Why choose trust and not jealousy? This is why. PART 1

[tiredofvampires]

One thing that is becoming very crystallized for me here is that a distinction should be made between jealousy with loyalty.

 

There are unions and people that operate on low jealousy and low loyalty (see all theads about lack of possessiveness with lack of commitment).

 

There are unions and people that operate on high jealousy and low loyalty (see all threads about lots of possessiveness with yet lack of commitment, ick).

 

There are unions and people that operate on high jealousy and high loyalty (see threads about about lots of possessiveness with lots of commitment).

 

And then there are unions and people that operate on low jealousy and high loyalty. (see me. Lol. I mean...this is what I think I need to look for, because it's what I want to be. Not much possessiveness and high commitment.) This whole thread might be summed up in this, that I think this is the best of both worlds.

 

I also think that a very simple way of stating it is: if you have ever experienced that the more you can share yourself with someone, the more closeknit you are. So the more of your life story, and more of your outside life is tolerated and accepted and listened to, the closer you feel to someone in general, and if this person is your SO, then that just makes for a stronger, not weaker bond. As I see it, strength is a matter of not letting things get in between you and your love, and closeness is about how much you can share of yourself and still feel safe. I don't think a typically 'safe' arrangement is necessarily a closer one, or more respectful one.

[JadedStar]

One thing that is becoming very crystallized for me here is that a distinction should be made between jealousy with loyalty.

 

 

Actually it is all semantics then because to me, jealousy and respect are first cousins to jealousy and loyalty. For me, respect is a natural byproduct of loyalty and in love relationships vice versa.

[tiredofvampires]

Yes, but I don't see that jealousy has to be a byproduct of loyalty, is what I'm saying.

 

More of a concept thing, not semantic.

 

Respect being paramount, of course, in addition. (You can be jealous or even loyal to someone and not respect them.)

[Rabican]

jeal·ous

4. inclined to or troubled by suspicions or fears of rivalry, unfaithfulness, etc., as in love or aims: a jealous husband.

5. solicitous or vigilant in maintaining or guarding something: The American people are jealous of their freedom.

6. Bible. intolerant of unfaithfulness or rivalry: The Lord is a jealous God.

 

 

Ive got to disagree with this... maybe not the definition of it... but my feelings in this regard.

 

I will not feel jealous if I am cheated on. I will simply feel that I can do better and will do so and end the relationship with the cheater.

 

Example, lets say that you are not a jealous person, but you are cheated on. Is it jealousy that makes you walk away or is it self respect?

[Rabican]

than the "conservative" heavyweights weighing in on this thread

 

I am not a conservative heavyweight TOV.

 

Thats right! you better not start trying to take my handle. Ill wear the mantle of conservative heavyweight and then you two can stop arguing about it

 

Jeez just look what you started TOV this thread is growing a mind of its own.

[JadedStar]

Thats right! you better not start trying to take my handle. Ill wear the mantle of conservative heavyweight and then you two can stop arguing about it

 

Jeez just look what you started TOV this thread is growing a mind of its own.

 

LOL yes Rabican, you take that title because I can't wear it. LOL

 

And for the record we are not arguing. We are having a discussion.

[thetallguy]

TOV: "You can be jealous or even loyal to someone and not respect them."

 

I really don't think so TOV...

[tiredofvampires]

Well, there were times when I stuck by a friend out of loyalty even though I thought there were very deplorable things they were doing that I did not approve of nor respect...and there have been lots of cases where in politics and history, there was loyalty to a ruler even when those under him secretly thought he had gone terribly awry...loyalty can have many motivations. But it's a little far off left field, because that's a rather hollow loyalty. I am talking about loyalty WITH respect and love, and faitfulness.

[ProtestTheHero]

I agree with the premise of the first post. Jealousy indeed arises from insecurity and manifests itself in ways that are almost always unfair towards the jealous partner's SO. It is an internal battle that we in relationships must face, rather than bickering over the symptomatic day to day situations that arise from said jealousy. On all those lines -- yes I agree. However, I don't always think jealousy is unwarranted - even without concrete proof. Rarely will someone wake up and say "I will cheat on my SO today." It happens in a swirl of emotion or whatever. If you can sense that distance, well, jealousy happens.

 

I think the problem is getting over it. I get jealous. I know it's my fault, but no matter what I tell myself, I am engulfed in those feelings. A lot of it for me is because I was burned in the past.

 

I was an inexperienced virgin who was left for a varsity athlete, and my ex was just stupid enough to use my own house to cheat on me since he was a member of a group project we were doing for school. I figured any girl at any available moment would dump me for the bigger, better thing.

 

How can anyone who has dealt with an untrustworthy partner push aside that uneasy feeling and give aomeone else the benefit of the doubt when our pain is a testimony to what that sort of wishful thinking brings? You can let me "drown" once, but you better be damn sure I'll never get in the water again.

 

My jealousy, like others, derives from my insecurity. However, I let it vent out at the house -- never in front of her. Do I want her to go clubbing, talk with her exes, etc.? No. It pisses me off. But that's something I deal with daily, and it's a battle she has no idea I'm fighting.

 

It is for this reason that I am not an idealist. It's always aesthetically pleasing to read and identify the real problem, but to those of us lacking the mental capabilities to defeat it -- well, it is frustrating at best.

[Rabican]

That may be the crux of the issue. I don't think in terms of black and white, right and wrong, good and evil, and all the other "easy" either-or's. Life is filled with the in-between and shades of grey, and exceptions to the rules,

 

 

Ill just go out on a limb and say that calling right and wrong, good and evil etc. an 'easy' choice is the craziest thing Ive heard. I disagree, holding ones self to a set of values, adhering to principles, rules etc. is much harder than doing whatever one wants and rationalizing 'bad' behavior. That is where the easy comes in. IE when someone cheats because they are unhappy in a relationship. They easy thing to do is stay in an unhappy yet stable comfortable relationship and just find something on the side. The harder, right thing to do is usually to fix the problems at hand, or eliminate them altogether and find yourself a new marriage. Yet how many people justify their bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior.

 

Im just using cheating as an example, Im not saying you agree with my statement but I think you can see where Im going with it.

 

Its typical liberal/ progressive ideology that everything has shades of gray, and nothing is black and white. Which is quite nonsense in my opinion.

[Miss Firecracker]

The easy thing to do is stay in an unhappy yet stable comfortable relationship and just find something on the side. The harder, right thing to do is usually to fix the problems at hand, or eliminate them altogether and find yourself a new marriage.

 

But some people think divorce is a wrong, especially right-wing conservatives.

[Rabican]

But some people think divorce is a wrong, especially right-wing conservatives.

 

Im right wing conservative... and I have to say divorce shoudlnt be taken lightly but You can bet your a$$ Im gettin a divorce, or advising anyone to do the same if their spouse is abusive, cheats on them, etc. etc.

 

Theres a difference between a commitment, and ruining your life because of one.

[carrilynn2003]

istillluvu06... I completely understand! I have just made the biggest mistake of my life, walking away from the best thing that ever happened to me!! I still love him so much, and I could use some advice! I'd really enjoy talking to you.....

[JadedStar]

Im right wing conservative... and I have to say divorce shoudlnt be taken lightly but You can bet your a$$ Im gettin a divorce, or advising anyone to do the same if their spouse is abusive, cheats on them, etc. etc.

 

Theres a difference between a commitment, and ruining your life because of one.

 

Yup. Well said Rabican.

[tiredofvampires]

Im right wing conservative... and I have to say divorce shoudlnt be taken lightly but You can bet your a$$ Im gettin a divorce, or advising anyone to do the same if their spouse is abusive, cheats on them, etc. etc.

 

Theres a difference between a commitment, and ruining your life because of one.

 

Ha ha, Rabican -- you sure are right, this thread HAS taken on a life of its own! So much for my theory at the beginning that it wouldn't have much traffic! Lol...

 

And I'm seriously backed up and in need of catching up to previous posts, but just to address this one at the moment:

 

As soon as you mentioned taking the title of "heavyweight conservative" and seeing things in black and white, and right and wrong, I suspected you were a politcal right-wing conservative as well. "Either you are for us or against us," "Either you are for the troops or against them" -- those statements not only being black and white themselves, but equating with eachother. Without getting into a waaaaay off-topic political debate, the flaw exemplified in this thinking is that you can be FOR the troops but AGAINST what they are doing (or being asked to do, which is not being "against THEM" which has been misconstrued by global, simplistic thinking.) As you can see by this simple analogy, it's really over-simplifying things to just say "either or." This is what I mean by shades of grey, and what conservatives hate about liberal thinking: it takes into account the fine print, the "buts" the exceptions, the case-by-case scenarios, the "maybes" and what-ifs.

 

Our judicial system is based on shades of grey, by the way. You can kill someone and it can be called different things. If you said "killing is wrong" then everyone who killed someone should be equally punished. What if it was manslaughter? Self defense? 3rd, 2nd, 1st degree? So there are many situations in life where there are extenuating circumstances and to have accross-the-board policies is quite a gross take on life.

 

Back to the subject at hand, if someone is abusive or cheats, lies, or dishonors the relationship and jeapardizes it, there are several options and for me, again, the particulars of the case must be considered. If your spouse cheats but in fact was lonely because you never show them affection, are verbally caustic all the time and demeaning, and behave in emotionally distant ways, it certain took two to make that infidelilty happen, and the cheater is not the only one to blame, even though that was not a good answer to the problem. But what needs to happen there is to examine the internal flaws within the marriage first, to see if it can be repaired. Many couples DO recover from infidelity. It is very hard, but it happens. It is part of commitment for many couples who consider within their vows fixing what jeopardized them. If you look up statistics, you will find that over half the relationships that are decades long (long term), there is some type of strain to the fidelity at SOME POINT. Do you just slam the book down and say "That's it, we're done" and throw away 30 years, or do you try to fix it? Do you ask the hard questions, what brought us to this juncture and try to empathize with what was going on for your partner, or do you just want to live in your own bubble of thoughts and feelings? To me, this is a very closed (and in ways, self-absorbed) way to live. There are more realities going on simultaneously that JUST YOUR OWN.

 

To think YOUR reality is THE reality is to truly have a sense of omnipotence that is incongrous with life. So it stands to reason that if you love someone and have spent a life building with them and growing together, that their reality and their point of view, what is going on for them should matter. Empathy with the other side is a rare trait, but it is the ticket to a much closer relationship than just comfortable security "assured". Which is also a delusion. You are never guaranteed security of any kind, or assurance. You can go looking for something that seems better than what you have, and sometimes that is entirely justified -- but you will always be faced with uncertainty even with a new person. You want a person that is a bit like a breathing, moving piece of stone that is engraved with certain markings that will never change. That's not the way life plays out. So you best be ready to roll up your sleeves and examine what went wrong or go with new developments as they arise and really look to see what's going on, not just on the face of things, but underneath. A lot of times, you (and I mean this as "we", even in a political sense) are part of the problem we abhor, but it is so easy to externalize the blame.

 

You would not trash your car if it started making bad noises, would you? You'd try to find out the source of that and fix it. It might be even better than when you started by the time you fix it.

[tiredofvampires]

BTW, I am all for leaving dangerous and proven unsalvageable situations, and have counselled many women here to leave abusive relationships. I, myself, should have left mine earlier.

 

That's off-topic, but was worth putting in as a footnote about my stance.

[Miss Firecracker]

Im right wing conservative... and I have to say divorce shoudlnt be taken lightly but You can bet your a$$ Im gettin a divorce, or advising anyone to do the same if their spouse is abusive, cheats on them, etc. etc.

 

Theres a difference between a commitment, and ruining your life because of one.

 

Just pointing out that sometimes everything isn't in black and white. I think you agree. There are some times when we have to make a line, and sometimes we end up seeing that what we used to believe was wrong can end up being the only reasonable choice...right for us.

 

Oh, and a lot of people who are Republicans in their younger years change to Democrats when they are older, and vice-versa.

[tiredofvampires]

That's true, Miss Firecracker. I just think if you go with hard a rigid, you are going to come accross things that break you. The ancient Chinese classic on how to rule wisely, the Tao Te Ching, states that only the flexible people in life, flexible like bamboo that can bend, or are able to move around and with situations and sometimes take on a different position based on the circumstances (like ice, water, vapor, depending) are able to meet the challenges of life.

[Miss Firecracker]

You sure got that right!

[dietrying]

Thank you for your OP, tiredofvampires.

 

It is very helpful to me since I have often felt like a psycho in the past, obsessing over things while knowing I am being ridiculous.

 

I also feel better about staying close with my male friends should I happen to enter a relationship, and that's something that is very important to me since I value friendship highly and have very few female friends.

 

Using your terminology, I would probably be high jealousy and high loyalty. I'm working towards low jealousy and high loyalty and finding a partner who is the same, so your posts help me....thanks.

[Batya33]

I've always stayed in touch with platonic male friends, but if it's obvious that the male friend is attracted to me, then I probably would limit contact with him if I was in an exclusive relationship and would understand an SO's discomfort (without the need to psychoanalyze it) with my staying in close touch with such a person and spending one on one time in a romantic setting.

[tiredofvampires]

dietrying,

 

Thanks for your comments and contribution to this thread! It really is born out of my own struggle with feelings of inadequacy at times that are as upsetting as anyone else's (and seeing that mirrored much more exaggeratedly in my ex bf), but having a streak in me that feels this path involves my accepting an inferior emotional and spiritual state for myself. Inferior because it closes me and my partner off to a greater embrace of life and people in it, and the allowance that the Universe or "God" or however you wish to call it really decides what is going to happen between two people, and you cannot demand or enforce anything about that. The job between the two people is to communicate with transparent honesty to one another, and for each person to pick someone they feel to be loyal. I value loyalty as one of my top values, and because I have a very high standard for myself in this regard, I want someone else who has this too. This means that they can choose to make decisions without my fears and interventions and insecurities dictating them like a puppet, (and vice versa), and at the end of the day, they are still going to make choices of conscience. If they have troubling emotions, we can deal with those as they arise, as we have already established that we do not shove things under the rug. I want to live with the fruitfulness of the day to day love that we share without feeling anything external takes away from that.

 

Every day, I showered my bf with kisses on the face, jubilant shrieks when he came in the door, telling him he was "the man" in bed...and he could see when he said deeply hurtful things to me, some out of the spite that was generated by his insecurities and selfish pride, that I would crumple up and sob with all my heart, as though my world was destroyed. How can someone see these signs and think that if I go to a movie with a male friend when my bf is busy that night, that this is anything more than a movie, and a chance to enjoy someone else's company? If it was a gf, it would be no problem, but what if I, like you, have more male friends that fill these roles?

 

I want this freedom and I want to be considered trustworthy, as a varied social animal. So in this sense, I want an agreement and an understanding for "selfish purposes." But I as I said have my own cross to bear with this, since I expect myself to meet my own bar of tolerance (I did a lot of crying over feeling "like a nobody" compared to one of my ex's ex's, who had a lot of stuff about her I envied, including a long relationship and professional alliance with him that he idolized. They were both rock 'n' roll musicians, [she being very cute and star-like] and he actually showed me an e-mail she wrote him saying, "Feel free next time [on stage] to give me a body slam!" and that just felt like white lightening through my heart!). Believe me, I've done my time! So if some woman feels threatening to me and my bf lays it all out on the table, it's up to me to put my feelings into perspective and let him enjoy the same flexibility that I've wanted, too. I do think this is actually spiritual work, which is why I mentioned the Dalai Lama's comments on it in the beginning. I do not feel that acting on jealousy or choosing it as an "insurance policy" is the healthiest way to live, IMO. Lots of people would disagree, but then again, if both people want to live like that, then it is a viable lifestyle for THEM. I believe it's healthy to FEEL it from time to time, and as I said, even express it to our partners because we are intimate enough to do so, and to seek their reassurance emotionally when we are feeling a litte weak. But to make rules that confine and restrict our movements is another matter. This of course presupposes a loyal and honest and loving and respectful relationship to begin with. So the threads here where someone is defiled by infidelity and they end up having to snoop on phones and emails (something my bf was doing at the end with no just cause), to me that is a relationship already up in flames. Everything it was supposed to be about -- respect, love, trust, honor, lack of secrecy, honesty -- is already gone, it's already too late at least in the majority of cases.

 

My bf was also high jealousy and high loyalty, and I stayed with him partly because I think that, deep in his heart, based on things he said at times (such as asking for me to be patient with him, and that "I was just farther along"), if he were to read this OP, he might agree at least intellectually. But every time something came up where I was turned into a defendant as opposed to a girlfriend, he reverted back to self-righteous indignation and saying he deserved better, saying other girls in the past had given him a lot more "protection" than me. (Yes, and they were also, by accounts, door mats who would do anything for him and his ego, so doesn't that say something?) I felt that my demonstrations of love just weren't enough; I had to make painful sacrifices of my independent life that would have not been true to myself as well. Where was his "protecting" me in that sense? Love is a two-way street, and people always allow jealousy to be the directing policeman calling the shots. I, for one, want to travel a different street.

 

It is great of you to be at your age already looking to move towards low jealousy and high loyalty instead -- I wish my bf had gotten into that mode while we were together!!! I think he would have been actually very happy with his newfound life that way, too, over time. It just wasn't as important to him as to me, because he does not have opposite-sex friends as much as I do and furthermore just doesn't confide in friends the way I need to and seek out, of both genders (he is an extremely private person). So I think a part of him just didn't see how it should be that important of a sacrifice. Yes, you have to look for a partner who is that combination, low jealousy, high loyalty, who has those same values. Someone I think who has also a similar need for friendships with a variety of people, otherwise they will not understand you. That insures a level of security as well as honoring your male friendships without having to go through the 3rd degree process.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of people are scarred from seeing the disloyalties of others, either in their lives or with someone else, and that gets projected onto YOU and YOUR MO. It is entirely erroneous. You are a NEW SLATE. Just because Bob's girl cheated on him when he gave her the right to see male friends, or hang out with exes that are no longer anything more than "friends", does not mean you are Bob's girl!!! But that is how you are judged, since it does happen. I don't think it should be my responsibility to pay for the sins of Bob's last girl, even if my bf is Bob. That is not about being selfish, that is about asking for fairness and being seen and appreciated for who I am in this relationship without rose (or rather mud) tinted glasses.

 

Like you, my friendships are sacred to me. Love relationships cannot be counted on as much as friends who stand by you (and I include exes here who have transformed into the role of such friends.) So if a man forces me to choose between him and someone I think has my back and I have theirs, someone who enriches my life and would be there if/when I am single again as a moral support, as much as I love him to pieces and want him to be my lifelong partner, he has put me in an impossible situation. One I shouldn't have to make. That is where his love for me and what's best for me ends. I would never do that to him. Likely, unless we can work through that, that's where our future ends.

 

Kudos to you for your priorities!

[tiredofvampires]

As for friends who have feelings of attraction to me (or me to them!), if I was in an exclusive relationship, yes, I would limit those contacts and friendships to what I felt would not detract from the integrity of my commitment to my SO. I usually have eyes only for my SO when I'm in a relationship, but let's face it, sometimes we do encounter people who can make good friends but we find attractive. As long as that's benign and self-limiting, I don't think it's a cause for alarm. I had to cut ties completely with someone I'd had a MASSIVE infatuation with before meeting my bf, someone I wanted very much to be involved with, who rebuffed me but returned to my life after I was already seeing my bf. I felt in control of my separating out the attraction that was there with the friendship I felt we could enjoy, but when he started to make physical moves on me, I stopped him and told him this couldn't work unless we were JUST friends. He admitted he had an "agenda." I was very disappointed, because I'd hoped we could shift our attention to common interests, not hooking up, and this seemed his only motivation. So I stopped contact with him.

 

And the same would go for a less dicey situation, where I had a male friend who had some attraction to me but was able to sublimate that to respect my relationship with my SO. As long as he is not trying to sabotage my relationship, and his attraction doesn't factor into our conversations, again I think this is acceptable. It's all about RESPECT. If the focus is me having to turn down advances, beating someone off with a stick or fighting conflicting feelings, no, that is not the kind of friendship I think would be beneficial.

 

As for romantic settings, that again is a lot about context. In my post above, I mentioned going out to a movie. Well, that can be romantic or not at all romantic. A beach at sunset? I've gone with women friends to enjoy sunset on the beach, though many people consider that the quinetessential romantic setting. It depends who you are with and what you are doing, more than the place. However, I can't imagine myself booking tickets for a weekend get-away to the Bahamas with a king sized bed in the plushest couple suite, as someone suggested (was it you, Rabican? I'm expanding on it anyway) just to get away for a vacation with a platonic male friend. Nor can I see myself going with a male friend even out to an elegant fine dining restaurant with dim lights and candlelight, either. I have never done something like that and it certainly would feel weird, to say the least, to do so!