Men and their obsession with women's appearance...

[Lily04]

I've never had a problem approaching men and I've never had a problem allowing men to be men and do more of the asking out on dates in the beginning. I have asked men out - no problems doing that either - it's just not an effective way to find a relationship with a reasonably "together" and reasonably confident adult man. In all I've had great experiences with men both in relationships and friendships.

 

This is a totally different issue, but interesting nonetheless because although I am a "feminist" and have no problem asking out men either (I've done it enough times in the past) I still appreciate the men doing the asking out. And I think it shows confidence, etc. I think for guys my age or a bit older, I'm going to just expect this from now on because I find the opposite to often only decrease my own confidence and I don't like it. If *I* am doing most of the work in the initiating, it simpyl won't work. It makes me feel unappreciated.

 

The exception is if there is a significant age gap and then I can understand if he'd be a bit hesitant about asking me out or if there's a professional relationship involved in which he may be more hesitant in showing attraction, and then more of the onus may be on me.

[Batya33]

yes, which is why I always say if he is interested and available - so that if there is a huge age gap or a professional relationship he might not feel he is available to date the lady. And I believe what I wrote is on point as far as whether men's focus on women's appearance motivates them to approach first (I don't necesarily believe so but it was brought up).

 

One reason I do not label myself a feminist (other than I share the feminisit view in equal pay for equal work) is because I feel comfortable in a tradtional romantic relationship and with men who feel comfortable with that arrangement as well.

[Gratsy]

I call myself a feminist even though I understand that there are different roles at times for men and women. The idea of who a feminist can be is very different for many minds and even the strict definetion is still questionable. I call myself a feminist because I want people to have an overall understanding of the ideas I operate under ... I'm aware of societal ideas of a feminist even if they aren't strict to the definitive idea of a feminist.

 

I have no set ideas for what is right when it comes to who should do the asking. I do know that I have utterly failed in my experiences with being the pursuer (even if its my natural inclination) and so now only date men who are willing to play that role.

[Batya33]

That's interesting - I refuse to label myself as a feminist because I don't like to be labeled or boxed in.

[Gratsy]

I don't mind some labels. I don't mind being called "woman" for instance. (just playing with you)

[corvidae]

It's tough to argue with someone with a stubborn, negative mindset who believes opinions are facts.

 

Is this a reference to my opinions because the description you give is how I feel about a lot of women on these forums, demonstrating that it's all rather subjective. I believe some of the things I say are subject from the male view point, but does that make them any less factual? As women have to interact with men, does it not benefit both of us to take our subjective view points into account?

 

 

I've never had a problem approaching men and I've never had a problem allowing men to be men

 

Speaking of subjectivity versus absolute truth who, and when was it, decided what should constitute 'being a man'. Please remember there are a LOT of very unpleasant males out there who have no problem 'being a man' in asking out women (because they don't have the intelligence to feel awkward), but to all other intents and purpose they are scum.

[Raiden]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread... so, sorry if this has already been mentioned

 

No disrespect, but are you sure you ladies don't say the same sort of things about men? If a girlfriend of yours said that she was hanging out with a male friend, would you not be in the least bit curious as to how attractive he is?

 

Personally I feel both genders are on an even keel when it comes to living up to the opposite gender's expectations.

[tmp0620]

...there are a LOT of very unpleasant males out there who have no problem 'being a man' in asking out women (because they don't have the intelligence to feel awkward), but to all other intents and purpose they are scum.

 

I like that bit there. "They don't have the intelligence to feel awkward".

[Batya33]

I've asked men out. I was nervous and it was a little awkward. Big deal. I would have done it much more if it was an effective way to find a long term relationship.

[tylercdurden2004]

Please remember there are a LOT of very unpleasant males out there who have no problem 'being a man' in asking out women (because they don't have the intelligence to feel awkward), but to all other intents and purpose they are scum.

 

I am confused. What does the above mean in particular the bolded part? Can you clarify?

[CaptainPlanet]

Intelligence is becoming a dirty word in my book.

[tmp0620]

I am confused. What does the above mean in particular the bolded part? Can you clarify?

 

I won't put words in his mouth, but my feeling is that people who think are far more likely to overthink... whereas people with less going on upstairs don't have that problem... because they can't. That's not to say all intelligent people are awkward, or all less intelligent people aren't... but I've seen it lots and lots of times. It's easier for dumb people to be confident because they don't know any better.

[tylercdurden2004]

I won't put words in his mouth, but my feeling is that people who think are far more likely to overthink... whereas people with less going on upstairs don't have that problem... because they can't. That's not to say all intelligent people are awkward, or all less intelligent people aren't... but I've seen it lots and lots of times. It's easier for dumb people to be confident because they don't know any better.

 

 

Well this thread has certainly gotten off topic from the oringinal thread however I will respond to your comments directly and maybe it will address Cordivaes as well.

 

First I want to ask what do you gain by thinking in the way above?

 

I understand exactly what your saying and what your thinking with this and I agree with the concept of it although I do not agree with the underlying reasons or issues regarding this. I agree that intelligent men (as they are the subject) can have more difficulty in asking a woman out because they over analyze. Intelligent men can also experience this difficulty in choosing and making decisions in other parts of their lives due to over-analysis. Personally I have an intelligence quotient in the upper 2% and I tend to over-analyze at times simply because I can process huge amounts of information inpart because of my personality as well. But this is often not a positive thing. So thats where I can understand what you are saying.

 

In fact people I work with will ask me why I am being negative when I am simply doing what I can do (see multiple outcomes before they happen) and what I was trained to do (contingency planning in business school). Sometimes I jsut have to tell myself to take a step back and "relax" and not worry about the outcome. This is important. Many times the outcome isnt as important as the process ( the jouney is more important than the destination) or the idea of getting s*** done. This second one is maybe the most important.

 

Whether you like it or not men are still viewed as being required to be a man and get stuff done. Very few women I have met and know want a man who is unable to make a decision. Many women also dont want a man who sit around and broods about potential outcomes. I have had the pleasure of dating/sleeping with several of what I would call powerful women. What I mean by that is these are women who are extremely intelligent, almost always very althletic, beautiful, well educated, very outgoing etc etc. Basically they are type A personalities with the whole package. I cannot think of one of them that would like a man who cannot make a decision. In fact if I have asked or if they have brought it up first, all of them want a man who is in fact a man, by standard definitions. That doesnt mean some ogre who just came out of the cave.

 

A big part of getting stuff done is knowing what you want (as best you can at the time) and going out and getting it and getting it done. This includes putting yourself out there for the woman you want. You have to allow yourself to fail. That is part of being human and is perfectly acceptable. You have to be able to let go the attactment to the outcome and accept the process (journey) as being the most important part because no matter the outcome the journey is still there. You cannot perfectly control the outcome but you can learn from the process and refine the process if needed to improve your hit rate.

 

Where I agree with you that "less intelligent" men have an advantage is in the fact that they cannot perceive a multitude of outcomes. So if a "less intelligent" man feels confident in general is stands that he will probably only see a positive outcome in his interaction with women. On the flip side if he doesnt feel confident he will probably only see a negative outcome. The advantage you have as an "intelligent man" is that you can think about other options more readily including the options of staying as you are an wallowing in self pity or making the changes for yoruself so that you can make the decisions you want and need to make particularily regarding women.

 

This is something that is covered in the book I often recommend on here: No More Mr. Nice Guy. The author explains that many if not a majority of the "nice guys" that come to see him are in fact extremely intelligent and often very creative individuals. He also states that one of the main traits of a "nice guy" is the over whelming tendency to over-analyze and thus experiencing paralysis by analysis. At your age I would strongly recommend picking up this book as you are young and can make serious positive changes in your life so you can go out and get what you want including the woman you want sharing your life.

[Batya33]

"I have had the pleasure of dating/sleeping with several of what I would call powerful women. What I mean by that is these are women who are extremely intelligent, almost always very althletic, beautiful, well educated, very outgoing etc etc. Basically they are type A personalities with the whole package."

 

 

So if a man is extremely intelligent, very athletic, all of what you described above is he a "powerful man" or just a "man?" Does a man's looks affect whether he is considered "powerful?"

 

it's sad that your description of powerful had nothing to do with whether they are giving/compassionate people, whether they use their energy or intelligence to help others, and how if they don't have those things they can possibly be "the whole package"- whose package??

 

I've been described that way in reference to my career. I understand it's meant to be a compliment but I enjoy far more being complimented for a generous spirit.

[CaptainPlanet]

In some regards don't believe individuals can ever be truly giving or compassionate I think that is the duty of a society.

[Batya33]

I don't believe people can ever be truly giving or compassionate I think that is the duty of a society.

 

That is consistent with your post above concerning your disdain for "intelligence."

 

(Not sure how "society" is supposed to be giving and compassionate without it's members being so -- unless you mean things like government welfare programs - I was talking in general about being giving to ones' friends, loved ones, family not just charitable giving).

[CaptainPlanet]

That is consistent with your post above concerning your disdain for "intelligence."

 

(Not sure how "society" is supposed to be giving and compassionate without it's members being so -- unless you mean things like government welfare programs - I was talking in general about being giving to ones' friends, loved ones, family not just charitable giving).

 

There are not many people I dislike more than those that will openly describe themselves as intelligent and talk about thier involvment with charities.

[Batya33]

LOL. I think there's a vast difference between tooting one's horn and responding to questions about intelligence and involvement with charities. I don't need to do the former thank goodness.

As far as involvement in charities what got me involved and focused were others talking about their experiences so I do try to spread the good word.

What concerns me are people who, like yourself, are overly focused on negativity and negative generalizations about people - I see that as a larger problem than "real" pollution - those attitudes pollute and damage our environment so much more particularly if there are younger people who are exposed to that negative energy and attitude.

 

I must admit though that despite the corrosive effects of your negativity I find them very entertaining much of the time!

[tylercdurden2004]

]"I have had the pleasure of dating/sleeping with several of what I would call powerful women. What I mean by that is these are women who are extremely intelligent, almost always very althletic, beautiful, well educated, very outgoing etc etc. Basically they are type A personalities with the whole package."

 

 

So if a man is extremely intelligent, very athletic, all of what you described above is he a "powerful man" or just a "man?" Does a man's looks affect whether he is considered "powerful?"

 

Batya as you will see I said etc etc as in there were other things. I could list everything however I dont really feel the need to.

 

 

 

it's sad that your description of powerful had nothing to do with whether they are giving/compassionate people, whether they use their energy or intelligence to help others,

 

I dont think its sad at all. However you are entitled to your opinion. As for compassionate yes these girls I would consider compassionate to one degree or another. In fact one of them works in public health and has donated her time to assist HIV programs in Africa. As far as donating your time and being compassionate I consider that pretty powerful.

 

But what one considers compassionate is different from person to person just like my idea of powerful is different from other people.

 

and how if they don't have those things they can possibly be "the whole package"- whose package??

 

Noone said they didnt you are assuming that. Its my package.

 

 

 

I've been described that way in reference to my career. I understand it's meant to be a compliment but I enjoy far more being complimented for a generous spirit

 

Great! Some people want to be noted for their looks, some for their intelligence, some for their kind heart. These are all external validations and at the end of the day really dont matter.

[Batya33]

Thanks for clarifying that this is your personal opinion of "powerful" and "package" -- often I see women described as "powerful" or "aggressive" when if it were a man they would just be "men."

[tmp0620]

You won't see me disagreeing with anything you said there.

 

I'm figuring that stuff out myself these days. Feels nice.

[Superfreak]

It's probably been said already, but in case it hasn't; Women are just as obsessed with other women's appearance as men are (often more obsessed).

[Superfreak]

I don't feel it too obtuse to say that women care just as much about a mans aesthetics as we care about theirs. It used to bother me to the verge of insanity, these days I just accept it as a fact of life.

 

You misread me, I'm saying women care about the appearance of other WOMEN as much as men or more quite often.

[Raiden]

You misread me, I'm saying women care about the appearance of other WOMEN as much as men or more quite often.

 

You're right, I did.