Doubting, doubting ....

[schueysgirl]

not only did he say that he found the polish girl attractive....but i read in there that HE HAS HER MOBILE NUMBER???

 

I do not understand:

1. WHY he is even telling you this

2. He took another girls number

 

ESEPCIALLY AFTER ALL THESE TALKS YOU HAVE HAD WITH HIM ABOUT HOW THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR MAKES YOU UNCOMFORTABLE.

 

Yes ok, so he likes the attention, likes to know he is attractive etc...who doesnt?!

The important part is that you have told him you do not like it...it upsets you.

He still doesnt realise this and carries on with it.

 

If you had similar personalities, where you both got a kick out of making each other jealous and you could both still trust each other and not be anxious then fair enough.

 

He is like this, but you are not. And you are the one who is getting anxious, working youself up and generally making yourself unhappy.

 

A guy who wants to flirt and make himself feel attrative by the come-ons of other women should not be giving out engagement rings. Marriage is not about always feeling attractive, flirting with other people etc, its about considering your partners feelings, taking them into consideration and working together to make each other FEEL GOOD. HE DOESNT COME TO YOU TO MAKE HIMSELF FEEL GOOD AND ATTRACTIVE. HE LOOKS ELSEWHERE...

 

 

...How many times does he need to make himself feel attractive without considering your feelings before you walk away completely?

[Dating Coach]

There are two (or more) interpretations of this - let me give you one that is possible.

 

That is giving the benefit of the doubt far more than once. It is possible that this is correct but man, the signs are pointing the other direction. This is a whole lot of explaining away bad behavior.

[DN]

That is giving the benefit of the doubt far more than once. It is possible that this is correct but man, the signs are pointing the other direction. This is a whole lot of explaining away bad behavior.

Well, you are entitled to your own opinion but it seems to me that no one is trying to see another side of this - his. The problem on this forum is that, with one or too exceptions, we never hear the other side.

 

You might see it as explaining away bad behaviour and that is your right. But if you are wrong you have helped destroy a relationship that could have been happy if steps had been taken to fix it - and so far nothing concrete has been done in that way.

 

I see many posts on here advocating breaking-up - and not enough about fixing things. Sometimes people need another perspective rather than 'toss it all away' so that they are more able to make an informed decision that is going to alter the course of two lives.

 

One of the biggest mistakes I have seen is assuming that there is only one side to an issue. Another is assuming that there are easy answers. And another is that too many people cut and run too early or for the wrong reasons.

[lady00]

Lots of things in his story simply do not add up and the travel guide's behavior was definitely unprofessional (running up and kissing an engaged client--even on the cheek--is NOT appropriate--and depending on the policies of the company, it may be inappropriate regardless of his relationship status). And then add to that the fact that he told his fiance that the woman knew he was engaged and then she appeared to have no clue about it...sounds rather fishy. And add to that that this is not the first incident of its kind. I think this one time he displayed so many behaviors that are troubling, but also this is not the first time something like this has happened. I think that if he wants to fix things, it's going to take a lot of work on his part to build up back trust after engaging in a pattern of behavior that has threatened his relationship. I have doubts that it is fixable but perhaps I am wrong and I am imposing my standards too much when I advocate ending the relationship. That's definitely possible--but I would not put up with repeated behavior of this sort--and would not wait around for it to be fixed because my trust would be undermined too much. I realize, however, that that is my standard. And the OP's may be different. For me, though, when a guy I am with knows that a particular behavior bothers me, if the behavior persists, I don't wait and hope for change. I leave, because I know there are guys out there that will not do this and I'll rest a little easier knowing that I am not with someone who repeatedly disregards what I view as reasonable expectations that I have articulated on more than one occasion. I think that many people overstay in relationships that are just not working (and where there is no commitment to make things work that is shown through actions, not just talk) because they are emotionally attached.

[Dating Coach]

Well, you are entitled to your own opinion but it seems to me that no one is trying to see another side of this - his.

 

That's not true. I related myself into his position and I simply wouldn't do that to my partner. If I were doing that to my partner and shrugging it off as he has been, then I would be doing that because I didn't really respect her that much. I would be testing her to see what she puts up with and when I find that out I know what I can and cannot get away with. The manner at which he is doing this appears to me that if it were me, I was checking to see how easily I could get away with messing around with other women.

 

He has a track record of pushing the envelope with other women around his fiancee'. He does this over and over despite her obvious and vocalized discomfort with it. Despite this he does it over and over and offers the completely unbelieveable excuse of ignorance to it. I just don't buy it when looking at it from the perspective of innocense. I do understand it from a position of being manipulative and testing the boundaries.

 

You might see it as explaining away bad behaviour and that is your right. But if you are wrong you have helped destroy a relationship that could have been happy if steps had been taken to fix it - and so far nothing concrete has been done in that way.

 

(I am bolding certain words but I am not talking to you in anger, I am merely making a point)

 

I helped destroy? I am not the one pulling this crud over and over in the relationship. He is. I am not responsibile for the current situation, he is. Just as if you convince her to go back to the guy and she later discovers he has been sleeping around and then sleeping with her only to pass on an STD. We can't blame you in such a case, we would have to blame him for doing it and her for ignoring the signs.

 

I see many posts on here advocating breaking-up - and not enough about fixing things.

 

The guy isn't fixing things. She has vocalized her discomfort and pain at his actions and he isn't changing. If he truly showed a desire to acknowledge his actions in hurting her and remedy the situation by respecting her from this point on, then we wouldn't be taking our stance. But he hasn't. He offers a poor excuse, says she "claims" he did these things, and even tries to shoulder the problems of the relationship on her by saying, "Well I love you, if you hand back the ring then it is you calling it off." That isn't accepting responsibility and working towards fixing things. That is a complete and utter lack of caring about the way he has hurt her.

[lady00]

The guy isn't fixing things. She has vocalized her discomfort and pain at his actions and he isn't changing. If he truly showed a desire to acknowledge his actions in hurting her and remedy the situation by respecting her from this point on, then we wouldn't be taking our stance. But he hasn't. He offers a poor excuse, says she "claims" he did these things, and even tries to shoulder the problems of the relationship on her by saying, "Well I love you, if you hand back the ring then it is you calling it off." That isn't accepting responsibility and working towards fixing things. That is a complete and utter lack of caring about the way he has hurt her.

 

I have to agree with this. It's one thing if both people are working towards resolving the issue. But here, he has not made any effort in that regard, unless I am missing something.

 

I'm all for working things out, when both parties are willing and showing it through actions. But I have to say, breaking up is not something that is to be avoided at all costs. Sometimes a breakup is the best move. I don't think it's a bad thing to advocate breaking up when things just aren't working. People should not be afraid to end things if they have tried again and again to resolve the issue but it keeps popping up.

[JadedStar]

Not true. I always try to give suggestions on fixing it when it seems more fixable. This is a myriad of problems going on with this guy, if it were one or two isolated incidents i would not give the advice to move on. But that is not the case.

 

I am not going to re-quote all that was stated that is a serious eye opener and major redflags - they are already quoted. I just want to reinforce again that it is these grave redflags that led me to give my advice that he isn't ready for a commitment. Not at all. Maybe later in life, but it is obvious right now he is not.

 

The responses he has given her are very much the type when someone refuses to take any respnosiblity for their actions. he puts the onus all on her, to include the engagement break off. he won't even take HALF of the responsiiblity that maybe his actions were a part of the cause. He basically shrugged his shoulders and said okay....

 

Sad to say not all relationsihps are fixable just because love is present. This is beginning to look more and more like the case here the more we hear.

[JadedStar]

And it is human nature to like affirmation and to have people make us feel attractive or worthy, but smoeone who is ready to get married shouldn't be craving it to this degree and not only craving it but encouraging it and exchanging phone numbers and going on weekend trips with a coworker who is one of the women who he has such enamored like the polish girl and the tour guide.

 

And because of this human proclivity to want to feel wanted and attractive is also the very reason this relationship is causing ally so much angst. By his constant NEED for affirmation her own need for affirmation gets crushed out like a cigarette butt.

 

Let's say he has some childhood traumas causing this - it is fine and well to feel pity for someone but pity doesn't make for a good relationship. Ally also needs some affirmation and doesn't seem to be getting it.

[DN]

I don't see many people on this thread attempting to give another perspective other than a litany of 'red flags' (I am getting so tired of that expression), 'dump him' and so on. And in my time on here I have noticed a trend for people to advise giving up on relationships without a real attempt to find out if there is an alternative or another point of view. No wonder the divorce rate is so high - if a relationship isn't perfect in every way, or someone has human weaknesses, or messes up, there is a chorus of people saying 'dump him or her'.

 

So from my perspective - it is true. It may not be true of individuals all the time but the trend is certainly there.

 

Relationships have survived many stresses, strains and misunderstandings. And what is unforgivable by one person is of no consequence to another. Between those two extremes there is often a middle way of negotiation and compromise in a sincere attempt to work things out. Because in the final analysis people realise that their love for each other is too important to break up over something that can be fixed.

 

There are few absolutes in relationships.

[JadedStar]

And in my time on here I have noticed a trend for people to advise giving up on relationships without a real attempt to find out if there is an alternative or another point of view.

 

That is a tad non insightful and incorrect. I know personally i really READ a thread and i think to great length before i willy nilly type out a reply. Is it always right? perhaps not and i am sure not all the time, but i definitely do not think they are not thought provoking to the raeder to give them some food for thought. I make EVERY attempt to ensure that what i write is what i have given thought to and feel is the appropriate response. I think it would be more helpful if everyone concentrates on what they feel to be the case here vs challenging the view of opposition.

 

One might say the same thing about your posts on this thread, that you are refusing to see ally's side in this and are intent on saying this guy's problems are totally fixable despite the very real signs otherwise. But yet you are definitely free to give your take on it and i am sure ally will find some value in your posts. But to suggest that those of us who don't agree should just stop giving our insight isn't very helpful to her at all.

 

When i respond it is with the OP at heart. If the other person were here posting i would be posting with them in mind. I can only help the person asking for help. He is not here, thus i cannot quiz him to find out more on WHY he does what he does. All i know at this point that what he is doing that we know if is a very real issue. It's not even redflags at this point - it is huge roadblocks and stop signs.

[DN]

JS - i am not going to get into a debate with you - especially when you are just intent on contradiction. It serves no purpose and simply derails the thread.

 

All I will say is that I stand by my advice that this relationship may well be fixable with good-will and understanding on both sides and unless and until that effort is made I think it a mistake to end it.

[Dating Coach]

I don't see many people on this thread attempting to give another perspective other than a litany of 'red flags' (I am getting so tired of that expression), 'dump him' and so on.

 

I did. My very first post on this thread I quoted something the guy did that was a complaint from the OP and I said that this wasn't a big deal at all. It was when I went further into her post that all of these things started adding up, and from what I have read about his actions I place myself in his shoes and I cannot find a real reason to excuse his actions. If I were him and I were doing that the reason for my actions would be to test the boundaries to see what I can or cannot get away with. So looking at his position I do not see good.

 

And in my time on here I have noticed a trend for people to advise giving up on relationships without a real attempt to find out if there is an alternative or another point of view. No wonder the divorce rate is so high - if a relationship isn't perfect in every way, or someone has human weaknesses, or messes up, there is a chorus of people saying 'dump him or her'.

 

You could also say that the divorce rate is so high because people walk into marriages despite the (I know you hate it) "Red Flags" that they failed to give proper attention to.

 

No relationship is perfect, and no one here is saying that if a relationship isn't perfect that it must be ended. In this particular situation we have seen this guy commit wrongdoings over and over again despite the pain it has caused the OP. How do you excuse or explain away that?

 

To top it off, when she makes a stand for herself and shows she means business by handing back the ring, he doesn't own up to his mistakes and promise to stop flirting with other women, taking numbers, going on trips with crushes, getting in taxi cabs and going for rides with flirtatuous tour guides, etc. He instead says that he loves her and that giving back the ring means that she is calling it off. That's not a plea to make ammends. That is not an acknowledgement of guilt and a promise to improve. It's just him laying the blame of the failed relationship on her shoulders. "It was her decision to end it, not mine."

 

I don't buy his actions and I do not see why you are. We have to agree to disagree yet but I wish I could at least see where you are coming from. None of your points seem convincing to me at all, so I am not sure if I am failing to grasp your points or what.

 

Relationships have survived many stresses, strains and misunderstandings. And what is unforgivable by one person is of no consequence to another. Between those two extremes there is often a middle way of negotiation and compromise in a sincere attempt to work things out.

 

That is true, but in those situations both parties are willing to work it out. This guy isn't doing his part. She has forgiven his actions multiple times and he continues to do it. Even now he won't take full responsibility for the lack of trust in the relationship and he is still talking about being or not being attracted to some other girls. Perhaps if he were handling his past actions with sincere regret and a promise to respect her in the future then I would advise her to give him a last chance. I don't see that from him.

[DN]

I don't buy his actions and I do not see why you are. We have to agree to disagree yet but I wish I could at least see where you are coming from. None of your points seem convincing to me at all, so I am not sure if I am failing to grasp your points or what.

 

Because it isn't you that has to buy them. The Op does and she is quite obviously conflicted. If she were sure she wanted to dump him that would be fair enough. But clearly she hasn't done that - and she needs to make sure before she does. That means talking to him properly and trying to see things from his point of view - all we have is her interpretation of his motives and actions.

 

Anyway - I don't need to convince anyone on here other than the OP and she will do as she thinks fit. I just hope she doesn't do anything she will regret later.

[redhearts]

What a pig seriously he is showing interest in other women IN FRONT OF YOU! That is inexcusable!

[lady00]

Fundamentally, I think that things can work if both people are willing to do the work and both people are aware of each other's dealbreakers and don't violate them. That said, I'm not an advocate of staying in a relationship till it's last breath. I'm not sure if this relationship has come to that, but nothing that has been posted leads me to believe otherwise. At the end of the day, however, the OP knows the situation better than any of us. I just don't like seeing people stay in relationships that just aren't working. Based on what the OP has posted, this isn't working for her. Could it be turned around? Sure. But that has to start with at least a baseline agreement about what is and what is not OK. I think OP has expressed her side of things to her bf. And yet he continues with the same behaviors. That is what strikes me the most. If things are going to change, they both need to express what they need and then respond with action. So far I see none of that from the bf. But to be fair, DN is right--we only have one side of the story. But then again, if one person is unhappy and not satisfied with what the other person is doing, then maybe that suggests and underlying incompatibility in what they both want out of the relationship. In some situations, that can be rectified. I can't really say if this is one of those, but so far nothing has been posted that suggests it is. And I can only go off of what is posted here.

[lady00]

The Op does and she is quite obviously conflicted. If she were sure she wanted to dump him that would be fair enough. But clearly she hasn't done that - and she needs to make sure before she does. That means talking to him properly and trying to see things from his point of view - all we have is her interpretation of his motives and actions.

 

I agree, if she thinks one more talk will be effective, then by all means, she should. She has had several talks with him about this subject, but maybe if she lets him know that she is really in conflict now and that she would like for them both to have a resolution of this recurring issue once and for all, then perhaps this time will be different. It may be hasty to suggest breaking up like I have suggested, but I think that if she does talk to him one more time and still nothing changes, then it may be really time to throw in the towel. I guess at the end of the day, she needs to set her own boundaries and her own timeline about how much discussion is warranted and what she wants to get out of the discussion in order to proceed with the relationship. If this matches up with his goals, then they should be back in business. I continue to have my doubts, based on his behavior as posted about here, but that's not to say it's not worth another shot.

[annie24]

DN - I buy the "ugly ducking" theory. I think it's totally possible he was in high school and was kind of geeky (or thought he was), and maybe still feels like the ugly duckling, even if he is a swan, with another swan on his arm. I get that. I understand enjoying attention from other women. I think, though, it's different enjoying female attention when you are with your fiance vs. just being out alone or with your guy friends.

 

My concern is what can ally handle and what she cannot? I think we all have different amounts of jealousy. some people are very jealous, others are not. I was once in line for the bathroom on a day-trip boat, and said something to the guy in front of me, something like, 'hey - nice weather today' (not flirting ot anything), and his gf ran from the other side of the boat, grabbed his arm, and glared at me. i think that's out of control! and some people are so not jealous that they are actually able to have an open relationship. I think most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

 

I guess Ally has to decide if she can deal with a guy who is naturally flirty at times. I don't see the issue as really 'changing him.' i'm not sure if that is possible. it would be nice if he toned down the flirting with other women when he is in front of ally. Or maybe ally can learn to be more secure in her relationship? Maybe that is the key? The less secure I am in a relationship, the less jealous I am. If i am confident in a guy's love and fidelity towards me, then i don't worry if he has to be in close quarters with a very attractive woman. On the other hand, if I don't feel he is trustworthy, then something kind of minor can set me off.

[allypally]

I had just typed up my response to you and it got lost so will have to repeat it all over again - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[allypally]

Thank you all for your responses - it is much appreciated. I had no idea this situation would create such a debate.

 

Since we returned from holiday, I have effectively held my ex-fiance on trial. We have discussed for the last 5 weeks what happened and there seems to be nothing further I can glean if I continue these discussions (N.B we haven't argued).

 

Last Sunday I handed the ring back to him because I felt that my questions regarding his misdemeanors during our holiday did not have the kind of answers that left me with a peace of mind. I have chosen to downgrade my level of commitment to him to that of a dating nature with no promise of marriage on the horizon.

 

I told him that after 5 weeks I still could not understand or excuse what he did and that he had crossed the line beyond which I could consider as being acceptable. It was unacceptable and thats all there is about it.

 

His response was, that if I couldn't forgive him then there was no point in continuing. I retorted that I was capable of forgiveness but it could take a while. That what happened had 'wounded' me to the point where I had had to question his integrity and it had destroyed the trust that had been slowly built in the relationship.

 

Now that we are dating again, I get to step back from things, there is no pressure or expectation of marriage and the NEXT thing he does which is unacceptable to me - I am gone. Its over.

 

Thats where i am at.

 

Whats keeping me with him even after all of this?

 

The conflict that exists is down to his 'split personality'. I have seen two people in him:

 

1) The kind, loving, puppy-eyed guy who is helpful round the flat, thoughtful etc etc.

2) The womanising guy who also subscribes to laddish behaviour and whose mates are also lads.

 

I love no. 1) personality.

 

I think he is trying to be no. 1) but he is unable to keep up pretences since no. 2) keeps creeping in and particularly when there are 'attractive' women around.

 

Not only is our holiday an example of his 'revert to type 2)' behaviour, but at his friend's birthday lunch party a few months ago he actually put himself between me and this other girl and pretty much ignored me throughout the course of the meal. He then proceeded to stare after her as she walked back to her car.

 

He has since then behaved like a complete jerk and tried to pass it off as nothing. I told him that most people would have dumped him for that.

[ImThatGirl]

I only have a moment but.... Wow!

 

Effectively held him to trial? Misdemeanors?

 

This should be black and white in my opinion. Either you want to have a future with him or not. You don't hold him to trial and make him beg for your forgiveness endlessly. Giving him the ring back to show him how serious you are or whatever.... Just let him go already. Waiting for his next mess up . . . . . heck he's on trial here! I'm sure he knows that and walking on eggshells to keep you happy isn't going to be an easy task and most likely moreso an impossible task!

 

I think this is frightening and very sad honestly. I don't get it at all. I think the two of you together have ruined any chances of a happy future together and should just walk away from each other.

 

This will be my last post on your threads Ally. If you'd ever like to talk, feel free to pm me.

[JadedStar]

Yea i agree with this totally, all of it.

 

I think this is a very poor way of handling this, but as i have stated many times on this thread the decision is yours. You have made it. I think you both may have ruined chances of a decent future, so i also echo ImThatGirl's sentiments with that.

 

You are not a judge and he is not a defendant. Or at least it shouldn't be that way. If that is how you see this and how you feel it best to put it back together then i fear your road is going to be much longer and bumpier than you ever imagined. He is who he is. Sure he can make changes, but if you think a person will never backslide you are kidding yourself. You are only delaying the inevitable by dating him right now.

 

You will have succeeded in getting him to walk on eggshells, again agreeing with ITG, and how is that giong to be conducive to creating a more loving relationship? In this regard I can agree with DN in that if you CHOOSE to make a go of it you can't do it with putting him on trial and not working WITH him.

 

I wish you best of luck but I have never known any relationship that sustained or ended happily when one person is the judge and the other the defendant. It is a recipe for disaster. He will keep on trying to be good boy but when he slips he will get stung by you and probably take an F it all attitude and just end up worse.

[allypally]

ITG, I think you misunderstood, for the last 5 weeks I have been TRYING to understand what happened through talking and he has encouraged this process. I guess for a guy it would seem like being held to trial. I did suggest couples counselling and he was receptive to that.

 

I haven't been wanting him to beg me for forgiveness at all. I just wanted to get to the bottom of why it happened and TBH his answers haven't given me peace of mind.

 

I hasten to add that we have both acknowledged that we have contributed to screwing things up, and he said he was amazed that we were still talking to eachother.

 

He has told me on a number of occasions that in previous relationships they never had a 'talking' kind of relationship and so this is new to him.

 

I apologised for the fact that my wanting to talk so many times about what happened seemed like a 'Spanish Inquisition' and he accepted.

 

Might I say, that it feels like I am on trial with some ENA'ers.

[JadedStar]

You are not on trial Ally. We were only reacting to your post about putting your b/f on trial (your own words) and trying to give the suggestion that this can be very detrimental and likely won't have the desired outcome.

[allypally]

Well despite what you think, I am trying to mend bridges aswell and put a card through his letter box yesterday evening which has a poem I wrote for him when things had hit an all time low (I am not seeking a 'well done' or 'congratulations' for this either).

 

We are going running on Thursday like we usually do and are off to the theatre during the day on Saturday then on to his work do in the evening.

 

I told him last night when he rang me to thank me for the card that I really wanted things to work, and that my giving the ring back was not a rejection, just that I wanted to take things slowly without the pressure of marriage and he totally understood. He also had understood this from our conversation on Sunday.

 

I also told him that we had only been together for a year, and we hadn't been through that much together, that there is no rush. That there maybe things he doesn't like about me further down the line, that there cannot be any harm in slowing things down and getting to know eachother better. I wanted him to know that I wasn't damning his proposal at all, just that people rush into marriage without really knowing the other person and it isn't wise. He agreed with this.

 

What can I say? there is a lot of damage to be repaired by both of us.

[Dating Coach]

Anyway - I don't need to convince anyone on here other than the OP and she will do as she thinks fit. I just hope she doesn't do anything she will regret later.

 

You're right, of course not. I was merely saying that since we are in opposite sides of the debate in trying to get this girls ear, I wish I could see your side more. I don't stubbornly cling to a side regardless of the topic, I want to keep an open mind and fully understand the debate so I can give the best advice possible. Since we disagree, I was hoping you could convince me of the strength of your points.