What would you do if a married woman asked you out for dinner?

[Censored]

So what happened anyway? Updates!!!! I cant read all the posts. Someone gimme the ending. Please.

[Hope75]

Haven't got time for a longer reply but just wondering where you get your figures from?

 

I'm wondering the same thing.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

I think there are different reasons for cheating. Yes, there are those women who end up in an affair because there are problems in the marriage...husband taking them for granted etc....but typically those cases involve a bond set up over time with someone from work or whatever. An emotional connection gets set up first and then things spiral out of control. In those cases there is the possibility that both partners can wake up and work out their problems and build a stronger marriage. That is very much different than your situation where the women just view you as a piece of meat and a potential good lay...they are simply out trolling for excitement. In those cases I doubt if any amount of work would salvage their sham marriage.

 

It is not the system that is broken...it is the people who cheat and their accomplice who are broken. It is the world we live in where instant gratifciation and selfishness trumps doing what is right.

[rs.dallaire]

Haven't got time for a longer reply but just wondering where you get your figures from?

 

About 23% of the American population smokes cigarettes. That's pretty easy to find on the Web.

 

The proportion of people who cheat is more difficult to assess as people are unlikely to answer honestly to this question. However most studies tend to indicate that at least one fifth of the population have cheated on their spouses.

[Censored]

Wowsers thats a lot, but yeah i suppose it could be. If one cheats then it automatically has to be two. Unless they are cheating on themselves

[rs.dallaire]

I agree with your first paragraph.

 

I think you contradict yourself in the second one though. The system is not broken but the world we live promotes this line of conduct?

 

Come on, you all know the problem is deep deep deep in the American society.

[JadedStar]

Yes and women in the category you speak of tend to start off with an emotional affair.

 

That is not the case with this woman in question. She doesn't even know this guy and might possibly be throwing herself at him.

 

I'd not touch that kind of crap with a ten foot pole. She probably has done this before and who knows what you can catch.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

I think you contradict yourself in the second one though. The system is not broken but the world we live promotes this line of conduct?

 

When you had talked about "the system", I thought you were referring to marriage and relationships....that is why I said the system isn't broken because there are plenty of people who don't cheat on their partners. I was really referring in general terms to the selfishness and instant gratification of all aspects of society...which then filters down to the relationship bond (or lack of bond).

[Rum]

thanks rs for the great reply. I understand what you are saying and a lot is truth. we've been together since high school, 22 years but 12 married.

was she unhappy? obviously. but she did not set out to have an affair, in your case she is so it's a different scenario.

what my wife wanted was the nice e-mails that made her feel important, but to keep that going they need to keep getting into it deeper and deeper and deeper. every time met, even for lunch and shared a kiss she was guilt ridden

(confirmed) then they would not have a lunch for 4 to 6 weeks (confirmed)

which would leave her enough time to convince herself that it was over with him, she didn't want to see him anymore, to start to miss the e-mails, to want to have lunch again, to go screw him. that was her affair, 1 year period off and on.

 

so like you say, she wasn't sure. she didn't want to leave but at certain points she balanced the pros and cons of seeing him.. sometimes it was no, she would not have lunch, then eventually yes. she kept battling that.

she could not tell me, didn't want to hurt me. but today it's too late, today i know everything, believe me, i know everything. today she hurts more than me. and yes now i get to decide what happens.

 

but she keeps saying if only she knew. i asked her if it was worth it, she cried for 2 days and almost threw up.

so again like you say, it's unfortunate this had to happen for her to realise she did wrong and wants to be with me. but maybe it's too late now. too much damage done.

 

keep in mind, for a 1 year period we were good and bad, but she purposely did things to get me angry and annoy me to justify her actions. even after all that, i DID NOT cheat on her, when i could have so easily.

if she was unhappy enough to cheat, going out and making things worse do not help. if you are that unhappy, end the relationship, separate then go have your jollies.

it's nothing about laws or society, to me it's just morals.

i'll go low with this, but it's the same as 2 men fighting. have a fight but fight fair. no kicking in the balls.

 

best of luck rs.

 

--rum

[strawberrycupcake]

Well, what an interesting thread! Going back to rs.dallaire's original post, in my old corporate days, I would ask guys out to lunch or dinner, whether they were married or single. It was for either lunch or dinner, nothing more. Usually what would happen is that if I really liked the person and we hit it off at lunch, then dinner was another option because it gave us more time to talk. I did this when I was single as well as when I was married. To me, it was a business transaction and business relationship.

 

In my situation, I always worked in male dominated professions, so networking was very important to keep me in the loop of what was going on. Also, corporate politics being what they are, without bumping into co-workers, which is what you would often do during lunch, conversations were more relaxed this way.

 

This method of networking helped me get accepted as one of the "guys" on many projects. The key here is conduct. If your lunch is fun, personable but still about business (or mostly about business) and there's not making goo-goo eyes, no flirting, etc. then dinner should be fine unless you have your own issues about crossing your own boundaries. If your new colleague was a little 'overfriendly' and that's only something you can know, then dinner is probably not just about business (except monkey business).

 

I think men and women can be friends only, and that this can work. A lot of it is work and professional culture, and subcultural stuff too. Until my current boyfriend, I've never known men who didn't have female friends even if they were married. It was a bit of an adjustment for my current guy to get used to the fact that I had a lot of guy friends, especially from business school.

 

Whatever the situation, context is what runs it and a person's personal commitment to their own values is what ultimately determines anything relating to their own behavior.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Excellent post and I agree 100% with the last paragraph.

[Batya33]

I agree too, work in a male-dominated profession and that is how i conduct myself. No issues yet and if there were - if I felt that he was crossing the line I would simply know for next time to keep it to lunch in a conference room in the office.

[rs.dallaire]

Hey Rum,

 

One thing that I'm sure you understand is that your wife wasn't unhappy because you were lacking something. She was unhappy simply because she wondered what was out there. Most women with opportunities nowadays share the same battle.

 

Let me tell you something, 22 years with someone is one fine love story. Your wife may have had her weak moments, it becomes easier to understand when you view life as a cycle rather than a straight line. If you still love her and if you still enjoy spending time with her, then you should view the 22 years of your relationship as a whole and consider her cheating as a symptom rather than a cause.

 

What your wife did wasn't kosher and in no way can be justified. However, sometimes you're so desperate that kicking someone in the balls is the only way to survive.

 

If you ask yourself "why did she do this" rather than "how could she do this", you'll find a few answers for yourself. Some people cheat because they don't give a * * * * . Other people cheat because they felt like they had no other alternative.

[Batya33]

it's fine to feel you have no alternative but the reality is you always do. You can (1) choose not to cheat; or (2) choose to divorce and then date, have sex, whatever.

[rs.dallaire]

it's fine to feel you have no alternative but the reality is you always do. You can (1) choose not to cheat; or (2) choose to divorce and then date, have sex, whatever.

 

If it were that simple then nobody would cheat!

 

A discussion about whether someone should cheat or not would be quite short: the answer is NO!

 

If we are to discuss together on this board we should do it in a constructive way and offer ideas that might help others. "Don't do it" and "it's bad" won't take us very far.

 

Leave your anger behind and let's talk about the real problems.

[Batya33]

No - the people who cheat simply do not choose to uphold their vows. Your argument is flawed in presuming that people who cheat do so because there are no other alternatives.

 

You sound like the angry one actually - and the one who is judging those who believe in marital commitments and honesty/integrity of character, because you are very focused on getting some from this married woman and you don't want to hear the simple truth - there is always an alternative and people who have a set of ethics and values that include upholding their promises and commitments choose one of the two alternatives. No one "has to" have sex outside of a marital relationship - it's not life threatening to abstain from that while getting divorced.

 

I am not angry in the least - I do feel badly for her children and her husband and what they will have to suffer based on her breaking her marital vows and you being a willing participant.

 

 

And I am offering a constructive suggestion - if she wants to have sex with you, she can leave her husband. That way she can have sex without cheating and sneaking around. And of course the third alternative - to ask her husband for an open marriage. Less likely but yet another alternative to adultery.

Ahh and yet another constructive suggestion - there is at least one major affair support board - where they are all in affairs or contemplating affairs so you will be in good company and pick up some tips on how to sneak around.

[rs.dallaire]

I'm not even arguing with you. I agree with all of your points.

 

Then why do so many people cheat?

[Batya33]

I don't know about "why" "people" cheat as I am sure there are many reasons - unhappy with marriage, want to explore sexuality, temptations outside the marriage, boredom, choosing to get drunk or stoned and act out, etc. It's the same reason so many people use illegal drugs, cheat and steal from other people, are abusive, etc.

 

Different people have different sets of standards, values, ethics and morals. Just because many do an immoral act doesn't make it right or anyone's fault but that person's (until proven otherwise - for example I am sure there are studies about why crime rate is higher in certain areas of a city than others and that a change in environment lowers the crime rate, etc but I can't speculate as to marriage).

 

It still comes down to choice. No one forces someone to marry - it's a privilege (I am leaving out arranged marriages or third world situations where the woman marries her rapist, etc), no one forces someone to promise monogamy, and divorce, separation, and open marriages are all options. No one is forced to cheat (again leaving out arranged marriages and I will also except where one spouse is a vegetable/life long coma - that does limit options and change the morals/values pretty dramatically).

[Rum]

hi rs,

after 1 month separated, after all the details she has told me, i asked her to write "a book" so to speak. i received that copy in my hands 3 hours ago.

 

it contains 13 pages of details, from the start of her relationship, how it started, to the end of the relationship, how it ended.

 

I know all the times she lied, all the times they met, how many times, what was done, how they could do it, how she regretted every time,( after a certain stage was passed), how she feels non worthy, sorry she lost our intamacy forever, sorry she * * * * ed up my life, sorry for the potential hurt our child may suffer, sorry how she lost her self respect,sorry that what she needed and wanted was right beside her all the time, realises all the damage she has caused, knows she lost my respect, trust, love, intimacy forever, how much i was a positive and bigger person, she admires me, she was so blind-so blind-so blind-so blind, she learned she did the biggest mistake in her life. (all this on page 10)

 

Oh yes, she's also expecting divorce papers from me.

 

You see rs, she did NOT have to do this. You can psycho babble all you want about the needs of people. Some of us already know what damages 'fooling' around will cost everyone involved. She sees she was blind.

 

She got caught up in a 'player' like yourself. Like you say, if it's not a guy like you it would have been someone else. I know that. And she admitted as much.

 

She can't remember why she did it, she doesn't know why she didn't stop at her first kiss (which she says he was a bad kisser). She did not spare details,

she did not say he was bad at kissing to make me feel better, because she did not withold other info. 2 times he could't get it up, but he got it up 8 other times, with a timeline included, and where it happened.

 

Geezus, i told her i needed certain answers and she delivered.

 

She was not unhappy per se, but did like the attention she got from this guy, he made her feel important and valued, that was it. He's not even a good looking guy, and she almost throws up now just thinking of him.

She was not 'looking what was out there', it happened, and slowly at that.

I know the details of her first kiss, the circumstances, how it happened, and how they kissed 1 month later, then did not have any contact for 6 months.

 

The woman i married is the woman i see today. The woman who was straight up, no holds barred, who thought of others at all times, who would stop at nothing to make our lives together so great. That woman disapeared at the end of 2006, but she is back big time at the end of 2007. It hurts her so much to have to tell me all this, in detail, but she knows i want/need those details.

 

Don't worry rs, the "why did she do this" was known from the start, lack of communication, we took each other for granted, i didn't treat her as the special person she is. I got a warning from her last year that we needed to change, but she had already started her affair. The emotional connection she needed was impossible as she had shut her connection from me. She has come out of it now and it is HER who is working overtime to win me back.

 

That is flatering, and i'm honored that she realises her mistakes. But after all this, with all the damage done, she has left me with the choice of keeping her and working our marriage or dropping her at the curb.

Right now there are too many demons running around in my head. If they never go away i cannot go back to her.

Damage done.

 

If i can be a big person (like she is proving now) and put this behind us, the bond we will have together for the rest our lives will be so, so strong. yes, we will always need to keep working it. but we will working on a relationship of trust and honesty. it's up to me to be able to put the demons away, time will tell if i can or not.

 

as a sidenote, i have the other man's phone number, cell number, work number, e-mail and where he lives. I already knew where he worked.

she even gave me his wife's name ( so i can compare notes with her if i so choose)

my wife * * * * ed up, but she is fessing up big time. she has completely gave me the ball.

 

so ask her if "she wondered what what out there". she never did. she got caught up and knew it was wrong. and be careful what you ask, she may just throw up on you.

 

the person with values and morals and self esteem that i married is coming back to her senses. i should be so lucky if it didn't hurt so much.

 

--rum

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Oh Rum, this must be so incredibly painful...knowing all the details must hurt like hell. Just keep focusing on the here and now...the past is over and she feels a lot of remorse. The only way to get through this is to focus on the present, not the past.

[Rum]

ya well, i'll deal with my crap.

 

this is rs' thread. so i'll answer the actual question he originally asked;

"What would you do if a married woman asked you out for diner?"

 

I'd say no.

 

-Rum

[Sketch]

RS:

Some people cheat because they don't give a * * * * . Other people cheat because they felt like they had no other alternative.

Can this logic be applied to behavior other than cheating?

 

What if someone insults me in public and rather than walk away or discuss the problem, I decide to punch them in the face because I felt there was no other alternative?

 

What if I decide I don't like waking up at 5am and going to work every day to make an honest living, but I need money, so I feel like I have no other alternative than to start selling drugs to make ends meet?

 

What if I come home from a long day at work with some flowers and a bottle of wine to share with my SO, only to find my SO in our bed with another man...and I decide to kill both of them because, in the heat of the moment, I feel I have no other alternative?

 

RS:

Then why do so many cheat?

 

Why do so many people...lie, abuse, manipulate, deceive, rape, molest, steal, kill,...why do people do anything that they do...

I think the answers are as infinite as the questions. People are unique and have their own reasons for making their decisions, but regardless of the reason there is always a choice.

 

 

In the end we have to determine if the behavior is acceptable to us and us alone. Our values should not be determined by the number of people that engage in a specific behavior or whether society has accepted it as "normal".

 

 

 

 

 

Batya:

Just because many do an immoral act doesn't make it right or anyone's fault but that person's

Thank you for saying that Batya33.

[pianoguy]

I think really what it comes down to is whether you believe cheating is wrong or not- if it's wrong, it's wrong regardless, or if it's okay, it's okay regardless.

 

I'm ambivalent about the issue. I definitely oppose cheating if there are kids involved but other than that I don't have strong opinions- I myself wouldn't cheat once in a marriage but I don't think I would universally condemn other people in such situations.

 

I do have to question what the point of marriage is if you don't intend on being faithful. I don't think most marriages are entered emotionally- generally they're proceeded by a long period of courting which should give you plenty of time to decide whether you're able to faithful or not. If you don't think you can be faithful, I don't see why you would want to get married. Living a Bohemian lifestyle with various lovers can be very satisfying to some people- why throw that away if you don't want to do it? Society certainly doesn't pressure people to be married the way they used to- especially men, but women also.

 

This is the primary reason I am not married yet. I've been completely faithful to my boyfriend for two years, but until I know for sure that I can spend the rest of my life that way I have no intention of getting married.

 

I think that anyone going into a marriage has a pretty clear idea of whether they will be able to stay faithful. If you can't, don't do it. Just have lovers on the side- be happy. Don't tie yourself down if you can't do it.

 

But once you make that commitment, I think it's important to take it seriously. Otherwise it becomes a kind of joke, and especially if there are kids involved, it can be very hurtful.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

There are some people who go into a marriage knowing full well that they won't be faithful...that variety is the spice of life. Yes, those are the people who shouldn't be married in the first place. However, the majority of people who cheat did not enter into the marriage with cheating on their mind. You can't predict how your life is going to go. These people got married with the best of intentions. Sometimes things happen that people go astray. I am not saying it is right...I am just saying that most people who cheat probably once upon a time thought that they would never be that kind of person.

[pianoguy]

However, the majority of people who cheat did not enter into the marriage with cheating on their mind. You can't predict how your life is going to go. These people got married with the best of intentions. Sometimes things happen that people go astray. I am not saying it is right...I am just saying that most people who cheat probably once upon a time thought that they would never be that kind of person

 

Yes, I suppose that is true... perhaps all we can really ask of a married person is to give it an honest effort, and if it doesn't end up working, it doesn't end up working.

 

I wonder, though, if the increased options a person has in the modern world is a hindrance to marital commitment. Now that affairs and divorce are possibilites, people feel that they don't have to stay in a marriage that isn't perfect. It's easier to stray when straying is an option.

 

I'm not suggesting that most divorces aren't legit, and I think the increased options have been greatly beneficial to women especially.

 

I recall reading a study that said that in India people tend to be happier in their arranged marriages, then we are here in the West where we have the freedom to marry whomever we choose. Maybe we place too great expectations on marriage- we expect to be in love with our spouse at 60 the same way at 20, wheras in India love is something that develops over the course of time out of necessity.

 

I think a lot of this has to do with the way we are cut off from our community and society in general. In the modern day we are very isolated- we live in neighborhoods where we don't know anybody, and so in a sense our marriage becomes our whole community. Kurt Vonnegut summed it up pretty well- he said that in Africa, when you marry, you are getting not just a husband, but a whole family- literally hundreds of cousins, aunts, etc. that become your new friends, a community that cares about you. He said that when we divorce, what we are really saying to our spouse is, "You are not enough people!"

 

I wonder if marriages that have lots of mutual friends are more likely to last than marriages that are more isolated.

 

Anyways, I've strayed way OT, apologies.