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Relationship With X


John Bendix

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I have to relate the latest interaction of my X but it is with my youngest. He refuses to go stay with her (never has) and shuns her phone calls. My two oldest boys do not like dealing with her also. this, of course, has been blamed on me. They are 16, 20, and 22.

 

She told him that she never should have left. That it was the wrong thing to do. this is after two and half years of telling everyone, including our sons (and incredibly me also), that I threw her out. To add, she has never said to them that she was sorry for the dissolution of the marriage and family and shown no remorse or guilt for her actions. The only emotion that they have seen is anger and the appearance of the Disneyland, "everything is so wonderful and I am so happy" portrayed image. They dislike both.

 

It seems that she is saying this to him to win back his confidence towards her. The suggestions I have made to her in regards to her sons is to be genuine. She has always retorted that she is always genuine. Sorry, not true.

 

Given her history of denial and avoidance of the truth at all costs, whether this is really genuine, who can say?

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Scary stuff, John. How does your son deal with this information? I would think it would generate conflict or confusion.

 

Why tell him? Why not bring this subject up to you, like a mature and responsible parent and let you and her deal with this first before "dumping" this baggage on your son?

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M.E.,

 

As you well know, she is deperate. Her way has yielde no results. It was by my suggestion to help her that she try a different, more truthful, less manipulative approach. I try to imagine to myself what it would be like if my three sons, of their own free will, do not want to interact with me much for the past 2 and half years? Refused to return phone calls or answer the calls. No hell can be conceived by me to be worse.

 

Her already troubled emotional state (and ego) has been further sent down the tubes but who refusal to face the truth and live in denial.

 

You used the terms mature and responsible. Enough said.

 

She was trying to act as most human beings would to show him that she is a good person by admitting to wrongdoing. whether she really believes it or not. Who knows? Either does my son. Could be another trip down manipulation lane. She has screamed at me many times, "I am a good person!"Told me recently that she does not believe thather kids do not want to be with her. This despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

 

Some wonder why I have not taken to drink? I would be afraid thatif I did, I would not stop! (joking)

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"Some wonder why I have not taken to drink? I would be afraid thatif I did, I would not stop! (joking)"

 

Ahhh, yes, I know that feeling well, and have often thought the wee sip might do me sould some good, but then I am such a hard core drinker, I forget to take a drink.

 

Living with an alcoholic makes one reluctant to have an adult beverage alone, I've watched the damage, scary stuff in that also.

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Amen John... These interactions could drive anybody absolutely bloody bonkers.. Well done to you for having handle this with so much of calm & composure.

 

I guess each of the children would build their own equation with their mother and it would be best for you to entirely stay away from that process..

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Benga,

 

It would be the way to go, to let the children take their own course with their mother. They are all young men. And the fact thatshw blames me for having an estranged relationship with them, does not bother anymore. It is her delusion for not being able to accept responsibility for her actions and reaction. As always, I am the culprit. So be it. I accept that this is the way she perceives it.

 

She called my middle son (20) and started yelling at for not looking after a close friend from high school who has gotten into drugs. He was trying to tell that he tried but the friend is irrational and will not listen and justs fights with him. So he has left him alone as all of the crowd (still pretty tight) that hung out together has done. He finally had to tell her to calm down and then finally had to get off the phone. It is so sad that she does not get it.

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Over the last couple weeks, my ex and I have been arranging a surgery for my son, a minor eye surgery, but something that requires interaction between us both.

 

We actually all had a very nice lunch one day after a pre-op, my daughter also so it was very nice. Very nice, and very painful at the same time as the kids wanted to go to a place we used to all love to go with a lovely courtyard and a fountain. A place from a happier time. After it was done, thay all left and I just felt empty.

 

Yesterday was the surgery and thankfully, all went well. My ex and I had to keep him calm for about 3 hours, waiting for anesthesia. It was nice we were able to be natural and friendly, able to joke and keep the situation light with no "awkward" silences or moments.

 

I genuinely enjoyed being there talking with her and catching up while he was in surgery and in recovery, we even took a walk outside........

 

As we walked, I really missed that she's not my wife anymore. I really had to try to not get "misty", I was constantly on the brink.....

 

I watch her and remember her gentle nature and how she took such great care of the kids, and still does.

 

As I helped my son into her car, I kept my smile on as they drove away.

 

I put my dark sunglasses and completely lost it on the way to my truck.

I couldn't drive for about 5 minutes and went home so drained I just fell into bed.

 

These times are hard for us in this position. The closeness in dealing with an issue such as surgery or a death in a family require these close interactions that may generate feelings of "togetherness" which are only false manifestations of what we think we once had.

 

Nothing more.

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surfjon,

Glad the procedure went well. I too had to endure the stbx during major surgery and recovery for my son. Luckily he stayed with me all 5 weeks as I took care of him. He has stayed with me full time anyways since she left months ago. I hope mine goes more like yours than Johns (no offense buddy). I wish there were no more members of our club on here......it saddens me.

 

lost

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confusedmama,

 

If you think that I have said all the right things to my X when aon a rare occasion that we speak, You are mistaken. I'm learnig to calm the drama by accepting what is and by seeing through my ego in order that it does no dominate my existence.

 

I have felt myself get caught up in emotional reactions. I do not raise my voice (as I have not in over 5 years) but her irrational comments and spoken untruths do get to me. Now, I just get off the phone.

 

I have posted the zen master and his repsonse of, Is that so?", to everything that he was told. If someone senses that they can get you to react, they will try. pull your strings, they will. But they are your strings to pull or not. It is merely a reaction to his words or deeds. It is in the reaction that creates these unpleasant feeling for ourselves, not in the onslaught thrown our way.ore.

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As I sat here this evening I was wondering to myself, why is it so peaceful 'now' as opposed to the constant attacks from my x wife that have consumed my life for the last couple of years?

 

Many thoughts have gone through my head while trying to understand the silence. Don't get me wrong, I am definitely enjoying the peace and tranquility of the N.C. But still my mind is playing tricks on me as to the sudden change that has occurred several weeks ago.

 

Did she finally just plain give up on demonizing me? Did she finally realize she needs to adhere to the protective order that I have in place? Is she finally happy with herself and her choices that she made? Or, even better, is the other man that she left me for the new recipient of her dysfunctional behavior?

 

I suppose I will never have the answer to these questions. John, I know acceptance is the key and I think I am at a threshold of the healing process. The severe pain has weakened and become tolerable, yet the questions are still lingering in my mind.

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Scorn,

 

Those questions run through my mind but without the cycle of emotional reaction to more thoughts, they are just thoughts. The answers would be just thoughts also. Either one will not "make" me have a pleasant or unpleasant response for more than an instant. They will not change what is right now.

 

If I do feel a reaction, it is just an emotion that I am experiencing and that's all. It is not identified any longer as who I am. I do not need to protect my ego by announcing to the world who I am with an emotional reaction.

 

Whatever thoughts your X has about you, mine about me, or anyone about anybody, what does it matter? Does it change who we all really are?

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I have a walk away girlfriend. Never got to the marriage. # nice easy years together getting closer and more in love and she walk with very little explanation. THe most I got was " I don't know if this is right for me" after long talk and letters I got "someday you will find someone perfect" I don't want someone perfect, I want her. She lied about her interest in someone and has taken up with an man 10 years older than us that just started to leave his wife and 3 kids. My efforts to talk to her have now been met with anger, threats of restraining orders and " I will never take your calls or read your emails" All this from a woman I was very close to that appeared connected and in love with me. Does this seem like the walk away situation? I think it has allot to do with real fear of getting too close and letting down those walls. A bad childhood with very poor models of a good relationship may be a factor as well. I am now staying NC hoping the double rebounds fails soon and they both come to their senses...

 

Thoughts?

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I wonder if the behavour of people during times of great stress...like a seperation after a long partnership is similar to other people who suffer from mental illness.

 

We don't blame them for the irrational behavour.....we accept it as part of their emotional/mental condition.

 

If my ex went totally nuts.....and I knew it was not like she is when she is rational....I would write if off as crazy and mental....like a mental illness. I would hope to hold no malace to her just because her brain started whacking out.

 

I'm sure she didn't plan to be in this situation...we are just stupid humans after all....and we do the most stupid of mistakes.

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Though I am often rebuffed on this and other forums, I see see the Walkaway going through huge enotional distress. Not just fron the act of executing thier escape from the relationship. Depression causes divorce as often as depression is caused by it.

 

In many of these cases, there are many signs of clinical depression leading up to and involved in the walkaway's compulsion to get out of the relationship. Here is Anne Sheffield's (link removed) Unoffical list of symptoms:

 

self-absorbed, unaware or unconcerned about the needs of others

 

unresponsive, uncommunicative, aloof, changeable, unpredictable, illogical

 

manipulative

 

difficulty concentrating, remembering, and making decisions

 

pleasant and charming in public, the opposite at home

 

makes inexplicable and sudden references to separation and divorce

 

irritability

 

belittling and critical

 

increased use of alcohol and drugs

 

 

For those of you who have read my book, my X was all of these things when see went through her escape, to the max.

 

When someone puts up such an emotional wall, they do so, in their perseception, for self perservation purposes. this is recognized by the medical community as highly emotionally dysfunctional. The emotional pain that they have accumulated inside have persuaded them that they need to shut down. Any emotional stimulus, even attempts at rational discussion, can be viewed as a threat. If this is not emotional distress, I could not say what is.

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That sounds allot like a few of the things I just went through with EX GF.

 

I sent an article about the dangers of rebounds and dating the married or recently seperating

 

- Met with anger, denial

 

-I was very obviously traumatized by the event for months- trivialized by her, suggested getting a new pet.

 

-Has denied doing anything "wrong" to the mans current wife,"I am not doing anything"

 

-ex has basically lied to her girlfriends about what she is doing and burned several bridges with what were pretty close friends.

 

-Has compromised her ability to work in the same workplace as the new man.

 

-Is going through mid-life hormone changes and drinking too much!

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When someone puts up such an emotional wall, they do so, in their perseception, for self perservation purposes. this is recognized by the medical community as highly emotionally dysfunctional. The emotional pain that they have accumulated inside have persuaded them that they need to shut down. Any emotional stimulus, even attempts at rational discussion, can be viewed as a threat. If this is not emotional distress, I could not say what is.

 

Thanks John for sharing the symptoms. I can recognize several of them in my EX. Not all, but many. Yes, she was treated for mild depression in 2003/4.

 

The emotional walls, distress and the dysfunctional behaviours that are a fallout of the same continues to intrigue me. I am sure there has been some research around this. What happens eventually? Accepting that it exists is one thing, but to really understand what is a fallout of it is something of interest all together. The reason I ask this is because, we have a child. There will always be a connection. There will always have to be interaction. The question I struggle with is, do they ever see daylight again. My child is getting impacted because of this...

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benga -

 

There are walls and then there are WALLS. What John talks about is an emotional barrier in a very dysfunctional sense. It not only protects the person and their ego, but it provides a protection by rationalizing bad behavior, and they do not have to be accountable.

 

I have always used the wall analogy for the breakdowns between a couple in marriage. We can hurt and push our partner away without realizing the hurt we have created. When this happens, it is like laying bricks in a wall. For a long period it really has no effect because the wall being created can still be surmounted. Eventually though, if neither one recognizes what is happening and there is no change, the bricks continue to be put in place slowly over time. Communication degrades because there is this barrier built between husband and wife. Eventually communication breaks down and the last brick is in place and the wall is sealed, usually forever, it is a hard thing to break down.

 

When my ex and I were first together, I told him my theory of the bricks and the wall, each hurt, each tearing away of the respect of the other being a brick to put in place in the wall. For some time he seems to really believe this and the communication stayed open and honest, but he couldn't be that person, he couldn't sustain that behavior. The first vicious fight we had, he was verbally cruel, with no logic or reason for his actions. I was hurt and angry. I went to the hobby store and bought a small bag of bricks for a doll house and gave it to him. I told him he was laying bricks down hard and heavy. Rather than see the damage created through his rages, it only enraged him more. He stomped on the bag and ground the broken pieces and dust into the carpet for me to clean. One more brick laid. One more nick in the mirror of trust, someday it would shatter.

 

Everyone here has seen both barriers. One to protect an irrational mind, a barrier against reason and accountability. Another a slowly built boundary between two people, laid by bricks of emotional abuse and lose of trust.

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M.E.,

 

Well stated. I see the two barriers that you speak of as being one and the same. The one used to protect themselves is the same one thay can be used to push the partner away. By pushing the partner away, you are trying to keep them at arm's length and thereforee never close enough to do you harm. Anger is an excellant emotion in which to build the wall.

 

For the last couple of years before my X went though her escape, I was asking her why it seemed that she was pushing me away at times. She was rational enough to discuss it with me but it just seemed to be there from time to time. Well, push turned to shove.

 

Benga,

 

They may never see the light. Rationalizations, a tool that has gotten them this far, can be used to "help them through the night".

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John -

I read your earlier post and reread it. I logged into depression fallout and my eyes have opened a little more after I read the definition and stages of depression fallout. I knew my ex was depressed and/or prone to depression, but not the extent of it... This post has told the story of my last 2 years with my wife. This is exactly what happened and its telling my truncated. Incredible. If I had known earlier, I am sure some of the outcomes may have been different.

 

Thanks again John.

benga

 

 

Definition and Stages

 

Return to Understanding and Coping Topics

 

Are you suffering from DEPRESSION FALLOUT? If you have a family member or close friend with a depressive illness, the answer is yes.

 

Millions of Americans suffer from depression. Rightfully so, much attention has been paid to this national health problem. But what about the people who live with and love them? Where do they go for help? Most of them, yourself probably included, suffer from what I term "depression fallout, " shorthand for your feelings of confusion, self-doubt, demoralization, resentment, and, often, the desire to escape from the source of your problem.

 

* Depression fallout is our unbidden response to someone else's despair. The first of its five stages, which overlap and feed into each other, begins with our confusion when we initially encounter the other's illness, usually undiagnosed at the time. Why has someone you love become remote, as though the connection between you has been uncoupled? Why is he or she so distant and dissatisfied, so lethargic but demanding?

 

* Enter Stage Two: Self-doubt. Unaware of the real source of the problem, you seek it everywhere but in the illness itself. You think that your husband or wife is remote and critical because they're having an affair with somebody else, or that a lover has become selfish and unaffectionate because he or she no longer cares for you. You believe that a son or daughter is hostile and unmanageable because they've gotten involved with a group of wild kids, or that a mother or father is irritable and complaining because you have neglected them.

 

* Stage Three: Demoralization is central to depression fallout, arriving early and staying late. Its defining characteristic is loss of self-esteem. Demoralization is a lot like depression: the feeling that everything has gone wrong and there's nothing you can do about it because you are inept and worthless. Demoralization is underlaid with feelings of resentment toward the person with the illness who, despite your best efforts to help, acts as though everything is your fault.

 

* Stage Four: Resentment grows and often becomes anger. The relationship - indeed the entire family - is in disarray and your life is full of dissension and negativity. By now you have placed the blame squarely on your depressed person, not on their illness.

 

* Stage Five can be avoided, but unless you take positive steps to counter it your desire to escape the source of your unhappiness - by distancing yourself either psychologically or physically from your depressive or manic depressive - will become a negative constant.

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Benga,

 

Did you think that I was just making this stuff up as I went along? (Just joking.)

 

My X (and her entourage of women) still denies that she was ever depressed or emotionally unstable. My son's therapist, who has talked with my X on occasions, believes that she had what would be called in the old days, a nervous breakdown. They just do not call it that anymore. She was a textbook case of some form of clinical depression including the denial of it.

 

MY kids see her as being sick with a twisted view of what is the truth. If anything is sad, this is to me.

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"John -

I read your earlier post and reread it. I logged into depression fallout and my eyes have opened a little more after I read the definition and stages of depression fallout. I knew my ex was depressed and/or prone to depression, but not the extent of it... This post has told the story of my last 2 years with my wife. This is exactly what happened and its telling my truncated. Incredible. If I had known earlier, I am sure some of the outcomes may have been different.""

 

Benga,

 

I am not too sure about that. In a rational world yes. But once emotional distress to this extent comes into the picture, whatever you do may not bring about the desired results. Having the knowledge is helpful, but not an end unto itself.

 

The first step is being able to recognize their own distress. Catch-22 comes into play when the affliction itself causes them not to be able to admit this to themselves. Denial was the hardest thing for me to deal with. She would even deny things that I did and said as ever happening. She told me once, "You don't feel that way". I could not convince even though it was self evident. She needed it to be untrue to justify some of her actions.

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Thanks John.

 

I had always known her to be a nervous person, not being able to cope with stresses of any kind (very strange and weird reactions), along with some of the other symptoms of depression - which I didn't recognize. She was such a sweet, giving and a amiable person.

 

Back in 1998 she was diagnosed with a hypo thyroid condition and is on medication for life. In 2002-3 she was treated for mild depression, but didn't continue medication for long. We felt that we could manage this ourselves, I was entirely immersed into my wife and did my best to keep things happy. Red flag on my face as she always felt that her depression was my fault and that if I was more loving, spent more time with her, she would be able to relax and would feel better.

 

In 2004-05, we had our first child, she lost her father, her grandmother, we moved cities, I nearly lost my job and took a paycut... THings snowballed from there.. Symptoms of stage 1 lasted a while... Stages, 2, 3,4 & 5 nailed our marriage. Sure, her withdrawal made me act in funny manners as well and that is well defined here. Those are the only memories she carries of me unfortunately. It did impact my self esteem to a great extent - the constant complaints, nothing ever good enough etc etc... It did make me insecure as I couldn't understand what was wrong and what went wrong. I was naive to think that this was a phase which to shall pass.

 

When I mentioned that I wish I had known earlier so I could have done something about it, what I meant was that if I was able to "truly" understand depression, its gravity and impact at Stage 1, we could have done something about it.....

 

Eye opener.. Thanks John!!

 

John - I must also add here... During my earlier days of just coping with grief, there were folks like Superdave, Friscodj, Keenan etc who really provided me comfort. As time passed along and i was in search of "true meaning" and "acceptance", your coming along here has evolved me - Something I will always be indebted to you. I know and understand so much more today... Thanks John.

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