Why choose trust and not jealousy? This is why. PART 1

[Rabican]

Well Ill have to say that was quite a lot of blather to get to the point of the simply jealousy vs trust question.

 

Question for ya. Let say your spouse wants to spend a weekend getaway in the bahamas with an ex without you. Would you call that jealousy when you say "no, that is not acceptable behavior"

 

I would not. I would call that common sense. Not jealousy.

 

Would you call it trust to say "sure honey go ahead" ?

 

I think the whole jealousy / trust debate comes down to one thing. BALANCE.

 

The see-saw of emotions and situations where a couple determines whats within bounds and whats not. If your husband doesnt let you go to the grocery store because you might run into a cute guy there... thats jealous, fear, possesiveness.

If your husband doesnt want you hanging out alone with an old Bed-Buddy at 3:00 am at his house... thats just normal thats not jealous in my opinion.

 

So what it all comes down to is finding that person with whos values come closest to your own. Where you are both in bounds and both out of bounds at the same time.

[Rabican]

Thanks for the reply. He actually has already told her all about me and how well our relationship is going when she asked how he had been doing during their initial online conversation.

What I've learned about jealousy is that its important to protect yourselves from bastards... but its also important to be able to distinguish between bastards and good guys

 

I think the best thing you can do is go with your boyfriend to this lunch, meet this girl and try to develope a friendship with her. After all, if hes going to forgive and forget and remain friends with her, the path of least resistance is probably to get yourself situated with her as a friend if you can. As an added bonus she knows you are there she cant put the moves on your man, AND you can give her a womans point of view on helping her with HER relationship.

[Rabican]

The way I look at it is, the only "warranted" jealousy is when there is something concrete that has been established as a sabotaging intent on any party's end. And even then, I feel that knowing the heart of your SO is key in determining what you DO with that jealousy. .

 

Knowing the heart of your SO is just fine and dandy in fairy tale land. That sounds like some quite lovely Liberal thinking to me however in real life thats not always the case.

 

Just ask yourself how many times on here, in real life, on tv, in the papers you see someone saying "oh we never thought he would do that" anything from cheating, to lying, stealing, rape murder etc etc. Knowing the heart of your SO is nothing more than your best educated GUESS based on what you know of them. And as we both know, nobody would ever lie... right?

 

Concrete, or trusting your gut? Me... Ill go with trusting my gut every time. Even if that means making a call when I dont have something 'concrete'.

 

Just throwing that out there.

[tiredofvampires]

Well Ill have to say that was quite a lot of blather to get to the point of the simply jealousy vs trust question.

 

What exactly is the "blather" you are referring to?

[tiredofvampires]

I think the best thing you can do is go with your boyfriend to this lunch, meet this girl and try to develope a friendship with her. After all, if hes going to forgive and forget and remain friends with her, the path of least resistance is probably to get yourself situated with her as a friend if you can. As an added bonus she knows you are there she cant put the moves on your man, AND you can give her a womans point of view on helping her with HER relationship.

 

If you had a buddy (just hang with me for the purposes of this example) that you hadn't seen in 20 years and lost touch with, who was always a good pal on the track team that you specially remember, and got the chance to get together to shoot the you-know-what to see how eachother have been all these years, would your VERY FIRST MEETING be bringing your fiance along?

 

Maybe so.

 

I think not. You'd catch him up and tell him all about her, but meeting her would actually come later. That's called "etiquette."

 

At any rate, I would not bring me SO along at the first meeting because "something fishy" is going on, I wouldn't do it because it is just not appropriate to bring a total, complete stranger who has no reference to anything you will be talking about, making them feel awkwardly like a 3rd wheel, into the picture. I would do it at subsequent visits, as we got reaquainted, but not together at the FIRST meeting. At any rate, certainly you know that even if the poster and the ex get to be friends, it's not possible that everything her bf shares with his ex as friends will be shared with HER. That's not how friendship works.

 

The whole "putting moves on your man" is just so presumptuous. I have said again and again in these threads that I am a walking, breathing, LIVING case in point for you to see that women can very well want to get to know an ex as a friend on a new slate after years, and not have to be warded against. I don't need someone else to show their territory -- as you stated about the one ex that you have no problem with since he is respectful -- WELL, THAT'S ALL OF MY EXES!!!!!! The ones that are taken are taken, the ones that I no longer wish to be sexual with we are platonic and they respect my relationships, and the ones that still have some attraction to me still keep themselves respectful and are living their own love lives.

 

The fact that you think a heart-to-heart between two friends could take place with a spouse sitting in the middle as a chaperone, shows that you really do not have a working concept of dialogue that is deep and meaningful between friends. You have friends and buddies I am sure, but your concept of deep conversation is very limited I see. Because there are things these two will want to discuss that will never feel right to discuss with that 3rd wheel, who everyone knows is just there as a prop. Maybe some day that friendship could stand on its own, that would be nice, but it would be secondary to the original friendship, which has a right to privacy. I would never go beyond meaningless chit-chat with a friend, any friend of the opposite sex, if his wife came along to monitor the situation and "pretend" to be a friend. If she was genuinely caring, okay, but that is not the motive you have in mind. You are not coming from a place of caring, just self-interest. And there is no guarantee that they (the two women) will able to hit it off, and have personalities that are really "clicking". You can't guarantee their friendship and it's not your partner's responsibility to like all your friends, so you really can't control that factor.

[Batya33]

In this case one of the "friends" had feelings for the ex and was in a particularly vulnerable state over her own relationship. I don't think a third wheel is the issue - I think it would be playing with fire to have the lunch take place at all. A phone call perhaps but given the ex's feelings why have a situation where they're together in person - even if nothing happens, it's unpleasant, imbalanced and causing discomfort to the SO.

 

I agree with Rabican that it's all a matter of balance and finding someone with compatible values.

 

I have to say, Tiredvampires, even if you don't mean it to, your post gives the impression that somehow you believe you are better at balancing between trust and jealousy and that you are somehow more self-aware (more highly evolved? deeper?). You use a lot of words including "shouting" in allcaps to make what I believe is the basic, simple point Rabican made.

 

I wouldn't know whether your ex was justified in not trusting your friendships with other men but in my experience, when a romantic relationship is based solely on typing and talking as yours was before you met him, it is much harder to have perspective about people the SO has never met particularly where the two people in the relationship are trying to have a romantic relationship based only on typing and talking.

 

To me, it's normal and reasonable in that case for the imagination to run wild because in my humble opinion the romantic relationship at that point is based mostly on fantasy which doesn't give a solid basis from which to trust each other's real life relationships with members of the opposite sex (IMHO). And yes I believe it's fine for me to have an opinion on whether a relationship is "real" - for example if you claimed to be married or committed to a married man I would have the opinion that it wasn't a real commitment. No chutzpah, just my opinion.

[istillluvu06]

Thank you so much tiredofvampires!! I did receive your reply on my other thread and printed it out at work so I could fully read it. I appreciate your time and effort to respond and yes I think it's odd we have very similar situations by age and such. I'm 41 he's 38. The bottom line of jealousy I've come to believe is that we aren't born jealous. Somehow along the way in our lives something taught us to be this way. Our childhood, past realtionships etc. Where does our lack of self esteem come from?? These are the questions I have had to ask myself. But the hardest part is to STOP learned behaviors, especially when you're like my age. It's made me older than I am. More worry,Less enjoyment, just a huge burden to carry around.

 

I would be happy to PM you and talk maybe we can help eachother out and I want you to know how much your insight is appreciated, prob not by just me but lots of people in similar situations. Being a jealous person is kinda about being needy, and not many people want to admit they need anybody to survive. It's crazy. But it's also not something you can just "get over" It takes time and you have to be completley honest with yourself. A hard thing to do Talk again soon and thanks!!

[Batya33]

Thanks for sharing. Let's agree to disagree on tones and impressions. Since you choose to use many words and to use several psychological/philosophical terms in your posts, the combination of the wordiness plus those terms makes it hard to see the point of your posts - and to me the points are basic and simple, as Rabican expressed and as others have expressed many times on this forum when it comes to trust and jealousy. Thanks for clarifying that you are not trying to make these points seem more important or deep simply by expressing them in many words.

 

Thanks again for clarifying that you are just sharing your opinions here. I probably will refrain from commenting since, given your style it makes it too easy to misunderstand the point.

[tiredofvampires]

I have to say, Tiredvampires, even if you don't mean it to, your post gives the impression that somehow you believe you are better at balancing between trust and jealousy and that you are somehow more self-aware (more highly evolved? deeper?). You use a lot of words including "shouting" in allcaps to make what I believe is the basic, simple point Rabican made.

 

Batya,

 

I started out this thread and have continued along the way all this while stating that these are my opinions, I struggle with emotions like others do, and I did examine the question of subjective "truth" and "universal" truth a few posts back. I started this thread for personal insight and growth along my healing trajectory, and hope that others can share in the discussion, which I think raises the question about spiritually, as individuals and society, is there something about jealousy that is detrimental. And is there a more "evolved" or inspired way to be to aspire to. I believe there is, but I think I've presented a balanced view, of living life as I see it along these lines and also my own fallibility. I cannot have the discussion about such "lofty" ideas though, without presenting them. And if I present them as my evolving belief system, or at least the one that I feel inspired towards, I have no other way of presenting it except as I have. If you take away from that that I am in some way acting superior to others, I am sorry this is the case as you see it.

 

I present my ideas passionately on this board just as everyone else does when a subject is near and dear to their experience and heart, so I feel I'm in good company.

 

I also must admit that sometimes in general I notice that people in society don't question some of their basic modus operandi and assumptions. So I've mentioned that as well. I think it's a valid point to make, and it doesn't make me immodest or high-and-mighty to make this observation. Also, I feel in pretty good company on this one as well, since a lot of people are here to question or deplore the status quo or the "norms" of this society, and to critique the larger culture, socially, sexually, and psychologically. And to discuss how they feel personally hurt or rejected by such phenomena, or out-of-sync. So...it's me and everyone else coming here. They have their issues, I have mine.

 

I openly welcome debate and disagreement, and have respect for those people who articulate other points of view. Rabican is ahead of me in ways, since he is engaged, and I have just lost the love of my life. So if his system is working for him, great. And I welcome his explanations about the opposing point of view, to help me understand my ex and his jealousies and insecurities, and to try to come to terms with what beliefs I hold true. So this is of value for me and it's been a civil conversation so far.

 

Your posts to me are always tinged with criticism that is more personal, however. If it is not about the "what" (content) of my ideas/posts, it is about the how I post, my style, and so forth. In another thread, you took me to task for the way I write paragraphs, and when I asked you how I could improve them, you declined to reply. Now it's this buisiness about "allcaps". I do not write in allcaps, except in a sentence here or there, or a word here or there for emphasis. I do so mostly because it takes less time and work than using the bold and italics functions, so I am conserving energy (which is important for me since I write so much). The caps are probably about .1% of the copious posting I do. To make a liberal estimate, by word count. I do use bold and italics quite often, as well. But please -- let's spare eachother the degeneration of more important topics into such trifling matters.

 

I think it's entirely salient to talk about subjectivity vs. objectivity, opinion vs. fact, and so forth. That is a legitimate debate. But personally-directed criticisms about the way I write I think are not really in the interests of this discussion. I will refrain from that type of commentary with you and hope you will give me the same courtesy. Thank you.

[Batya33]

Thanks again for sharing. Once I again I respectfully disagree with your characterizations about my posts to you. As I mentioned, since I have difficulty reading your style of writing, I picked out the parts that commented on my posts and did not try to decipher the rest.

 

All the best to you.

[dreamer0202]

TiredofVampires,

 

Thanks for the reply. According to my boyfriend, his lunch with his ex-girlfriend went well. She's having a tough time in her relationship right now, and she's not sure what to do about it. My boyfriend tried to offer advice and help out as much as he could. They caught eachother up on how their families were doing, he told her more good things about my relationship with him. That night I went over to his house and he was very open with me about it. When I asked what his future intentions were with her, he said that he was really happy that he went because he feels good about being a good friend and forgiving her. He intends to keep in contact with her, and hopes she can mend her relationship with her boyfriend. He doesn't have future plans to meet up with her, so I suppose we'll wait to see what the future holds. Whatever happens, he wants to make sure I am in the loop and that I don't feel like he is doing anything behind my back. He is happy that I've made a decision to let go and trust him, and he apparently has made it his mission to be the man that proves to me that some people are trustworthy. He has reassured me a million times that no relationship with her would compare at all with our relationship, and that he would be a total idiot to leave what we have.

I have to say this - I am proud of him. There are people in my past that have wronged me and I'm not sure that a sudden contact and apology from them would be enough for me to forgive them. But I hope that I would, because I've wronged other people in my life and I would feel better to know that they forgave me for the way that I acted. I want to know, when I'm older and reviewing my life, that I've put effort and care into every relationship I've had. Maybe that's not the way everyone wants to live their life, but if its my goal, i certainly can't object to my boyfriend having the same.

All in all, I am confident that as long as we communicate we'll be fine. I appreciate everyone's help and thoughts on this!

[tiredofvampires]

Thanks again for sharing. Once I again I respectfully disagree with your characterizations about my posts to you. As I mentioned, since I have difficulty reading your style of writing, I picked out the parts that commented on my posts and did not try to decipher the rest.

 

All the best to you.

 

Fair enough. BTW, for some reason I had two versions of the same post up, so I don't know how that happened, but sorry for the redundancy.

[Rabican]

What exactly is the "blather" you are referring to?

 

Sorry it was just a LONG post... and I was quite tired when I read it. I think it was just a bit much on the... depth of what you were saying. Good post though.

[HellFrost666]

I have to say, Tiredvampires, even if you don't mean it to, your post gives the impression that somehow you believe you are better at balancing between trust and jealousy and that you are somehow more self-aware (more highly evolved? deeper?). You use a lot of words including "shouting" in allcaps to make what I believe is the basic, simple point Rabican made.

 

 

Sorry to jump straight into the pit here... but Batya, what is the problem with somone giving themself some credit? Balancing trust and Jealousy is a hard thing to do. I, for one, think it takes s strong minded person to master that skill. So, way to go TOV.

 

 

[tiredofvampires]

I certainly haven't mastered anything, that's for sure, but I'd like to think that I have a strong enough mind to deal head-on with my emotions as they arise, when they are based on insecurities and irrational fears rather than reality, even if I fumble along in doing so. I just think the end result might be worth striving for, mutually -- and thank you for lettin' me have a little credit for at least trying, HF.

 

Brave boy.

 

 

 

 

[tiredofvampires]

Thanks for the clarification, Rabican. If you look up the definition of "blather" it is quite an unflattering word.

 

I tried to make clear in bold at the head of my post (OP), that I was doing a bit of philosophical/personal exploration on a topic, so it would be a little more expansive than just some pat opinion on someone's situation or a terse generalization. I think there is a place on this board for long posts and short posts, specific questions and broader ones.

 

I mean gosh...doesn't anyone want to stop and think for a while anymore? Or are we so ADHD, it's just too much to hope for? Anyway, the beauty of this system is that you can pick and choose which ones are your style and rhythm, take what you need here and leave the rest.

 

Isn't it good to have so many different types to make a world?

[Batya33]

Sorry to jump straight into the pit here... but Batya, what is the problem with somone giving themself some credit? Balancing trust and Jealousy is a hard thing to do. I, for one, think it takes s strong minded person to master that skill. So, way to go TOV.

 

 

 

Nothing at all - I just found (although again her writing style was a difficult one for me to decipher so I probably misinterpreted quite a bit) that she was trying to impose her personal views on others and their relationships.

[Batya33]

Since you are commenting on your style then I hope it's ok for me to comment. Sometimes I find that the sort of expansiveness you refer to (which I call wordiness) masks any depth or sometimes is used to replace depth (not saying you do but I have seen that as an approach many times - many words and psychobabble words to mask the fact that it is a simple concept or to mask that the writer simply wants everyone to see that they know "big words" - again, not using your posts as examples!).

 

To me a few well chosen words often convey far more depth than wordiness. There is beauty and depth in simplicity and conciseness, IMHO. Nothing to do with an inability to focus or insufficient time to read a long post. This is just me and as I said above - with all due respect - I find your style hard to decipher and thereforeeee have chosen not to respond in the future.

 

I too can get very wordy - the difference is my goal is to cut down on words (both here and in the writing I do in life) so that I can convey more depth when that is the goal.

 

I understand that you mean your posts to be more like stream of consciousness journaling - I hope I got that part right - and of course that is a style that doesn't focus on the reader as much as the writer's goal to get the stream out on paper or a computer.

[JadedStar]

Knowing the heart of your SO is just fine and dandy in fairy tale land. That sounds like some quite lovely Liberal thinking to me however in real life thats not always the case.

 

Just ask yourself how many times on here, in real life, on tv, in the papers you see someone saying "oh we never thought he would do that" anything from cheating, to lying, stealing, rape murder etc etc. Knowing the heart of your SO is nothing more than your best educated GUESS based on what you know of them. And as we both know, nobody would ever lie... right?

 

Concrete, or trusting your gut? Me... Ill go with trusting my gut every time. Even if that means making a call when I dont have something 'concrete'.

 

Just throwing that out there.

 

BRAVO!

 

I live in a world of reality and there is a fine line between trust and good old fashioined "putting oneself in potential harms way". For a person to say it does not feel appropriate for a person to go to lunch with an ex who might still be harboring feelings is NOT IMHO indicative of unwarranted jealousy. I feel that with trust we must also have respect from our partner, and if we are respected certain things won't even be asked of us.

 

Your posts Rabican define very closely my definitions of trust and jealousy.

 

I think that this thread should be more clearly defined that these are definitions and trust and jealousy for the extremely liberal. A more conservative person could never, and should not have to, concede to some of these rules. Being more conservative is not a character flaw and if something that many people wouild find inappropriate is communicated as such to one's partner, this does not mean that the person communicating is flawed or out of line in any shape or form.

[HellFrost666]

Nothing at all - I just found (although again her writing style was a difficult one for me to decipher so I probably misinterpreted quite a bit) that she was trying to impose her personal views on others and their relationships.

 

Lol... like that's something none of us are guilty of? And this is her thread, after all.

[Batya33]

Lol... like that's something none of us are guilty of? And this is her thread, after all.

 

Nothing wrong with that either just took issue with her apparent claim that she was not attempting to do that and took issue with what I thought was her claim that somehow she had reached more depth on the subject and that others should follow what she had learned.

 

But that is old ground -I now realize that the real issue is that I was not equipped to decipher her posts because of the writing style (and certainly she is entitled to use any style she cares to!), as I mentioned in subsequent posts. Having come to that understanding, I apologize for taking any issue with them.

[JadedStar]

I think this would be a good thread for the more liberal minded. There is nothing wrong with people who are more liberal and who can tolerate more but there is nothing wrong with those who would put their footdown and say i feel disrespected if you go out alone with an ex who has declared she wishes the two of you could get back together.

 

The real problem i have with this thread is it could make a more conservative person feel very guilty for expressing concern over some issues that most people WOULD take issue with. But my opinion is just that, an opinion.

 

Everyone has a different capacity for tolerance that is why the real key is to find people who share our core values. Trying to match two people with different core values is often akin to putting a square peg into a round hole. It doesn't work well.

 

My philosophy on this and TOV's is so vastly different that this concept could never work for me, but that does not make me wrong, or her wrong.

 

I think Batya's reasoning for thinking that instead of an opinion this was more established truths is because of the thread title "why choose trust and not jealousy - THIS IS WHY".

[tiredofvampires]

Well, it seems you are talking about my posts, otherwise, this wouldn't really come up. But thank goodness you are not. (?)

 

At any rate, I find it a little ironic that you are telling me that my thread takes a superior tone. And here you are telling me about your preferable way of writing.

 

I won't say more on this, since this thread is not about Expository Writing and the art of editing. It is about the emotions trust and jealousy, and looking deeply into their causes. As it is a subject worth expounding on. Some subjects do lend themselves to more content. I am going to leave it there.

 

Other than to agree with you that simplicity is great, I love it, too. Which is why I write Haiku.

 

The past, like curled leaves

hallows the foot of the tree,

But the tree grows on.

 

Your touch on my face

defies the known, as secret

as the kiss of God.

 

My breast opens wide,

all that came before, kindled --

thatch on fire for you.

[Batya33]

As I mentioned I was simply replying to your post commenting on your style and your speculation that it is an "ADD" problem that we as readers might have with respect to the length of your posts. Just like I had trouble deciphering your writing style (and disagree -- respectfully -- that looking deeply into the causes of trust and jealousy requires a lengthy exposition) apparently my style poses problems for you too as somehow you read into my post that I was advocating one style over another in general. I was not - that would be silly since we are all entitled to write as we wish (as long as it's ok with Enotalone) and for those (like me) who have trouble understanding your style in particular, that's my loss I suppose. Hope that clears things up and hope that clarifies why I will no longer respond to your longer posts (or to any, if that is what you wish).

 

Thanks for sharing the Haiku.

[tiredofvampires]

You may reply to whatever you wish, Batya. That is my feeling at the present time, though I would prefer you stick to the topic itself and not focus on my writing style, as I have registered your not particularly enjoying it, and now that that is on record, hopefully that will now drop as a subject, leaving just the topics themselves to prevail. And if the longer posts pose difficulties for you, then it is entirely a reasonable choice to pass on them.