Relationship With X

[just M.E.]

Silly me, I should know better, now I feel like the south end of the north bound horse.

 

Yes, we always want to apply rational thought and reason to irrational people. I am guilty and have watched the attorneys involved in my divorce fall into this trap also. It is a normal human condition, we want to believe that all persons are rational.

[John Bendix]

In loking back. there were times before, during, and after the dissolution of the marriage, my X had opportunities (same as me) to do "the right thing". These times had nothing to do with reconcilliation of the relationship or my own wants and needs.

 

What I mean be the right thing as acting in a way that demonstrates compassion for all of those involved. Compassion is having the sense that you have a connection with others. With this guiding your decisions, you will not take action as to harm anyone. Self involvement, at a huge level (for whatever reasons), simply cannot co-exist with compassion. It seems the more you have of one the less you have of the other.

 

That being said, there were times, crossroads if you will, where opportunities were there for my X to take the "high road". Some of these opportunities just presented themselves. I could sense it in her demeanor that she knew it too. Her response was usually one of high emotion though there was none being expressed in the situation. Anger, blame, hostility, denial, etc., all came out in a way that seemed out of context. It was though she was using the anger (pain) inside of her to persuade herself not to listen to her compassion. Her need to take care of herself first (for emotional survival reasons) was overwhelming. As I was said many times, I believe that the pent up pain inside of her was directing her decision making processes.

[John Bendix]

I remember the classic line that My X threw at me a dozen or so times when she had made up her mind to be own her own. Any attempt of mine to reconcile, seek counseling, change our relationship, etc., was met with the oft used, "Too little, too late". I do not believe in this generalization to justify actions in any aspect of life. Circumstances and situations change every second.

 

My grand nephew (my sister's grandson), who is 16, was this week diagnosed with a rare form of cancer in his hip. the prognosis is not that good. My niece, his mother, is divorced with two kids. Her husband and her married right out of high school and split after a couple of years of marrige. She actually left the kids be raised between the father, his parants, her parents, and my parents (the great-grand parents), all over the East Coast. Even at the times she had them, she wanted to go out alot and have fun which got her into many fights with her mother and grandmother. She wanted to party through her 20's.

 

My question is, would she trade any of those years for one more day with her son? I truly feel compassion for her because she is not taking this very well at all.

[just M.E.]

John -

 

I feel for your neice but at the same time I could not have let anyone raise my daughter even part time, I took motherhood rather feriously, for right or wrong. She may be haunted by her actions for some time to come, I hope she finds a way to forgive herself but most of all I hope she is there for her son no matter how difficult it becomes.

 

I often joke that I am an idiot savant in my life ... I had to say goodbye to my sister-in-law about 5 days before she passed, she looked at me and said "I won't see you again" and I replied "Yes, you will, you're just getting there first". Then we both smiled and it was our parting. Remind her of that, he may get there before her, but it isn't over.

[thejigsup]

I am not supporting how your ex wives handled these situations by any means. They were mean, self-centered, and thoughtless. That being said, there is so much pressure put on women in our society to be obedient and follow the norm of getting married. So many of us do. Years down the road, these same women realize that they do not like being married at all. For their own sanity, they have to leave. What your exes did wrong was blame it all on you so they would not feel guilty. Society has a way of making women feel guilty for not following the "rules", and by desiring to leave a fairly good marriage and its responsibilities in order to really be yourself is breaking the "rules". Big time. So I understand the place your wives were coming from, I have been there myself though I was married only about two years. I do not agree in any way, shape, or form with how they handled it. But being truthful and outspoken if you are unhappy is still frowned upon in our society when women do it to some extent. It is easier to blame someone else for our actions, that way society does not "punish" us.

[John Bendix]

Jigisup,

 

Thank you for your comments. I have been trying to look at how the women (and men) who walkaway from marriages see it.

 

When you say "for their own sanity", is it the torn between "having" to be married and feeling trapped that causes the internal conflict? I would go along with that even though there are many other factors to be considered.

 

I know that society with its norms, mores, peer pressure, and so on, can exert an influence on every person but it is still that individual's decision to go along with it. No matter how hard it seems to fight it.

 

I am all for truthful. I liked the fact that my X spoke her mind and was strong. But to leave in the manner that you described is not strength. If people want to leave a marriage, who am I or anyone else to tell them that they cannot. But to do so in a irrational, angry, untruthful and non-compassionate way is dysfunctional and will lead to no good for everyone concerned. It MAY (notice the word) be a sign of emotional instability, not the act itself but how it is accomplished. The end does not justify the means.

 

I do understand your point.

[kuiks8]

jigsup has a repetitive theme.

 

She walked away from her man, and needs to justify it to herself, by posting on every wounded male thread that shows up on this forum.

 

She doesn't get that this man's pain isn't about her.

 

Your post is harsh and unnecessary if anything I think jigsup is trying to shed light on why things like this happen from a female perspective...and as far as i can tell she has done it in a respectful manner unlike yourself...

[just M.E.]

I still believe that what happens when a marriage fails is based within the individuals and this is not gender specific. Societal pressures are there for both men and women although different. To say the pressures are unique for women is to say we as women cannot hold strong to our beliefs and bow to these societal pressures. Yes this happens for some, and I am sure it plays a part when they face a time in their life where they want to find their happiness, but I think this has it's counterpart for men also. They are bound by the pressure of our society to provide for their families and appear strong and in control.

 

As a young woman I went to work in an all male environment, in underground mining, it has been my goal from that time to break down the barriers between the genders, to show the similarities of the human condition. It is for us as women to open the minds of others and it is for men to do the same. Between us all we learn to see that we both feel pain and suffering, hurt and shame, fear and remorse in the same ways.

 

I hope my daughter and granddaughter will always feel this universal similarities. If I can break the barriers I did, surely we here can find the way to tear down the small walls of bias that seem to hide in us.

 

My apologies John, for hijacking your thread.

[lostandhurt]

I don't care what gender you are. Treating others the way you would like to be treated is the only way. Some here did it the best way possible, others here had it done to them the worst way possible. Putting yourself first above all others by lying, betraying and cheating is not being truthful to yourself unless that is the person you hope to become by your actions. Some of us learn these things when we are young others after we have grown up and done things we are not proud of. Divorce doesn't change that!

[whodathunk]

I just need to vent.

 

Do you ever just get "suddenly" tired of being in a divorce? I know that sounds too obvious, but I don't know how to express this feeling better than that. After the horrible shock and the bottomless depression, I feel like I managed to climb into a "new normal" where I have resided for the last six months or so.

 

And most of the time its ok, I get through the days, and have fun with the kids when they are here and even manage to enjoy myself on my own. And I feel changed for the better in a lot of ways, little bumps in the road don't really bother me the way they did before all this happened. I stopped trying to see too far ahead and now just cross one bridge at a time. It feels healthier.

 

But once in awhile.... all of it just piles on me all at once and I feel I just get overwhelmed to the point of a panic attack.

 

I miss my life. I miss my kids being here when I get home from work. I miss my sense of purpose. I hate that it was all so trivialized. I'm tired of being alone. Im tired of things like picking up dry cleaning becoming a logistical nightmare. I'm tired of the dark sadness that creeps in at night. I'm tired of "managing" friends and family and work. I'm tired of trying to front like "I'm doing great!". I'm tired of the inane conversations with her. The strange rewriting of almost my entire adult life experience. I'm tired of lawyers. I'm tired of watching all the money we scraped so hard to save just bleeding away. I'm tired of watching my kids act like little troopers. I'm tired of their sad teary eyes when we have to say good bye.

 

I never knew just what divorce was, and I truly never knew it would happen to me, and I really just hate it.

 

 

That's all. I know it doesn't really mean anything outside of what it is, but I just needed to type it out. And thanks to this community for letting me.

[Mek]

Whoda,

 

I feel for you man. I know after my 6 months of separation and NC for 3 months, I'd say I am feeling better... but yeah... every once in a while I get this big weight of sadness feeling. I can usually shake it off after a short while, but sometimes it just lingers. My relationship with the X is none... though I wish at times she would just listen to some logic though... I told her to just pay half of our property tax, which is what I did, and she didn't. But the gov doesnt accept half payments, so now I have to accept the penalties for her asinine (legit word) actions. And as I understand it the penalties for missed property tax payments are really steep. Her greed and selfishness is as petty as a human being can be. So yeah no relationship with a mentally unhealthy person such as my stbxw is great but, I know without big help from God, my stbxw could cause me a great deal of unnecessary grief still with her tirades.... and for John... I never wanted to be divorced.. and would have and did put up with way too much to support the unity of marriage.... but I know even now that my own mental health was at risk being with someone with the BPD illness. So in the long run I am much better off.

 

But from all of this... I am glad that everyone here has expressed their true feelings in a considerate an open a manner as they can... Though onecos... you are still hurting if you really think jigsup has an unfairly biased opinion. The forum here is, and has been, really great... allowing all of us to really express our feelings. Saying your opinion without being hurtful here, should be accepted openly in this forum. We are all here to support one another.

I just hope I can share as many good insights as I have received.

 

Thanks to all,

 

-Mek

[John Bendix]

Mek,

 

"and for John... I never wanted to be divorced.. and would have and did put up with way too much to support the unity of marriage.... but I know even now that my own mental health was at risk being with someone with the BPD illness. So in the long run I am much better off."

 

I am assuming that you are directing this at me. I do not think anyone has captured in words the sentiments I have felt so perfectly.

 

 

Whodathunk,

 

"I miss my life... I'm tired of the inane conversations with her. The strange rewriting of almost my entire adult life experience." I think you could have said, "I'M TIRED", and left it at that.

 

You know that I have been there also, I am with you on this.

[just M.E.]

Mek -

 

I understand, I have been told my willingness to continue trying to salvage a marriage bordered on deranged

 

But as you know and others here also, one person cannot do this alone and in the end you have to give into this reality. Not a nice reality, we always hope there is one more option. I am aways amazed that some thread of sanity remains within me after what I have been through.

[John Bendix]

Just got a call from my X (been weeks) and she started to interrogate me as to the condition of our sons even though I text messaged her on what she needed to know. She has not called them in weeks.

 

She immediately went into the things that I am doing wrong with raising the children. I told her that "backseat" parenting is pretty easy especially when you do not want to pay your share of the medical bills and child support. She ignores this and continues to statethat she should have the kids because she is the mother and that is the way it is supposed to go. I have "brainwashed" the kids against her. Got them to live with me because of my manipulative ways, etc. A couple of weeks ago she was even listening to me telling her how she needed to go about being with her children. Now I am again a minion

of satan, in her eyes.

 

What it comes down to, and it seems to me it always does in life, is acceptance vs. non-acceptance. She has never accepted the fact the kids wanted to live with me. She has never accepted that they do not want to spend time with her. She has never accepted that she is accountable for her actions in regards to her children or that said actions even occurred! She will continue to suffer through denial and repression until she accepts what is.

[just M.E.]

I have "brainwashed" the kids against her. Got them to live with me because of my manipulative ways, etc. A couple of weeks ago she was even listening to me telling her how she needed to go about being with her children. Now I am again a minion of satan, in her eyes..

 

John, I'm getting this feeling of deja vu, this is a broken record, ask her for perverse entertainment value, if she has nothing new to say, to mix it up a little. It has to be like listening to nails on the blackboard, over and over and over ...... ad nauseaum.

 

What it comes down to, and it seems to me it always does in life, is acceptance vs. non-acceptance. She has never accepted the fact the kids wanted to live with me. She has never accepted that they do not want to spend time with her. She has never accepted that she is accountable for her actions in regards to her children or that said actions even occurred! She will continue to suffer through denial and repression until she accepts what is.

 

We all know that this is the root of her anger, dysfunction. When a person can face their actions and see honestly, anyone of moderately decent character tries to correct bad and harmful behavior.

 

I talked with a medical doctor today who actually knows my ex, without implying a diagnosis, He/she said that the ex is Borderline Personality with a good healthy dose of narcissism mixed in. There is some closure in that for me to know that is seem by someone with a "trained" eye, knowing also that a disorder of this nature is rarely treated because uniformly they deny there is any problems with their actions. Sound familiar?

[John Bendix]

To quote the famous philosopher Yogi Berra, "It's like deja vu all over again!"

[Tigger67]

Whodathunk-- Just to go back to your post on venting--needs to be done. I find that doing that and using this forum as a place to do it, and finding so many people addressing similar plights, is what keeps me from totally going mad! I can relate to both you and Mek. It has been almost a year and a half since my divorce, and there are many issues that are better or getting better, but there are still moments that creep in and consume ones mind.

 

I too feel that emptiness still. The sadness. The deafening silence of an empty house when my daughter is not here, and the sick feeling in my stomach every time I need to drop her off at her mother's knowing that I will return to that empty house. That desire to have a 'real' conversation with my X for just the plain enjoyment of having a conversation, and not it just being about our daughter, wondering if I am angry with her, or wanting a favor of me. She was my best friend, and foolishly I did not keep up with old friendships or initiate new ones, as I thought ours was all I needed and was lasting through time. I do miss that.

 

It is easy to say, but you do just need to deal with each day as it comes and resign yourself to the fact that not every day is going to be a good day. I still need to remind myself of that on a regular basis. I think of the phrase "This too shall pass". But sometimes I just wish it would pass a bit quicker than it seems to be doing!

 

And while I am venting, I will briefly touch on a few issues that have been discussed in a few previous posts. I never thought much about the "Hi, it's me" line until I read that post and then it happened just the other day. Message on my phone "Hi it's me ...blah blah blah.." Very interesting. It tends to bring about different perspectives in what's being said and why.

I am still having a hard time with what I percieve to be 'mixed messages' from my X. Example, an e-mail I received from her a month ago stating "I have so many things I want to say to you...but hardly know where to begin...or how to make them come out right..if that is even possible..or there is a right way to say something." Of course there has been nothing more since and I get sucked back into that whole state of wondering and anxiety, etc. etc. It makes it difficult to move forward with stuff like that.

 

The saying "The more things change, the more they stay the same" comes to mind. I can sort of see this in your situation John. The same old stuff keeps popping up on a 'irregular' basis, disallowing us to really move-on. I find it ironic that they are the ones that left and wanted to change and move-on, yet they do not allow us that same opportunity.

 

Again though, just venting. And tomorrow is another day. It will come whether I want it to or not, so I will just deal with it then!

[Mek]

Hey Tigger,

 

Hang in there... and I hope this is not too.. out of place for me to bring up ... but just some alternative advice... we all need someone at times to talk to, even if it is just to distract us from the weight of the pain we are feeling... so I would suggest something that in my opinion has helped me in noticeable way... and that is the fact that I have a huge friends base via IM (Instant messanger- means you'll need a computer- but I assume that's how u post here.. )

I suggest to you that you make a group of friends large enough that you'll always find someone on to talk to at any time of the day, I have perhaps a hundred in europe and fiftyish in Asia, to keep that feeling of lonliness away.

This may be an odd sort of advice... but I think it has been very meaningful for me. I use a free tool called Trillian and I hook up with MSN, AIM, YIM, and ICQ, this way I can find my friends any IM way that I need. There is always someone to talk to all around the world, so you wont have to feel so alone and by yourself in an empty house during those difficult time. This Helps a lot I think. So if you or anyone else wants to contact me during one of those times, send me a PM, and I will send you my IM contact information.

 

(PS ...And believe me it is safe, since you always have the option to block someone if you think they are a threat to you in any way)

 

I hope my suggestion is not offensive in any way.

 

-Mek

[John Bendix]

Mek,

 

You make a good point. That is why enotalone, and other outlets, become important avenues for all of us to gain insight into these situations and our own thoughts and reactions.

 

Tigger,

 

As I have said before, the biggest source of my suffering was the fact that I could not (and seemingly cannot) have a rational conversation with my X. She did go out of her way to end our connection in order to justify her wanting to be on her own. I could expound (and have) on this forever.

 

Again, acceptance of what is right now, is the key.

[scornandtorn]

As I have said before, the biggest source of my suffering was the fact that I could not (and seemingly cannot) have a rational conversation with my X. She did go out of her way to end our connection in order to justify her wanting to be on her own. QUOTE]

 

John

 

My ex exactly the same. I tried so hard to rationalize with her, on at least a civil basis, but she was too far gone. Every conversation was a ploy to get me angry and further justify her behavior. A restraining order finally stopped her aggression toward me.

 

The last time I saw her outside of a court room was when she was setting me up for a potentially rational conversation that ended at my front door with her screaming at me until I closed and locked the door. After a few short minutes of her trying to kick the door down she was literally trying to break through the front picture window. I video taped the whole thing from within the house while her new boyfriend just sat in the car like a deer in headlights.

 

This is when I realized I had no choice but to accept what has happened and forced myself to move forward with my life without her.

[just M.E.]

scorn

 

WOW! Mental health isn't for everyone, is it?

 

I'm not making fun of it, this is my version of gallows humor, how I cope.

 

My ex threw a chair through the glass front door of our business and gave me "Look what you made me do". I was simply shocked, I didn't know people behaved like that outside of Lifetime Daytime Drama Movie Specials.

 

There is nothing in a relatively sane and normal life that prepares you to deal with this.

I saw a doctor last week who knew my husband and knew we are now divorced. He took the time to say to me "_______, you know he's Borderline don't you?"

 

Gee, and he said I was the only one who thought he had a problem. In fact he tried to convince me I had deep mental health issues, which given the fact I did not immediately leave the marriage but tried to work it out, may be true!

[John Bendix]

ME,

 

Not more than a week ago, my X told me over the phone that no one else thinks there is, or has been, anything wrong with her or her actions, except me. But people sees only what they want to see and even change what they sees in their mind to fit into their perception of themselves. She told me that I "made" her go to see doctors. This is interesting since she would not even have a conversation with me ("There nothing to talk about. I do not believe or trust you). The doctors knew she was not stable but she denies that they told her that she needed some help. I was there.

 

To me, denial of what is, is totally contrary to acceptance. This being the basis of a rational thought process, emotional stability, and the beginning of our realization that we are connected to all that is.

[just M.E.]

John,

 

What I learned from the doctors, psychiatrists and therapists that he and I had used through the short period we tried counseling, was that his and other personality disorders are considered non treatable because the person who has that particular dysfunction believes there is nothing wrong with them. That denial is part of the dysfunction, and therapy and mental health efforts can never get through that denial.

 

I had at one time hope that there was a way through his dysfunction, but I was the one who gained the acceptance in learning it couldn't be different unless he wanted to change and that was not going to happen.

 

Asking that kind of acceptance from him would be like asking the lion to become a vegetarian, it wasn't going to happen.

[John Bendix]

I just told M.E. this but I think it is important to post here also.

 

MY X had given me a hard time out of nowhere two weeks ago over the phone. She called and disquised it with wanting some info about our youngest. This lead to alot of accusations, distorted historical events, and character assassination of me on her part. I just hung up.

 

Today she called and went way out of her way to ask me how I was doing and how things were going as if we were old chums. She has not done this in the two years since she left. I maintain N/C the best tha I am able.

 

This is the same person that 10 days ago who screamed at me that I had brainwashed her children against her and other dispicable acts. I asked what she wanted to discuss about our youngest because that is what I am required to do. She immediately flipped right back over to attack mode (Dr. Jekyl, anyone?). I just hung up. She called right back and I told her to leave me be and pay all of her back child support and medical bills. I then hung up again. She text messaged me and said she just wanted to give some medical advice for my great nephew (???) but forget it because I was a jerk.

 

M.E. has said it perfectly that the medical community states that they cannot help certain emotional disorders because the person has to be willing to accept the fact that they have a problem. Chemical addictions, Bi-polar disorder, many forms of clinical depression, boarderline personality disorders, etc., all seem to share this.

 

Here comes my disclaimer:

"Not all persons who divorce have emotional problems".

[surfjon]

John,

Sorry you're still going thru this with her, whenever I see my STBX's # show on my phone I cringe, it's like "what now???".

 

It always starts off adversarial and degrades into sadness and despair and it's so draining, I feel so exhausted afterward.

 

We sign final agreements May 15, nearly 10 months after she left.

 

Peace to all here...............