Doubting, doubting ....

[JadedStar]

^^ for it to have never happened in the first place. Life is hard and it can suck, but you need to decide whether you are willing to forgive him and go forward with him, or not.

 

Good luck to you Ally.

 

Right. And it is a pattern, NOT an isolated incident.

 

Ally, his comment about "not that much" when you mentioned his liking female attention after all the problems you are going thru is pretty telling.

 

I just think his personality is not going to mesh well with yours and you will always deal with these other woman issues.

[allypally]

Yes, I would always have to deal with his flirtations, no matter how innocent they are to him.

 

He contradicts himself: he claims to be shy, but he isn't shy with women at all. He has the ability to talk to women with ease. I don't understand why he has to make such a song and dance about it.

 

What I mean is: he always refers to nights out on the pull with mates, the good looking Polish woman, the tour guide who he got on well with and didn't deter her from her behaviour even though he claimed not to have been 'looking for anything'.

 

The sad thing is I had paid for a hot air balloon ride for us both (we would have had to have gone some time in the new year).

 

Was I just paranoid?

[annie24]

The sad thing is I had paid for a hot air balloon ride for us both (we would have had to have gone some time in the new year).

 

again, like the ring, this isn't a big deal, not the issue to focus on. perhaps you can go with a friend instead?

 

so does this mean you guys are broken up or have just gone back to dating....?

[allypally]

At the moment we are back to dating.

 

Am I being paranoid here?

[annie24]

you know, i think you should just trust your gut. none of us know him, and none of us know if he is the cheating type or not. I think JS has a point - perhaps your personalities just don't "mesh" well. I think if you are going to be on pins and needles the rest of your marriage, there's no point, that sounds awful.

[allypally]

The point he made yesterday - "I wouldn't have proposed to you if I hadn't thought you were the one for me".

 

The stuff he said about the good looking Polish girl, he mentioned that he just didn't click with her, something was missing with her, but he said he clicks with me.

 

My gut is telling me that I don't want to get hurt - that he was just too friendly with her [THE TOUR GUIDE NOT THE POLISH GIRL], responding to her being so friendly to him - but hey! it was her job!!! She also went too far.

 

I also feel like the loser here - not brave enough to stay engaged. Unable to forgive and just move on.

 

Can anyone comment on this?

[JadedStar]

Ally he might believe you are the right one for him, but if there is a personality conflict here (and i tihnk there is) the person who is the less overt is almost always the one who is torn in knots all the time. So what happens is he doesn't see these things he does as an issue and he doesn't know entirely how they affect you even tho you share with him it is bothersome.

 

It will always be a source of angst for you. Sure, for him, you are great, the right girl, he feels confident. If the tables were turned and he dated a girl who always had her eye on "another prize" and was very flirtatious THEN he would know how you feel. But it isn't like that because that is not your personality.

 

So you are the one who walks around with all of this gut wrenching angst.

 

This is not aobut who he thinks is the right girl for him right now. This is about if you think he is the right man for YOU.

 

I dated a guy like that one time, and altho he looked great on paper he was like this too. It just always bothered me. Alwyas left me feeling a bit deflated. I realized we just were not a match on personality. He needed a women who was the same way and who would not get offended over this sort of thing. I knew I was not that woman.

[allypally]

Thanks JS.

 

It is coming to terms with it all.

 

I have been crying on and off all day at work - a nightmare.

 

He thinks he is a shy person and unlucky with women, but he doesn't act that way and yet women respond to him.

 

Maybe this is why his relationships have ended.

 

He is definitely two different people - a lad on the one hand and someone a bit lost on the other and in need of a strong woman. I am strong in most ways, just not strong enough to handle someone who behaves like this.

 

I have hit a block in the relationship which I cannot overcome. Over a month since the holiday and still no progress, just one step forward and 10 steps back. Like wading through treacle.

 

I turned the tables yesterday for him and asked him how he would feel if what happened on the holiday happened to him. His reaction was that he wouldn't have liked it at all.

 

He keeps apologising.

[ImThatGirl]

Ally~ Not to discount your feelings on this but, in most of your threads, I haven't seen you mention the intense anxiety that you get within relationships.

 

You mentioned it in one that I posted in and we posted back and forth about it.

 

I strongly believe that intense anxiety and inability to let a good thing be a good thing may play a huge part in this. I'm not saying that he doesn't need to make some changes. But - I am saying that many of your decisions seem like hasty decisions to me.

 

I am sorry for the pain you are feeling....!

 

A relationship and a marriage - you don't just throw your weight around all the time.

 

Ex:

1) He said he couldn't go on holiday - you immediately booked your own and was angry as ever at him.

2) Give him the ring back but keep dating him. To me, that's somewhat manipulative. As I've said before, I think he is who he is. I just don't get giving the ring back but still dating someone. Can anyone explain this to me?

[allypally]

Manipulation was the last thing on my mind here.

 

I gave the ring back because I didn't feel I could be 'engaged' when there were these unresolved issues to clear up. I felt less pressure by just dating and spending more time getting to know eachother and overcoming fears etc without marriage on the horizon.

 

There are people who date a long time before marriage. The man I am with doesn't want to hang around for long though and wants to marry asap i.e. he doesn't want to date for 5 yrs before getting married.

 

I feel I need longer before taking that step. I just want to take my time getting to know him through dating without the 'engaged' label.

 

Re: the holiday. He never knew anything about my booking my own holiday because I didn't tell him. I cancelled it and booked our other holiday instead.

 

As far as other relationships go, before I met my bf, I went through 6yrs going through one bad relationship after another. In most cases I was the rebound as they hadn't gotten over their exes, or they just wanted a 'trophy' gf but they didn't actually love me.

 

To me, marriage is to big a thing to go into when there are these problems to resolve.

[ImThatGirl]

My point is that you are a reactor. If that's a word. You react more quickly than what I think is healthy for a relationship.

 

I suppose I'll never understand the ring part. I just don't get it. I suppose I just expect that engagement should be as strong as marriage. You don't just give rings back, etc. etc.

 

In any case, the anxiety issue.... I know from your past posts that you are worried that you are letting your anxiety control your emotions and decisions.

 

I think that if that is still that case, you should clarify and make it known. By not doing so and only pointing out negatives about him and your perspective of the situations, you are going to get a biased opinion basically leaning towards "oh yah he's terrible, run now..."

[allypally]

Yes, I am a 'reactor' - I reacted to something that hurt a lot.

 

I gave the ring back because after a month I still hadn't gotten over what had happened and didn't feel I could go into marriage when I was having these doubts and fears.

[JadedStar]

Yes, I am a 'reactor' - I reacted to something that hurt a lot.

 

I gave the ring back because after a month I still hadn't gotten over what had happened and didn't feel I could go into marriage when I was having these doubts and fears.

 

My take on your anxiety is this...

 

I think you do have a tendency to be over anxious, however, i think that he is a catalyst for it. I think in a different relationship with someone who has a different personality you wouldn't stay so keyed up and anxious all the time. I think you would be more anxious then the average person, but not to this degree you have been ...

 

Sometimes this happens to people if they are with someone who does not bring out their best attributes.

 

I say this because the guy i mentioned in last post that i dated like this did that to me. He did not bring out the qualities in myself that were my better qualities. Instead his personality invoked my anxiousness and angst. it was hard for me to concentrate on the things aobut myself that were positive because i stayed so keyed up all the time worrying over the way he was with people... I am not saying that you can't ever make something like tihs work but i am saying it is harder to make it work then having a person in your life whose personaltiy is a better match.

 

Yes, you are probably over anxious and angst'd out Ally, but my strong gut feeling feels that this guy brings that aspect out in you more than a guy would who does not have these natural flirtatious tendencies.

 

And i am pretty sure you gave back the ring but continue to date because to cut him off completely is an unknown territory and you are fearing the unknown right now.

[ImThatGirl]

 

I also feel like the loser here - not brave enough to stay engaged. Unable to forgive and just move on.

Can anyone comment on this?

 

This is one of your comments that concerns me Ally.

 

If you continuously react and if it is even possibly related to your intense anxiety, I am concerned that you are going to ruin your future chances at a happy relationship and marriage.

 

When do you go abroad?

[allypally]

The heartbreak of this is, apart from his flirtatious tendancies we are a perfect match.

 

He thinks I am near 'perfect', even though he is finding out now that I am far from it.

 

Take his flirtatiousness away and we are very well suited.

 

It is bringing to the surface my insecurities which is a side of me I didn't want him to have to see.

 

Yesterday he admitted that it was probably wise that we didn't get married. He has taken the ring with him.

 

I know that with relationships it always takes two. I'm not sure whether you'd agree with this or not, but I 'react' differently to most people. Rather than reacting immediately to something I don't like, I think about it and wait until I see more of the same happening before getting justifiably angry.

 

This happened on the holiday.

 

ITG - I react when someone's behaviour makes me feel extremely uncomfortable and upsets me - also my gut instinct kicking in. This happened in the past and it turned out that each time my gut was right.

 

For example: I was 'intensely' anxious throughout one LDR which lasted 6 months and the guy ended up marrying a co-worker who wanted to meet me when I went over to the country to visit the guy! He and the co-worker had apparently liked eachother for a long time but had never done anything about it because of professional reasons.

 

He used me like a shrink to help him get over his last failed relationship and went on and on about his ex-gf. The next thing I know he has married this girl he introduced me to!

 

I think my anxiety is really my gut instinct coming to the surface.

[ImThatGirl]

^ I truly understand how you're feeling. I can certainly relate and have had similar past experiences where I was anxious as all get out and with due reason.

 

However, I believe that if I could have handled things differently and been less reactive, maybe just maybe things could have worked out well.

 

For myself, instead of looking at the past and thinking "oh yeah, good thing I dodged that and went with my gut," I kind of look back and think about how I could've handled things differently or better. Not to say that every guy that I dated in the past was wonderful and I was the one that ruined the dating / relationships but.... I was much less tolerant, understanding, accepting in my past. It was ALL ABOUT ME! Which to an extent, a relationship should be.... But I should've been more understanding, less reactive, more patient in some cases. Instead, I let anxiety get the best of me.

[JadedStar]

I agree with what you are saying imthatgirl but not when it comes to a guy who seems to be a woman magnet and who encourages these women to flirt with him.

 

it sounds like what is being said is she needs to relax and be more tolerant of his behavior. He makes it clear he likes this and nothing suggests he will stop, he even went so far as to say he agrees with canceling the engagement. DN asked what else could he do to fight this - well I dare say that saying "yea i agree with canceling the engagement" is ZERO fight and not doing anything to save this. It surely isn't showing her that her feelings about these other women have been wrong.

 

I think what you are telling Ally is very applicable but not as it pertains to this guy> I think that it will be hard for her to curb her insecurities with a man who is continually pushing these buttons.

 

It's like this - i am a pretty together and secure preson. However, if i were with a man like this even my self esteem would drop a few notches. So someone fighting insecurity surely is going to have a long uphill battle trying to heal herself with someone who keeps fueling the fire.

 

It's like trying to heal a wound when you sprinkle salt on it everyday.

[ImThatGirl]

^^ JS - I completely understand and respect your direction on this. I can relate for sure.

 

I feel like the way he acted on Holiday probably wasn't even a surprise though. So maybe just something about accepting serious relationships or even engagement from someone with holding out hopes that the person is going to change.... Gets me thinking for some reason.

 

If someone took a ring back from me, I'd never talk to that person again..... Oh wait - that happened once....

 

Ally what are your plans at this point?

[Dating Coach]

He said, why would I do the things you claim I've done when I asked you to marry me?

 

Why would he do the things you "claim" he'd done?! What is he talking about? There is no "claim", he did them.

 

I still see an utter lack of taking responsibility and understanding that it was his fault. Yes, I read that he "apologized" but if he truly recognized that he is the one that caused this, that the responsibility for the current situation is on his shoulders, then he wouldn't be saying such thigns as the quote above. He still doesn't seem to think what he did was disrespectful in the extreme, nor that this wasn't a solo incident, but a reoccurring one.

 

He also seems to be placing the blame on you some, telling you that when a woman hands back the ring it means it's over. He's basically trying to put all of this on you and your decision.

 

I don't get that he really takes responsibility. Anyone can say "I'm sorry". When they've already made the same mistake multiple times it's hard enough to believe their "apology" but when he mixes his apology up with signs that he doesn't take full responsibility, places the burden of the decision on you, etc... I just don't get a good sense here.

[Dating Coach]

Only yesterday before his friends arrived, he started telling me about this very attractive Polish girl who was a friend of a female friend of his who I have met (they have fallen out). He said he didn't click with her (but he has her mobile no), his mate fancied her but she didn't fancy him, and she dated another mate of theirs but it didn't last. He continued to talk about this. Then he mentioned a female civil engineer at work that he has been talking to. Every time he mentions other women I get suspicious.

 

WHY would he be mentioning this to you? This is very disrespectful. I couldn't imagine going on and on about attractive women I am around and talking to to my fiancee'. This guy does not understand what respect and committment is. Seriously, I would run if I were you. Could you image yourself telling one of your girlfriends to stay with a guy who has done and continues to do all of the things this guy is doing?

 

I sincerely believe you are being played. This guy seems to only care about himself.

[Dating Coach]

The point he made yesterday - "I wouldn't have proposed to you if I hadn't thought you were the one for me".

 

So what? Maybe he is being honest. Maybe he does feel that you are the one for him to marry. However I don't buy that his idea of commitment means ONLY you. He sure likes his kicks with other women so while he may believe you are the one to marry I absolutely do not believe that he will be faithful to you.

 

The stuff he said about the good looking Polish girl, he mentioned that he just didn't click with her, something was missing with her, but he said he clicks with me.

 

Why is he talking like this to you? So weird. I couldn't imagine talking to my fiancee' like this.

[JadedStar]

So what? Maybe he is being honest. Maybe he does feel that you are the one for him to marry. However I don't buy that his idea of commitment means ONLY you. He sure likes his kicks with other women so while he may believe you are the one to marry I absolutely do not believe that he will be faithful to you.

 

 

 

Why is he talking like this to you? So weird. I couldn't imagine talking to my fiancee' like this.

 

 

I absolutely agree with this from DC.

 

ally, all of DC's posts i absolutely concur with and i think he's spot on. He has articulated exactly what my gut feelings have been regarding this guy's behavior.

 

The fact that he said something didn't click with the polish girl, and went on to describe she was pretty, is so whack it's not even funny. WHY do you say this to your fiancee? It suggests that he is talking to these women and examining if something does click. WHY? It suggests if he finds one that does have that click you'd be dropped like yesterday's news anyway.

 

He sounds immature, too flirty and not at all ready for a commitment or an engagement. And yes, he has turned everything around on you to make you feel at fault here.

 

I agree with DC when he says "run" from this one. The way he dissected some of the things said by this guy seems spot on.

[Dating Coach]

Excellent post.

[Girl79]

I agree with Dating Coach and Jaded Star. I have followed many of your threads ally and I really think he lacks consideration for your feelings and for the relationship. He apologizes but says NOTHING about trying to change his behaviour. He gives excuses and continues to do things that hurt you, then just expects you to deal with it because he likes attention from other women. Come on, this is ridiculous! I know maybe you want to keep dating him in hopes that he will change, and maybe these next few weeks of holiday parties will be the ultimate test. But I still agree that it was over during the holiday when he was lapping up the attention from the tour guide.

[DN]

He thinks he is a shy person and unlucky with women, but he doesn't act that way and yet women respond to him.

 

There are two (or more) interpretations of this - let me give you one that is possible.

 

I don't know why he feels he is unlucky with women. It could be something that happened long ago - perhaps as a child or as a teenager. Perhaps he was one of those kids who for what ever reason aren't very popular, don't have many close friends and was never very attractive to girls. Perhaps he was even made fun of.

 

Now all that is supposition and maybe that never happened. But suppose it did to some degree. Or, more importantly, he thought it did because of his shyness.

 

And then when he got older, went through puberty and became a man, he lost that geeky look he had as a child or teenager - a sort of 'ugly duckling' syndrome. But in that tale the ugly duckling realised at last she was a swan and was beautiful. But that rarely happens with humans - the self-image that we have of ourselves as a teenager is very hard to overcome.

 

So when he finds women flirting with him - it is an affirmation that he is attractive. Not just attractive to you - but attractive to others and that what happened when he was younger was either misconceived or he is at long last past it.

 

But he really isn't past it - people don't really ever get past it. So he will always need that affirmation to some extent.

 

Does that mean he doesn't love you? No, it doesn't.

 

Does that mean he will cheat on you? Possibly but I doubt it. Because this isn't about sex or love or desire for these other women. It's about how he views himself through the prism of other people's eyes.

 

Does this mean you are not the person that he wants to be with? Clearly it doesn't for he is still with you. Had he wanted to be with the tour guide - it seems she would have been more than willing. But he didn't choose her - he chose you. And he did so because he loves you and that is a different thing from being seen as attractive by women.

 

It is not that he wants to be seen as attractive by a woman other than you, such as the tour guide, but by women in general. But that is not the same as being in love with them or wanting to be with them romantically or sexually.

 

This is why I think this relationship is maybe salvageable - because I suspect this is not about how he views you but how he views himself.