until she was done or said something like "I just want to read this more closely" - from what I could tell she already had been there awhile.

 

(I have never tried a cigarette in my life)

 

You expected her to do the mature thing and express if she was still busy looking at the monument, however you were not able to give her the same direct courtesy by simply asking her how much longer she would like to look at the monument.

 

Since this is one of the few spots where someone can legally smoke she had as much a right as you being there and taking as much time as she wanted. I don't think it's detrimental to a child to learn that sometimes you have to wait and respect someone else's right (as it sounds it's not even the first time you went to this particular monument).

[OptomisticGirl]

It doesn't have to be in a sarcastic tone though. Just the simple fact it was blatantly obvious you thought your child had more of a right to be there than they did. I could understand if they were like five feet from a see saw or monkey bars, things that are clearly children's areas. But a monument? I wouldn't see as a child's favorite place to play and would be severely miffed if someone made it known in a roundabout away they would be inconvinced by taking their child else were. You could even look at it as smoking or not, she has a right to have an 'experience' there as well which you impended on.

[Seraphim]

I totally support you. I did smoke in my teens too for a year and then quit. I do not have my son around smokers either when he was a baby or even now and he is a teen. I won't let anyone smoke in my house. I won't take him to the house of anyone who smokes. Where I live smoking is almost illegal everywhere, even most public places so I usually do not have to deal with it often. I do not think you were out of line. You were not rude, you were protecting the right of your child to have clean lungs and not be exposed to smoke. If she wants to poison herself fine and dandy but other people do not have to be exposed to her addiction and the consequences of it. I know for my son, because he is allergic to cig smoke, his eyes swell shut, I do not want him exposed. So the rights of other people to me at that point become less important than the health of my child. They have NO consequences for the suffering of my child child's health when his eyes swell shut but he has the consequences for their smoking habit.Good for you.

[Batya33]

It doesn't have to be in a sarcastic tone though. Just the simple fact it was blatantly obvious you thought your child had more of a right to be there than they did. I could understand if they were like five feet from a see saw or monkey bars, things that are clearly children's areas. But a monument? I wouldn't see as a child's favorite place to play and would be severely miffed if someone made it known in a roundabout away they would be inconvinced by taking their child else were. You could even look at it as smoking or not, she has a right to have an 'experience' there as well which you impended on.

 

I wrote several times that I was careful not to use a sarcastic tone - I used a neutral tone and explained that there was smoke there not that there was a smoker. I don't think we had more of a "right" to be there than she did but all else equal I felt comfortable letting her know indirectly that we were staying away because of the smoke so that if shewas done or didn't mind moving, that would be great -for which I thanked her. I actually don't think that someone has a right to experience something like that momnument while smoking because it meanst that anyone who is allergic or bothered by smoke then cannot enter that area until she is done. There is plenty of room there for several people to look at the monument and walk around so of course she has the right to be there -but to smoke, or otherwise block access (which in effect she did) -she might have the technical "right" but I know in her shoes I would want to know ASAP if my behavior (not just my presence)was impeding someone else from entering.

 

I agree with you that it's great for children to learn to wait -that's why I wrote that (you tend sometimes to ignore or change what I write, so just clarifying) -but in this case I preferred to see if perhaps she wouldn't mind putting out her cigarette- or moving away with it -so my child wouldn't have to be frustrated and cranky - didn't seem to be an essential lesson at that moment.

 

Penelope -you are right. In reality I am fearful of confrontation when I am alone with my child especially if I would need to get away quickly. In the past I have been yelledat by smokers, had smoke blown in my face (when I coughed as I walked by) and been treated rudely. Of course this person might have been perfectly nice if approached but I preferred to try an indirect way first.

[OptomisticGirl]

What if she had minded about moving? What would you have done then? And as I have said before, it doesn't have anything to do with the TONE you use. The person wasn't an idiot. They clearly knew you wanted them to leave because they were impending on your child's play area when in fact smoker or not, they are still human. They have a right to enjoy the monument in whatever way they want just as you, as a parent, have the right to not want your kid around smoke. If you wanted her to put it out or move else were then say that to her, not under the passive aggressive disguise of telling your child they cant go there loud enough so the person hears. If you dont want confrontation then walk away.

 

Example. Your in a reatuarnt that doesnt cater specifically for children but is still an atmosphere were kids can come (a resturant like.chili's I guess). Your child becomes cranky and starts showing out. The childless couple next to you starts making commentes about the noise. Now, I for one woulr back YOUR right to take your children wherever you want to eat. And no, having a noisy child is not the same risk health wise as having a kid BUt Like smoking, having children is a decision you make. So for arguments sake one could say your lifestyle choice-having children-impeded on someone who didn't make those same lifestyle choices.

 

How would you feel being made to feel like you didn't belong somewere when you have every right to be there?

[rocio]

I think my child and I have more of a right to be in an enclosed space in a park than a person who chooses to smoke at that moment.

 

Here is the point. You said it loudly enough so that she could hear because you wanted to express this opinion - that your son had more of a right to enjoy that space than she did. I find it socially awkward and rude. You have your opinions about smoking in public places, and it's certainly your right to express them out loud if you so choose. But it is rude and awkward. It sounds like she was polite and graceful and, honestly, if I were you, I would have felt embarassed at her grace and your lack of it.

 

For the record, I wouldn't expose my child to smoke either, so I see where you're coming from. I'm not necessarily saying that what you did was wrong or right, but it certainly was not socially gracious.

[Batya33]

I agree it wasn't socially gracious. If she hadn't offered to move I would have said nothing at all and took my child in another direction. I work VERY hard, despite my right to be in public places, to make sure my child and his stuff(i.e. stroller) doesn't bother anyone. I immediately move the stroller over on the sidewalk if I see someone coming (and most of the time they move away first so I don't have to, to which I respond with a sincerely grateful thank you. If he makes noise in a restaurant (very rare) we remove him, period. I don't care if the table near us has children or not - I don't want him to bother others. If he tries to touch another child or another child's things in the playground I prevent it as much as humanly possible and I say to him so the parent/caregiver can hear "that's not yours, please don't touch it" or similar. So yes I technically have the right to be in public with my child but I have a very strong sense of not impeding on others.

 

So you might ask what of the smoker? I don't feel badly if a smoker who has a cloud of smoke that means that anyone else who wants to walk into a space to look at a monument will be engulfed, then has to put out the cigarette or move. Having said that, no I wouldn't have asked her to move and no I didn't mind her knowing that her smoke was preventing my and my child from entering the space (even though there would have been room for us without the smoke).

 

And I am happy to confront when I feel it's warranted. Like today when, again, someone let their dog loose in the playground (illegal) and the dog started jumping on my child with the owner on the other side of the playground. I screamed to the owner to leash her dog, was met with "oh he's fine", threatened to call the police with the response "shut up" and they then all left the park thank goodness. It was very scary -I've been bitten before and I don't want a strange dog jumping on my child like that. So, yes I'm ready to confront when the behavior is illegal and puts me/my child in harm's way. I am less comfortable asking a smoker to stop smoking so we can look at a monument right then instead of five minutes later. But if she chooses to leave upon hearing 'sorry,we can't go there, there's smoke there" I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Next time I probably would walk by so she could see us in the vicinity and perhaps gather why we weren't entering the space or if it was practical I would try to redirect my child and come back alter.

[OptomisticGirl]

I'd leave to though if someone were being rude in a passive aggressive way though. She clearly wasn't one of the 'bad' smokers who wants to endanger children, she left. You got your way... no reason to lose sleep over it of course. You talk about how you want smokers to respect your right to not want your child subjected to their choice or at least have consideration for you and your child (nothing wrong with that, btw) but if you want that then no matter if they are killing themselves with their choice if you want them to respect you, you have to respect them as human beings as well. And you come accross as you don't by saying things such as 'I think my child and I have more of a right to be in an enclosed space in a park than a person who chooses to smoke at that moment.'

 

Actually, you don't have more of a right. If you want to get down to semantics the smoker was there first. How long would she have stood there smoking? Five minutes? Your child couldn't have waited five minutes to play at the monument? I think that would have been a perfect time to teach patience and that sometimes in life people do things you can't stand but you RESPECT them as fellow human beings. Instead they saw that when you think you have more of a right than someone else simply because you don't do the same thing they do, you can passive aggressivly get your way.

 

The dog incident you had every right to be that way.. the dog was harming your child. The smoker wasn't at that moment because your child wasn't near them. It would be different if he had been playing and the smoker lit one up next to him without regard to him. I would have been the most sarcastic mother in the world if someone just lit a cig up without regard to my child. But instead you impeded on someone else's space simply because your child couldn't wait to play at that one particular area. Will you do the same when another child is playing on your child's favorite see saw and he wants to play on it RIGHT THEN?

 

And as I said in my first post, the fact you didn't want your child around smoke is nothing wrong. I am a none smoker and would never allow my child around smoke. However, you have to have respect for other people, even when they go against what you believe is right. You had bad encounters with smokers in the past and yet you chose this time to have a bad encounter with this smoker. The next time this smoker encounters a none smoker they could be mean to them because of their experience with you. Karma is a never ending cycle.

[Elaine Marley]

I disagree that Batya and her child didn't have more right than the smoker to be in that space. Batya didn't say they had more right than the smoker to be in the park; she said they had more right than the smoker to be in an enclosed space. I agree with this. I only quit smoking two years ago, but as a smoker I knew better than to light up in a public, enclosed space. Second, she said to her child that they couldn't go there at that moment because there was smoke. What's wrong with telling her child the truth? She's not teaching the child to be passive-aggressive. Do you really think that's what her child would take away from that exchange? She said she "didn't care" if she were overheard because that woman really should not have been smoking in an enclosed space and making everyone else wait on her while she finished her cigarette. This is a public monument, not her living room, and she is the one impeding on others' space. It would be different if it were somewhere else in the park, like under a tree as was mentioned earlier. And if Batya has had bad experiences with smokers before, I can understand why she wouldn't want a nasty scene to take place in front of her son. I really don't think this has anything to do with "teaching patience." I'm really surprised at the tone of some of these posts, and from nonsmokers at that. Batya admitted it wasn't exactly socially gracious, but I don't think she was outright rude. The smoker in question probably forgot about the incident five minutes later.

[Blue Dreamer]

This is, and will remain, a free country. Just like the smoker can smoke, you can easily walk away. If you expect others to serve you because of your child, you clearly do not respect the freedoms already provided for you in this country by decades and centuries of other peoples every day hard work.

 

If you are honestly concerned about your children's welfare as a result of second hand smoke, you must also surely respect others freedom to live their lives. Surely you have done your research to understand that the friendly US government has worked hard and taxed the country to death to help provide you and your child a world of non-smoking environments accross the country. It is our hard earned tax dollars, along with lost business income, currently allowing you to expand your childs horizons with no concerns about second hand smoke.

 

Do a little thorough medical research, not just what a biased news center reports. A slight exposure to second hand smoke will be naturally eliminated from the human body in extremely short fashion and will have absolutely no long term impact on say, an infant.

 

I hope to expand and maximize the understanding of true freedom and friendship this country USA and especially the ENA forum, are all about.

[Batya33]

I couldn't easily walk away - if I could have I would have, no problem. I would have had to drag my toddler away or probably carry him away, likely crying/complaining. Which is fine too but as I wrote above I didn't feel that it was essential to frustrate him so in these particular circumstances. There's no way, ever, I will walk him into a cloud of smoke unless it is some sort of life/death emergency. Ever. We pass by smokers all the time and I do my best to veer him/the stroller as far away as possible and I move by quickly -but to stand in a cloud of smoke with ashes being flicked near him. Nope and if I saw a parent doing that I would (inwardly) cringe unless it was a life/death situation.

And by the way infants and toddlers are far more sensitive to smoke/chemicals, etc than grown ups - and that's mostly common sense. I'm also not sure if he's allergic to smoke and I'd prefer not to find out that way especially.

 

And of course this is a free country -I had the freedom -socially graceful or otherwise -to explain to my toddler why we couldn't go there and she had the freedom to then make a choice of how to react. It's nice that she reacted the way she did and if she hadn't, see frustrated toddler example above, and life would go on (probably longer for me than for her, unfortunately).

[Batya33]

I didn't expect her to move- never wrote or meant that. Good luck having a less than 2 year old wait five minutes (or two) waiting to walk over to somewhere they're dragging you to. Basically not possible and what I would have had to do was carry him away to another area of the park to redirect his attention. My purpose in posting this was to see whether how I went about signaling to her that we couldn't go there because of the smoke was the appropriate way to go about it (or whether I should have given up right away and left).

 

And yes I think I do have more of an ethical right (ethical meaning a question of manners/courtesy) to be in an enclosed space where there is room for more than one person than a person who chooses to take up that much space with her cloud of smoke. Legal right -of course not -which is why I never would have insisted she move and why I felt uncomfortable asking her to move. Having said that, I wouldn't have asked her to move or been upset with her if she ignored my telling my toddler that we couldn't go there because there was smoke. It's the same as if I had had my toddler in a stroller and blocked the entrance to the space for more than the time it took me to move the stroller to the side to let others pass. If I did that without realizing I was blocking or thinking that no one else was around I'd want to know -directly or indirectly, ASAP if I was blocking someone else and then I would move ASAP.

 

Oh and I don't think we had a bad encounter at all -it wasn't the nicest either -she was a bit miffed but that was the end of it. As far as karma, yesterday a mother told her pre-teen kids that they could not use their scooters on the playground equipment because there were too many small kids around- I overheard her say this as my son and I walked by and I smiled at her and said "thanks!". Her children are perfectly in their rights to use the equipment that way and they complained about her direction(they had not hurt anyone but then the little kids probably couldn't use the equipment right then) - of course everyone could have told their little kids they had to wait since the older kids technically had the right to play that way, but that parent was thinking of others and not her "rights" and didn't want the other parents to have to have an awkward confrontation.

 

And I'd be fine if someone treated me the way I treated the smoker as in "sorry we can't go there, the stroller is blocking the entry" or "that lady is talking loudly on her phone so let's wait till she's through" etc. Bring on the karma, lol.

 

I know I didn't impede on her space -she heard me and then she had the choice as to how to react. She could have stayed and put her cigarette out of course.

[OptomisticGirl]

Then to answer the question on why you posted no, I not think it was appropriate how you did it.

 

Yes, but one could argue you yourself were only thinking of your percieved "rights" when you not so socially graciously let the smoker know she was in YOUR enclosed monument space and weren't thinking of the smoker. But because she smokes she is beneath a normal human and therefore doesn't deserve the same right to be in a place, correct? Because God forbid she wants to lite one up while enjoying a monument, as is her American freedom because she intruded on your son's space. Sure, she could have lit one oustside the monument, smoked, then enjoyed the monument. Same way your child could have waited five minutes to enjoy his monument, screaming or pitching a fit or not. It amazes me how kids get what they want so much nowadays. My mother never let me around smoke as a child but if that had been us and I started pitching a fit, I would have been told right then I didn't always get what I want and I could play somewere else. You yourself said if she hadn't of moved you would have just walked away. But you didn't want to have to deal with a screaming child so the smoker got interrupted doing what she has a right to do so your rights could come first. As I said, if you want smokers to respect your decision to not smoke and to no have your child around smoke, then at some point you have to respect them as fellow human beigns to have the same rights as you do, they are just doing something that is killing themselves in the meantime.

 

She had no choice on how to react, you didn't give her one! If she hadn't of put the cig out and moved she would have been a horrible person because she wasn't thinking of YOUR rights. I personally always try to respect the rights of other human beings even if they are doing something I detest but hey, if you can sleep at night more power to you. Just remember it the next time a smoker is rude to you that they are only doing unto you what you have done to others.

[OptomisticGirl]

The fact she told her child they couldn't go is not what is passive aggressive about it, the fact she said it just loud enough for the smoker to hear is. She very well could have told her child that as they were walking away. You can't complain about people not showing decent human courtsey to you and then hide behind 'what they do is harmful' in order to not do the same to others.

[eternalsunrise]

I think this situation went quite well. You don't have to apologize for your stance as even that woman knows the well known dangers of smoking. We don't have to pretend something is healthy when it is not in order to be PC. That lady was very kind to leave. And if she hadn't have left, you'd have waited for your turn, I'm sure. The whole thing went down without any issues, in my opinion. Smoking is legal. We all realize that. You two handled the situation well. I like how you talk with your son, too, by the way. Kids should be spoken to regularly even before they can speak. Kudos to you.

[Batya33]

OG - I would have been fine if she hadn't moved and of course she had a choice because my tone was neutral and she wasn't asked or confronted. Since you continue to twist what I write and exxagerate it -whether intentionally or otherwise, I'll assume that perhaps this triggered some personal issues for you (sure seems to from your last post). I am sorry if it did but since you're starting to go down the path of exxagerating/attacking, let's agree to disagree about this situation (the parenting issues you raised are kind of off topic perhaps you will start a thread about your views on parenting today, would be interesting.

 

I will say with all sincerity that I hope when you have an almost 2 year old that he/she will wait patiently for five minutes to do something he/she really wants to do without being given an alternate thing to do/place to go other than "sorry we have to wait our turn -it will only be five minutes, let's stand right here and wait ok?". I have never ever met a child that age who could do that but anything is possible. I've also never heard anyone who wanted children as you do express that opinion but perhaps you've experienced it with other kids. I'm sure you'll make a great parent unlike the other parents you criticized in your post (and I mean that with all sincerity, lest you jump to the conclusion I didn't). As for me I'm a work in progress, humbled often and learning every day as my child is too I hope. That's one reason I posted this thread and I am not surprised that for some like you it expanded to other areas and to a discussion of legal/psuedo legal "rights".

[DrKitten]

When I smoke in public, I always put out my cig or hold it away if there are kids near. If I overheard a parent say what you said, I would apologize and move or put it out immediately. I wouldn't be offended, but it may come accross that way if I'm trying to my smokey self out of the way quickly. I don't think it was wrong of you to let her hear if you weren't trying to be offensive and were okay with going somewhere else. Smokers know the risks associated and should know that some people just don't want to walk through a cloud of smoke. Some people do tend to take these things personally though.

 

I understand and exercise my right to smoke, but I also know many people are uncomfortable with it and try to be courteous of their space. Even if there are no kids around, I try to keep several feet away from non-smokers. It's just the polite thing to do.

[sweetpea03]

I know when I was in New york, there were a lot of people who smoke outside all over the place. Though when a smoker was in an area where that was "touristy", many were very polite and just moved. Yea, some can take things personally, but for the most part it's never a big deal or problem. I asked a smoker to move there and he had no problem just going to a different location. If you don't make it out to be a big deal, then it won't be.

[OptomisticGirl]

I apolgoze if it came accross as attacking you Batya. It didn't bring up a personal issue for me, as I said I don't smoke. but I do believe strongly Im everyone having rights even if I don't agree with what they are doing. Sometimes in trying to express that, I come accross strongly, more so than I intend. I never meant to imply you were a horrible mother.

 

And I know telling a two year old to do something else or they have to wait is never an easy thing. I suppose it comes from how i was raised. If I pitched w tantrum my mother quickly silenced me and told me it wasn't all about making me happy and content. I know its not easy to silence a child but I saw it as a time it coild be. But again that is my opinion and not everyone would. Again, i apologize if it came accross as attacking.

[Seraphim]

Of course the woman had a choice about how to react. She did not have to huff off. Batya never told her to leave, she was explaining to her son why he could not go there at that moment. She did not force the woman to feel anything or how to react in any way. She did NOT impede on the woman's rights so ever and even said they would have waited their turn.

 

Second hand smoke IS dangerous. People think oh it is just one time. In the scope of a life it is NOT just one time. My son is allergic to ANY smoke and his eyes start to swell in less than a minute. This IS dangerous for some people. I myself am now asthmatic because of some one else's second hand smoke and have been since childhood.

 

There is also a strange idea that whatever people want to do is a "right". Not everything is a right.

[OptomisticGirl]

We will all have to agree to disagree on who has more rights. As i said, if they had been standing there and the smoker walked up to them and lit one up the smoker would be impeding because they were there first. I see the situation as the smoker was there first therefore the situation is reversed. That is only my opinion however.

 

And as I said there was nothing wrong with explaining why they couldn't go in, just the manner in.which.it was given. Again, simply my opinion. Perhaps I'm old school in my belief on expectations of children due to how i was raised. As I said, if that had been my mother and i and i pitched a fit because I couldn't go there i would.have been told I don't always get my way or what i want and been brought to another distraction, wheth3r I was kicking and screaming or not. Well, I never would have done that anyway since it took one good whipping in public for me to never show out again.

 

Again, just a different style of parenting.

[Seraphim]

Well I do not believe in hitting children in public or otherwise.

 

However, her parenting is not in question here. She was asking about the reaction between her and the smoker. It is not even about rights. She said she would have waited, you DO however have to tell children what expectations are about what is going to happen. She told her son he might have to wait a bit and why. The other woman did not need to be offended. She had every right to protect her child from smoke and the other woman had every right to look as long as she wanted. She did not infringe on that. I would certainly not smack my kid because they had to wait for something. A two year old has limited waiting skills, smacking them is not going to improve them any. I am sure if he had kicked up a fuss she would have taken him else where. She did not commit some federal offense or stomp another person's rights by telling her son he would have to wait a bit.

[OptomisticGirl]

I never called her parwnting into question- not on purpose at least. Everyone parents differently.

 

As I said there was nothing wrong with not wanting to go into the smoke. I wouldnt have.taken my own child. The only aspect of what happened that I said could be.viewed differwntly is she let the.other woman over hear her talk to her son. Not that she talked to him but that she made no move to hide her voice.from the woman. To me that is a passive aggressive move. If you want someone to do something then talk to them person to person, not do it in a way that they over hear. I understand she lao has had bad experienxea with smokers in the past and it was not a place.of confrontation. So then why make no move.to lower your vouce? Again, this is just ky view and was alternte to what happened.

 

Again, never said she stomped on anyone's rigjts by sayong anything, just the way in which it was dilvered. If you want people to respect you then treat them with the same respect you want to be treated with. Batya gave an example herself. If her stroller was in the way she qould want aomeone to tell her. Give that same respect to the amoker, talk to THEM, not let them over hear you (on purpose) talking to your child about it.

[itsallgrand]

I have to say I do feel that it is wrong, not in a legal way, but in a fundamental way, the way that has come to be seen as the socially acceptable way to treat smokers.

 

I do not think it is right that a person can legally purchase cigarettes, and is free to smoke them, and yet is subject to as many limitations as are now the vogue in so many countries.

And then on top of that, the general consensus seems to be that it is either: ok to publicly shame a smoker if they are 'bothering' (very subjective and I am talking the fussy line where there is no clear cut legal line to follow, like this situation) or expect a smoker to bend to non-smokers and children first.

 

That is just my opinion. And I have always, even as a smoker, supported anyone who was working to stop cigarettes from being sold. I'd prefer to see them become illegal, than this.

 

I am not saying I think what you did in this situation is wrong Batya. I don't think it was fair though, honestly. Smokers do face a lot of pressure. And your concern, I think, of hitting a button with one of them by pushing it - which I believe you did do in this situation where you could have simply waited or said nothing, same as if it wasn't a smoker but someone else doing something there that would have made you wish to keep your child from there for the moment. Well yes, sometimes smokers are rude too. But I do not believe they should bend every which way to accomadate every wish of non smokers simply because THEY SMOKE.

 

Perhaps it's because I have first hand experience of trying to be one of those very considerate smokers, and people still find a way to make comments like this. You can try and try to be accommodating, and perfectly within your rights, and yet ; it's like constantly being corralled this way and that simply to have your smoke.

 

So imagine, she finally finds a spot where she thinks, hey, I can have my smoke without bothering anyone or getting any comments or looks. But no.