Why choose trust and not jealousy? This is why. PART 1

[Batya33]

Sure thing - I had wished to, but you brought it up again. Done.

[Rabican]

Thanks for the clarification, Rabican. If you look up the definition of "blather" it is quite an unflattering word.

 

I tried to make clear in bold at the head of my post (OP), that I was doing a bit of philosophical/personal

 

No problem. I didnt mean to take a shot at you... obviously we tend to disagree on this one the whole trust vs boundaries... which you tend to call jealousy.... but I wasnt trying to be mean.

 

Im just very much a black and white, right and wrong, simple and to the point kind of guy... so that was a LOT of philosophy for my taste.

[Rabican]

If I had a friend of 20 years past I can guarantee you that it would be a friend, and not a previous sexual partner. So I believe we need to differentiate the two. A friend is one thing. A ex girlfriend, bed buddy etc. is another. So having my friend Mike that I used to mountain bike with call out of the blue wouldnt be a big deal and wouldnt really need explaining. Having a girl whom I had sexual relations with call out of the blue or want to hang out is a different story.

 

I dont think 'putting the moves on your man' in this situation is presumptious at all. The girl (ex) in question is at the very least guilty of some questionable timing and reasoning when making contact with her ex again. She has relationship problems and suddenly developes a case of the I miss yous, and I wonder ifs. Now she wants relationship advice from him as well. Cmon, dont be blind anyone can see where that is headed MOST of the time.

 

Also I think the spouse meeting the ex is a fine idea. Nobody said they have to discuss the issues at hand... they could just meet, just to meet. Furthermore it gives the ex a chance to explain her situation, or at least be evaluated if shes being honest about this new friendship... or if shes really just looking to rekindle the past.

If she doesnt want to meet the new gf, chances are something is up.

[Rabican]

I think this would be a good thread for the more liberal minded. .

 

yes you are definitely right that this thread, specifically TOV is quite liberal minded compared to us. Who is right? I am of course

 

While everyone has their own opinion, and own boundaries I think we can both agree on this. That someone with TOV's values and myself would never work out together.

 

I think this thread is not so much about trust and jealousy as it is about liberal and conservative, toleration and boundaries.

 

I honestly dont believe that it is JEALOUSY for me so say that its unacceptable for my fiance to spend a week alone at a hotel with an ex. Jealousy would be me getting angry because she spoke to a guy at the checkout line at the store, or wanted to talk to an old guy friend via email for example.

[Miss Firecracker]

I couldn't read all of this very long thread, but from what I've seen...all I can say is WOW!

 

I am just thankful I do not need lots of male friends. It seems to cause lots of problems for people. To each his own, but I'd never go out with another man without my husband there. Maybe with another couple, but NEVER just go hang out with a man. Our marriage is very sacred, much more so than having guys to hang around with. I get by with my girlfriends and family. It works for me.

[Miss Firecracker]

I honestly dont believe that it is JEALOUSY for me so say that its unacceptable for my fiance to spend a week alone at a hotel with an ex.

 

OMG! I certainly agree with this statement.

[tiredofvampires]

I honestly dont believe that it is JEALOUSY for me so say that its unacceptable for my fiance to spend a week alone at a hotel with an ex. Jealousy would be me getting angry because she spoke to a guy at the checkout line at the store, or wanted to talk to an old guy friend via email for example.

 

jeal·ous [jel-uhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective

1. feeling resentment against someone because of that person's rivalry, success, or advantages (often fol. by of): He was jealous of his rich brother.

2. feeling resentment because of another's success, advantage, etc. (often fol. by of): He was jealous of his brother's wealth.

3. characterized by or proceeding from suspicious fears or envious resentment: a jealous rage; jealous intrigues.

4. inclined to or troubled by suspicions or fears of rivalry, unfaithfulness, etc., as in love or aims: a jealous husband.

5. solicitous or vigilant in maintaining or guarding something: The American people are jealous of their freedom.

6. Bible. intolerant of unfaithfulness or rivalry: The Lord is a jealous God.

 

 

So the main ingredient in jealousy is this: intolerance of rivalry, driven by fear and/or suspicion of unfaithfulness.

 

Which means that your "boundaries" are simply not as extreme as the guy with even more restrictive "boundaries" -- who flies off the handle because his wife is talking to some guy in the grocery store. Or the guy who won't let his wife wear sexy, revealing clothing. Or the guy who won't even let his wife LOOK at a man passing on the street who is good-looking.

 

It is all a question of degree, but it is the same exact emotion. You just draw your line in a different place. You don't want to call it "jealous" because the word has negative connotations, but this is definitely a case of calling a spade a spade. You can call it a "boundary" and I would agree completely with that term. And I would also say at the same time that that boundary has been drawn by the hand of jealousy. If you were not fearful and suspicious of unfaithfulness, you would not be taking the stand you are. You want it simply put? Good, in this case so do I. Jealousy is that need to safeguard your territory, and the consequent need to put in place rules to "make sure it doesn't happen", which is an effort at control.

 

I am not passing judgment in this post, I am just defining what we are dealing with.

[tiredofvampires]

yes you are definitely right that this thread, specifically TOV is quite liberal minded compared to us. Who is right? I am of course

 

While everyone has their own opinion, and own boundaries I think we can both agree on this. That someone with TOV's values and myself would never work out together.

 

Yeah, I agree, Rabican. I am relieved to know you weren't so head over heals for me after all is said and done that you were about to propose, whew. lol.

 

So I have been "branded" liberal -- and by JadedStar, "extremely liberal". That is quite alright with me.

 

But then, if I am "extremely liberal", I wonder what JS calls people that are living in a nudist commune and practicing polyamory? If I am "extreme", what are they? You have used up all the left-leaning words there are on me.

 

It's really all relative.

 

I have said here and elsewhere that I am a one-man woman, a romantic to the bone, very loyal and faithful. I do not naturally wish to seek other male sexual advances or attention, let alone activity, when I am with someone I love in a committed relationship. In a partnership, I have no interest in engaging with anyone else sexually.

 

So if my partner thinks that a coffee cup or a dinner plate contains some magic potion that will make me see stars and halos and beguile me to my male friends's bedroom, well, this is as ludicrous, excuse me, as it sounds, stated this way. Having a latte and a biscotti is not going to make me go, "Come to think of it, I should nail him in the lavatory after we pick up the check."

 

If that is even going through my mind, there is something already DRASTICALLY wrong intrinsically with my relationship with my SO. Something far more fundamental, and this is only symptomatic of the problem. That is how people land on the Infidelity forum. In all the cases I read there, the partner who has cheated has serious issues or else the union is deeply in trouble already. One of the two. The infidelity is like an opportunistic disease.

 

To me, jealousy seeks preventive measures to attempt to control outcomes. It is a very natural emotion, as I said in my own first post, one which I know very, very well myself. I am not just preaching, I am coming from the trenches, too. And my assessment of it's "precautionary" nature is that it builds walls, not trust. Trust has an inherent quality of faith that is missing in jealousy. Either you trust your partner to honor your commitment when exposed to the world, or you don't.

 

And what I find particularly fascinating is that while most people who are "conservative" say they trust their partners, it's as though in another sense, there is something that remains fragile in this trust, and I am still trying to figure out. Unless your SO a. loses their mind and jumps the friend, or b. the friend takes advantage of your SO against their will (i.e., rape), how does this occur? Being faithful is a choice. So is being unfaithful. It is a matter of sticking to the choice, simply put. If you have chosen your partner, to another you will simply say "no thank you", although I personally would NOT hang out with a friend from my past, recent or distant, UNLESS he respected my relationship. If he kept putting the strain on our friendship of trying to woo me, I would stop hanging out with him. This has happened in a couple of cases. So that is where I draw my line -- our relating cannot go on if there is an "agenda" to seduce me. That, I would put myself a good deal of distance from.

 

I would also walk away (and did, in my last relationship) from a situation where a man from my more recent past (before I got with my bf, while still single) showed up, wanting to kindle something and I was very attracted to him (though we had not slept together, just gotten close). When he showed up out of the blue, I told him we could hang out together ONLY if he understood that I was taken now. He said he was fine with that, but then started to put moves on me when we got together. Guess what I did? I split, saying I'm sorry, we had an understanding. I was bummed out that to him I was a sex object and not a whole lot more. As much as I was attracted to him, I was able to compartmentalize that and embrace the feeling of his turning into JUST a friend. I wanted to be with my bf, not this guy. He obviously didn't go for it. So it's about being able to discriminate.

 

My longstanding other males friends (including exes) do not behave this way. And so a sense of safety is built with them.

[tiredofvampires]

Im just very much a black and white, right and wrong, simple and to the point kind of guy... so that was a LOT of philosophy for my taste.

 

That may be the crux of the issue. I don't think in terms of black and white, right and wrong, good and evil, and all the other "easy" either-or's. Life is filled with the in-between and shades of grey, and exceptions to the rules, and caveats and extenuating circumstances. I have tried to present some of them, as they appear, in my life. And that is precisely why my ex was, I believe, not attuned to me. Because he didn't care about the specifics or particulars. He did not care that I had a disability and that this meant past guys might actually be a valuable support system which was good for me. He did not care that I in fact conducted myself in my past in such a way that I didn't even have lots of indiscreet stories to brag about. For heaven's sake, I even had a painful and private female disorder that had made sex very difficult for me, so why on earth would I seek someone who I didn't know well or trust, and have a daily intimate life with? All he saw was Woman/Women -- not ME, tiredofvampires.

 

That is what happens when you don't really stop to think about case-by-case scenarios, but instead say "this is right and this is wrong, black and white, period." I feel it's certainly a way to go about simplifying your life, but it doesn't make for well-examined behaviors and reactions and views. Someone said earlier, in another post, (my apologies since I am myself getting lost in the thread, lol) that they just "go from the gut" -- I don't call this going from your "gut." I totally believe in going with your "gut", it is vital. But that is a matter of intuition, tapping into your senses about what is happening and deducing correctly based on very subtle observation and keeness. That is a whole different story from this other definition of "going with your gut", aka, "shooting from your hip", or rather, living reactively. As I like to say, just REACTING to life, rather than RESPONDING. It's like coming to life with a template in your head and stamping everything with that imprint, projecting what is already solidified in your mind and applying that to all situations. Unfortunately, this is rather illusionistic: you put on a pair of glasses and see roses or thorns, when out there it might be something entirely different.

[JadedStar]

So I have been "branded" liberal -- and by JadedStar, "extremely liberal". That is quite alright with me.

 

But then, if I am "extremely liberal", I wonder what JS calls people that are living in a nudist commune and practicing polyamory? If I am "extreme", what are they? You have used up all the left-leaning words there are on me.

 

TOV, let's just say we agree to disagree. You are as literal as you are liberal. When i say extremely liberal you have to, as usual, take it to a whole different context. I am not talking to a member of a nudist colony TOV, nor am I talking to a polygamist, unless you are one or both, so it doesn't matter what I would call them. You know full good and well that the context of my saying extremely liberal is applying to this thread and your views. IN other words, in a relationship sense you are extremely liberal. If i were discussing beaches, then I might say that a nude beach is extremely liberal for a beach. NOw having to sidebar this, does it make this thread any more beneficial or clear? I don't think so but you asked so I answered.

 

Whew is all I have to say, and I hope you make sure that your future b/f's share your philosophies because while many do, many don't, and you cannot change a person you are dating when their views are more on the side of mine and Rabican's to a large degree because then you would be changing their core values.

[Batya33]

Rabican I completely agree. I felt much better having met "the ex" who my bf is still friendly with and does business with. I've met her twice; he's met her a few times for lunch without me and all is well.

[Batya33]

I couldn't read all of this very long thread, but from what I've seen...all I can say is WOW!

 

I am just thankful I do not need lots of male friends. It seems to cause lots of problems for people. To each his own, but I'd never go out with another man without my husband there. Maybe with another couple, but NEVER just go hang out with a man. Our marriage is very sacred, much more so than having guys to hang around with. I get by with my girlfriends and family. It works for me.

 

My relationship is no less "sacred" because I see male friends, lol. I've always had close platonic male friends and my boyfriend being there each time would be boring for him and awkward as well. It enhances my relationship with my boyfriend to have close friends (of either gender) and you cannot be close if you never have one on one time with a friend (unless your SO is just as close - even then the dynamic is different). I am glad my SO has a few close female friends for the same reason -both for him and the positive impact on our relationship.

[tiredofvampires]

istillluvu, you're more than welcome, girl.

 

I hope you're stilled tuned into this thread, lol! I think what you are saying here is so much the point I am trying to make. In my OP, I quoted the Dalai Lama (even though I am not a "religious" person, and am not pushing any religious dogma here, my orientation is to spiritually grow at all times, which means pushing my emotional envelope in challenging ways that will enrich, deepen and improve the quality of experiences we call love, unselfishness, generosity, trust, etc.), and this wise man who talks in very plain English about our minds and the state of our thoughts and feelings made a point, using the grocery store analogy, that I thought was brilliantly put. As I mentioned, he said that we are all, as human beings, prone to emotional states such as hatred, jealousy, anger, envy, and so forth. But that we also have the power within us to not choose to engage in these, but to engage in other emotions. As you say, you can't just wish them gone and have it done. And also, there is a productive side of them, for instance anger -- if you find yourself angry, it means that there is something you need to find justice about, and so that anger has to transform into action against an injustice. But you do not stay in the anger, you do the action which is required, and at the same time, you remain compassionate (a big part of the DL's message, too) in achieving your ends, so the anger itself is transformed as quickly as possible. You do not go around priding yourself for being an angry person, having the "right" to be angry. That is unskillful and unproductive. And most people agree that being an angry person or believing in holding on to anger is very unhealthy. Many people also believe this about envy, surely hatred...but jealousy? (which is the flip side if envy, just another face of it?) That seems to be an "exception" by many people's standards. (I don't think this idea itself makes me more or less liberal, just looking at a side of this that is not being talked about too much; which I guess in action or behavior translates into more liberal.)

 

Envy and jealousy in my life, I have realized to be the signal of one of two things, basically: someone else (a woman, in this case of my relationships) has some quality or qualities that I wish I had, or even just a past with my SO that I wish I'd had and shared with him; or secondly, that I do not feel sufficiently lovable to my SO, or loved, and feel his heart may turn and I would be eventually rejected because he would prefer someone else. Both of these feelings are highly disturbing, to say the least.

 

What is the antidote? In a nutshell, first and foremost as I've found with myself, is to come to the conclusion that you have, which I put in bold. WE were not born mistrusting, we were not born thinking "what if he/she betrays us." We learn about betrayal through living, either seeing other terrible fiascos, or experiencing them ourselves. It is a kind of relationships PTSD, in my opinion. Well, I have also felt jealousy though to my knowledge without being cheated on -- so I suppose that some jealousy, like anger and hate and so forth are innate in some ways. POSSIBLY. Not for everyone. I think all people feel anger at one time or another, and I can't imagine anyone not feeling jealousy at all, under any circumstances. It is a question of degree, mostly. And to the extent that it IS a learned behavior, that is the extent that we feel justified in feeling it, and cultivating it. It is one thing to become aware of it and work through it. It is another to actually accept and cultivate it, and act on it, and have it dictate the way we live our lives. IMHO. I am not saying this means we should have not have any boundaries -- we should not let people deceive us, betray us, lie to us, take advantage of our trust, treat us with suspicion and contempt when it is not warranted. All of these are involved in trust and jealousy issues, and all are appropriate boundaries in my opinion. Where the trouble lies, to me, is if we try to constrict eachother's lives in order to appease the very disturbing feelings I mentioned, above. Often, that results in cases like yours, and the OP's with his wife. I applaud the success of Miss Firecracker (thank you for jumping on board here, even at this advanced stage thread, lol!) and Rabican and Jaded Star and Batya and whoever else has boundaries that take into account the jealousy-factor without any bad repercussions. But the truth is that for every deplorable casualty on the Infidelity thread, there is a deplorable situation like yours, and what was mine, as the flip side.

 

And dreamer, and on the other thread, the hot water boiling point in slightly jealousguy's thread. Because the truth is that we may have VERY well-suited to us partners, who are very compatible in many ways, as I was with my ex, who I KNEW I'd have a very hard time "replacing" in so many ways, but there was this terrible thing in our way to happinesss (among other, which probably would have ended it anyway, but that's irrelavent material.)

 

I think you really do have the answer, sillluv...it's there in bold. I think it's my answer, too, to those very disturbing states of mind. The first thing I mentioned, which is envy for the other woman and feeling she is a threat, is to both appreciate my own unique value more and also if there is something I really always wanted that she embodies, then I can try to incorporate that into my own life (for myself, because it is a true desire that I would want regardless, not just to be like her so my bf will love me.) That is the first part of the "medicine." The second part is to address in myself why I feel so unlovable or rejection-worthy of my partner, or why I question his continuing to love me. In the face of all evidence that he is devoted to me, this means a great deal of soul searaching, maybe with therapy. My feeling afraid of losing his love and abandonment is coming from a very deeply rooted place that was put in place long before he came along. So again, the ball's in MY court, not his. All of this meaning, my work is freakin' cut out for me. ME. This is not for him to fix by agreeing to put a chain around his ankles and be shackled, in thought, word or deed as he is still an autonomous and individual human being. He does not belong to me just because we have agreed to have a sacred relationship and love eachother. So I cannot ensure that he does not "escape."

 

The moment I start to try, it is less about trust and love and more about fear.

 

I don't consider these reflections a matter of "liberal" or "conservative", those labels are applicable and relevant in broad terms of how we see one another on a more surface plane. But we are all subject to laws of human nature, and so I don't see these dynamics as differences among us. I believe we all have these issues going on, we all have human nature. So I think my thread is not geared towards anyone in particular, "liberal" or "conservative", it is geared towards anyone who, like me, had struggled and is still struggling, with human nature -- mine or another person's, especially if that person is someone we want to live with for the rest of our lives.

 

Especially if, as in my case, this person we wanted to live with for the rest of our lives says they truly want to understand us, and in ways might want to see eye to eye, but de facto, in actual LIVING, is being ruled by assumptions, learned behaviors, fears, doubts, suspicions and maybe even lack of insight into their partner (me), and choosing that whereas I would not choose that. These choices in the end were incompatible, but I believe what we both wanted -- a happy future in marriage together, intimacy, trust, bonding, eachother -- kept the dream, the struggle and the effort alive until it couldn't survive any longer. It is all very tragic to me, I feel I lost a great thing. But so did he.

 

I don't feel HE was the problem in this aspect of our relationship.

 

I don't think I was either.

 

Jealousy (its hypervigilant quality) was the problem.

[JadedStar]

The first thing I mentioned, which is envy for the other woman and feeling she is a threat, is to both appreciate my own unique value more and also if there is something I really always wanted that she embodies, then I can try to incorporate that into my own life (for myself, because it is a true desire that I would want regardless, not just to be like her so my bf will love me.)

 

We can appreciate ourselves and love ourselves all we want, and it is definitely the right thing for us to do so, but if we lull ourselves into thinking that if we do this we'll never be cheated on or done wrong and look the other way when our partners are doing things that are inappropriate then we have no business crying the blues if we are done wrong. We always want to be with a partner who loves us and has our best interest at heart, but we should always have our OWN best interests at heart as well and that means speaking up for ourselves if we are put into a position of disrespect. For some of us we most certainly believe our partners going on an outing with an ex who has made it clear she wants him back is inappropriate and we also feel that an overnight hotel stay in the same room with an ex is beyond the call of what should be expected by a reasonable partner who loves us and respects our feelings. We can disagree all day long, that is fine, but I think that a different view should at least also be discussed vs one way being sold as gospel. So my reasoning behind posting this is not to argue with you, just to keep the discussion open to other thought processes in regards to "is it jealousy" or is it a "reasonable boundary". Just because you define this as jealousy does not make it so. You want to search teh dictionary for the defintion of jealousy, then lets search for the definition of "boundary": noun: the line or plane indicating the limit or extent of something

noun: a line determining the limits of an area

Looking at that definition what I described above as being reasonable boundaries definitely is in line with what the definition of a boundary is.

 

There is a clear difference in eyes being open or closed, and not embracing activities that are clearly a fuzzy area of appropriateness and it has nothing to do with a person not loving or caring about themselves.

 

Do you know how many people in this world who loved themselves might have had the rug ripped out from underneath them because they THOUGHT they were doing the right thing and not being jealous, etc but what they were really doing was being a doormat for their partner to do things that probably should not have been done.

 

If you think not being like the ex so your b/f will love you more is the right potient here for non betrayal you might be kidding yourself more than you realize.

 

You are within your right to feel anyway you want, but it is also the right of some of the other members to try to depict a different glance at how these things could turn out.

 

We can still agree to disagree, this post is more for others who read and become confused if their definition of jealousy is different from yours at least they will get a well rounded view and that others share their thought processes on what might or might not be appropriate.

[Batya33]

What I take from this is also the practical perspective. Self-love and acceptance is all well and good, as is exploring the "why" we distrust or get jealous- nothing wrong with that. But my preference - which I believe this post reflects - is to just do the basic smell test.

 

If it seems inappropriate, gray area, shady, there's no harm in talking to a few trusted friends, seeing if they feel the same way (if you need some validation) and then having a practical conversation with your partner as in "hey - I know in a perfect world I would be as trusting as the day I was born, that I would love myself sufficiently, but, um, do you really have to have lunch with Susie given how vulnerable she is and how she still has feelings for you? Look, I trust you and I am fairly confident that she will behave, but the part of me that isn't will give me a stomachache for those three hours and that is the day that I hoped to do [relaxing activity.] if you want we can talk about something you think I should give up in return."

 

Sounds reasonable to me and like a typical negotiation between people that happens about lots of things. If I got the reaction "well you should go to a therapist and figure out these trust issues/jealousy issues/boundaries you have" then that would be a clue that I wasn't with the right partner - nothing wrong maybe with his boundaries, just not compatible with mine.

 

And even if the other person thinks the reaction is silly, that she should trust more/love more, etc. he can decide that he will forego this lunch to make her happy because Susie just isn't as important to him.

 

Each couple draws their own lines and boundaries depending on the situation.

[JadedStar]

Sounds reasonable to me and like a typical negotiation between people that happens about lots of things. If I got the reaction "well you should go to a therapist and figure out these trust issues/jealousy issues/boundaries you have" then that would be a clue that I wasn't with the right partner - nothing wrong maybe with his boundaries, just not compatible with mine.

 

Exactly. Totally agreed.

 

And I guess the thing that bugs me about this thread a little is how it seems an assumption is being made that everyone has the same type and level of boundaries...what some are calling jealousy sounds like a boundary to me.

 

TOV if you were to go to one of the anti P0RN threads and tell those ladies that they were being jealous and if they loved and respected themselves they would get over their bad feelings about their partners using this you'd probably get your head bitten off. LOL Reason being, everyone has different tolerance levels and we can't decide who is being too jealous or who is just assuring their boundaries are met.

 

An example is Batya and I have different boundary levels when it comes to opposite gender friends and one on one time wiht SO's...but even tho our personal boundaries vary a little bit, we seem to be exactly on the same page as far as this topic in that everyone has a different tolerance level and there is no black or white in these cases.

[tiredofvampires]

First of all, I totally respect your even-handed views, JS. Though you have a bias and I have a bias, I do appreciate your statement earlier that "neither is right or wrong." I did raise the question in this thread about "what is a Universal truth" in the sense of ideals to strive for, as another rhetorical reflection to ponder (one which I haven't figured out yet myself), but in the relativistic and realistic world we live in, which I do embrace, I totally agree with you. And it is what helps us make decisions about who and who not to marry. Though we may have friends who radically disagree on things such as this.

 

So I am in no way denying anyone's right to feel as they do! Or to have their own value system! I couldn't deny them the right even if I wanted to try. It's not possible. And of course, I wouldn't want to. I feel the liveliness in this thread is as much due to the controversy from people who do not think like I do (which is, I admit, the majority of the population, or at least I think so). It helps me understand the opposite way of thinking/believing/having better, and wrapping my mind around what I have personally run up against, which was of great consequence to my life.

 

I am not selling anything as "gospel", that is not quite fair to the attitude that I have been taking all this while. I have not once gotten up on a soapbox here and said everyone has to think like me. I will admit that when I look at this topic, I have the strong feeling that my views are good ones in a general way, and certainly it would make my life better and easier if others were not so alienated by me/them, as it would make my dating propects a whole lot better, lol. But I think I have addressed this as modestly as I can, given my passionate feelings about this, and as HellFrost has said, I am no different from any other posters here for this.

 

If anything, JS, I find it very surprising and out-of-character with your other posts elsewhere that you feel "this thread has a problem in that it woud make someone feel very guilty", and that in a way, it needs a warning label for conservatives' tender feelings which may be "confused" by reading this provocative thread. It seems you fear for those who will read this "doctrine" ( that they will be swayed by shame and guilt and misgiving and confusion to doubt themselves or feel badly about themselves. Weren't you the one who told me "no one can make you feel bad about yourself and tear down your self-esteem but you"? You do not seem to worry at all about my feeling guilty with the many harsh things you have said (all of which I feel are your right to tell me, as the "hard truth") about how my actions in my relationship, from the conservative stance, are unacceptable and how you would have packed your bags and left me. This is my duty as a poster on ENA to listen to, and respect as simply another point of view, and any guilt or shame or self-doubt or confusion is really my responsibility, isn't it? I do not have a "protector" on this site in you and many others who do not agree with me, and it is as it should be, isn't it? My guilt and confusion is not "caused" by anyone, is it? My needing to stand my ground bravely just to believe in myself is up to me. You have taken this position with me, as well as other posters who become hurt and defensive. I read all your posts thoroughly because I find you often even-handed and broad-minded in many respects, and of sound judgment, including in one way that we really do agree -- that the feelings a post generates is the "risk" you take being on this board.

 

So now, you are in a way making me out to be the one responsible for others' feelings and reactions. This is not like you, JS. Every poster on this thread who questions themselves either has a reason to, or a right to, or perhaps it's a good thing for them to have things shaken up a bit, just to be able to come back to what they truly believe. That is what I have been put through on this site, and you certainly have been one to take the lead in making sure my "confusion and guilt" be squarely laid at my feet. This is in no way a quibble against you, it is just stating that I have not been spared, as a "liberal", from the unpleasant questioning and self-doubt you would want to protect "conservatives" from. My goodness, if I had not taken it upon myself to deal with all the upsetting feelings of being alone and alienated emotionally with some of what has been leveled against me in a mature perspective, I would have run screaming from this board quite some time ago!!

 

C'mon, why are we suddenly so worried about people's fragile feelings?

[JadedStar]

If anything, JS, I find it very surprising and out-of-character with your other posts elsewhere that you feel "this thread has a problem in that it woud make someone feel very guilty", and that in a way, it needs a warning label for conservatives' tender feelings which may be "confused" by reading this provocative thread. It seems you fear for those who will read this "doctrine" () that they will be swayed by shame and guilt and misgiving and confusion to doubt themselves or feel badly about themselves.

 

You are doing it again. You are putting things into context that you know doesn't exist.

 

My reason for being here is to provide support and help others. So you can bet that YES i think if a thread is adamantly defining jealousy in a very specific way that others who are wondering if they are in the right or not should get a broader view particularly when it is a stance that I am passionate about as equally as you are passionate about yours. You can absolutely bet that I feel that the other side of the discussion should be fairly covered and I don't think I have ever given any indication that I would feel any other way.

 

IF you have not assessed that yet from my personality that is your faux paus because I take giving advice to people seriously and jsut because I may take a passionate stance on some topics does not mean I do not care about the people I give advice too. I never give advice if I don't believe in it. It is up to the reader to decide if my advice is right for them, or not.

 

This is in no way a quibble against you

 

I said several times my point was not to argue with you but yet here you are, assuming that this is an argument again. It's not TOV. This is just a discussion where a few on the thread happen to have a different POV. Since i mentioned it more than once that I was not aruging only discussing a topic I am passionate about why would you choose to say the above? I never once said that your posts were a quibble against me or even about me, nor were mine a quibble to or about you personally. This discussion is about the "views" not the individual people. People's names are only brought up to address which post or statement we are referring to.

[Batya33]

I once by accident posted on a betrayed spouses support group board (because I did not know it was just for support) my view that it's ok to have male platonic friends and harmless flirtation. I received an e-mail from the moderator telling me that I could not post that on a board devoted to supporting betrayed spouses.

 

I agree that there are some people who have issues that need to be addressed professionally when it comes to trust and jealousy, and some people who have gotten to a point that no matter how much they loved someone, they would not be bothered by jealousy of anything or anyone in a romantic relationship. I don't know anyone like that and if we were in a relationship I would not be happy because, crazy as it may sound, a little jealousy is a bit flattering, reflects care, etc. I would doubt that he "truly" loved me if he wasn't the least bit jealous of another man hitting on me or similar. If he explained that it came from some religious, meditative, or spiritual experience that would be somewhat intriguing, but I don't know that deep down I would buy that he never got jealous if he truly cared.

[tiredofvampires]

I am only saying it's not a quibble to make sure you know I am not attacking you. That is my own reason for saying that. I am not saying you are quibbling.

 

"You are doing it again. You are putting things into context that you know doesn't exist."

 

I actually don't know what you mean by this.

 

All I am saying is that self-reflection is a messy thing, which includes forays into self-doubt and questioning. This is how we grow and sometimes shed attitudes that are no longer working for us. Your first post on this thread is very much congruent with my beliefs in this thread. So those who do not have anything to question or doubt will either not visit this thread, not engage in it, or take a view that is different from mine. But for those who become doubtful and confused, all I'm saying is that maybe there is a good reason for that, maybe it isn't such a bad thing. Maybe it is a good thing! Maybe they have been negatively affected by their jealousy or that of a partner, and this is very timely for them to examine other beliefs. It's not always fun and easy and validating to question oneself and why one behaves and believes as they do. Perhaps it asks a lot more of them than their current status quo to enjoy life more, to ask themselves the hard questions of how they want to be happy and not just live on autopilot, like istiilluvu says. So then you can re-evaluate yourself in this messy process of unflinching self-inventory and pat yourself on the back at the end of the day that at least you looked into the matter, whatever your conclusion is.

 

That in itself I think is what you've recommended on these boards and all I'm saying is that my position now seems "threatening" enough to people's wellbeing that you seem to be calling it a "problem." It's great if you want to passionately present the other side, but you said my thread had a "problem" in "making people feel very guilty." All I'm saying is that a post cannot "make" someone feel guilty or lower their self-esteem by your reckoning, and sometimes it should ask of them to squarely examine what and if they want to change. So it seems there is no problem with my thread whatsoever.

[JadedStar]

What I mean about you taking things out of context is the part about this "thread making people feel very guilty". You are not quoting the entire part of that. What i mean is let's say you have a poster like itstilluv but instead of being okay iwth the ex and her partner's lunch date she felt really bad about it, and was seeking advice from others here to find out if she had any reason to believe she was crazy for feeling that way. If your posts on jealousy were all she had to go on she might walk away feeling she was in the wrong for feeling bad about this, but because a few of us have provided that even balance she might read some of those posts and think, well good, at least there are others who agree with me so I must not be totally off base.

 

I don't mean "Very guilty" as in walking around guilt ridden over a thread. You are reading something into it that was not intended. When I wrote that about guilt I meant waht I described as an example in the paragraph above.

 

All I am saying is that self-reflection is a messy thing

WHAT? Did you write that correctly? Self reflection is a messy thing? I have to strongly disagree. Are we talking about the same kind of self reflection here as in when one reflects on their actions and behaviors in an effort to self examine and perhaps change strategy if needed?

 

I am only saying it's not a quibble to make sure you know I am not attacking you.

 

I am not attacking you either. Please do not take my disagreement as combativeness. We both just seem to have a passion for this topic, we just share a different philosophy on the mechanics of it but it seems the overall view is similar...it is the granular details that differ. That is the problem wtih the internet - context. If we were having this same discussion face to face it would probably be crystal clear that there are no angry feelings just differences of opinion.

[tiredofvampires]

What i mean is let's say you have a poster like itstilluv but instead of being okay iwth the ex and her partner's lunch date she felt really bad about it, and was seeking advice from others here to find out if she had any reason to believe she was crazy for feeling that way. If your posts on jealousy were all she had to go on she might walk away feeling she was in the wrong for feeling bad about this, but because a few of us have provided that even balance she might read some of those posts and think, well good, at least there are others who agree with me so I must not be totally off base.

 

I think you are referencing the poster dreamer, not istillluvu, I would not think her crazy for having those emotions. I would hope she wouldn't feel that either. But it is good for her to see that she can get validation for the feelings but also have another perspective with which to evaluate those feelings. My opinion being the ONLY one is a moot point, since she has hundreds of other posts in dozens of forums to find herself in VERY good company. So my personal exploration and introspective insights, if you will, I think provide actually the balancing view here, since I am in the minority. And in her case, even though she was told that she wasn't crazy for her feelings, she actually decided to go with some of the things I am suggesting are helpful perspectives for ME. So far, so good, it seems, with her SO and her ex's lunch and her. I hope she keeps us tuned in to the latest!

 

I have also read quite a number of threads in other forums where these types of conflicts and issues arise, and lots of posters are more moderate than the "conservative" heavyweights weighing in on this thread. Let's face it: those of us who are looking at the trust and jealousy forums have passionate ideas and some issues therein of one kind or another, or we wouldn't be looking here so keenly. I have read many a post saying, "my gf has many guy friends, and that's ok with me" or "I say innocent until proven guilty" and all I can think to myself is exactly what you state here, JS, about needing to sometimes think I'm "not totally off-base." If it weren't for seeing those posts here and there, I WOULD start to feel crazy on this sounding board. (Not that I don't anyway, lol). It's just that those posters are not on these threads or in this forum because this is not a key issue for them. Similarly, I imagine many people like me are probably out there who would agree with me about my stance, but they are not even on this site. So I'm doing the best I can to work through my issues here, with the slice of the representative population I find here...and in a way, I think it's a good barometer of how things are out there. The people we hang around with and pick and choose as our friends tend to think like us, whereas here, we are not picking and choosing who to "hang with". It's a free-for all, and in that process, you are going to meet up with some people who do not reflect the way you'd like to see things. Sometimes I find this disturbing if I am not clear exactly on where I stand myself, and have not gotten clear what I think is "right" as a boundary for myself. Which does tend to be an issue in my life. I allow others to stomp on me with their boundaries as though my needs are less valid. This is my effort to examine their position and my own, and I am coming to see, swimming as I am upstream here as a salmon, that my views are as legitimate and useful (not just to me, but people who this thread has benefitted in any way to read) as they are "unpopular."

 

I was just having dinner with a friend (male, not an ex -- who is single) last night and I brought up this whole topic. And even this thread! I told him about all the rankling going on here. He's a longtime friend, world traveler, he lives in Australia...anyway, safe to say I value his opinion as a very wordly person in many ways (he is a few years my senior). He expressed total alignment with my views, saying that even though he preferred monogamy, there is no intrinsic wrong in infidelity except 2 things: deception/lie/betrayal, and that it is an escape from problems in the primary relationship that haven't been addressed. Other than that, if theoretically people decided to say, hey, you're not going anywhere, I'm not going anywhere, we want to be together, but I'd like to sleep with this other person, see you tomorrow, that in itself is not biologically unsound. Now if I was "extremely liberal", this is a lifestyle I might want to live. But since I am just "liberal", I would not go for this. Though I think in ways it is a very strong, not weak, relationship that can withstand that. Most by far could not. So we make agreements and sacred vows and have commitment, and a breech of that is then a terrible violation. One which I would be as wounded by as anyone else, and that's why I trust myself not to do that to my partner, even if I spend a night with a platonic friend ex in separate beds in the same hotel room because it is convenient. I have a conscience and I love my beloved too much to jeopardize it with an infidelity. If that happened, either I have a serious problem to address in therapy, or WE have serious joint problems to address in therapy. That is where I draw MY boundary, with the actual deed done. "Innocent until proven guilty." Or just innocent until guilty.

 

So then I asked my friend, "So you are a guy, and you've been around lots of guys. You and I talk about this so freely, like it was no big deal, and agree that fidelity is a decision, and if your partner can't keep themselves from cheating, then maybe they should not be with you after all...and to try to control them or it is useless anyway. Do you think your opinion is a widely held one among guys?" And he said, "No....but nuts attract nuts. You're a nut and I'm a nut." lol. Obviously, he is a lot more confident in his departure from the norm than I am, I suppose because he has not been as thoroughly burned as I have been in the last 2 years by the attempt to live by someone else's standards (which I did try to do) and being guilt-tripped.

[tiredofvampires]

All I am saying is that self-reflection is a messy thing

WHAT? Did you write that correctly? Self reflection is a messy thing? I have to strongly disagree. Are we talking about the same kind of self reflection here as in when one reflects on their actions and behaviors in an effort to self examine and perhaps change strategy if needed?

 

Yes, I wrote that correctly. What is so weird about that?

 

Yes, when I say self-reflection is a messy thing, it's that very basic principle that sometimes it's not pretty to look at our dark side, what is holding us back, what we could do better and why. It often is very painful. Just as therapy often is. I'm not sure what you could possibly disagree about here. Growth if often a difficult process in emotional self-examination and scary discoveries about things we didn't want to admit to ourselves about our MO.

 

(and good, I think we agree this is not an attacking discussion whatsoever.)

[JadedStar]

than the "conservative" heavyweights weighing in on this thread

 

I am not a conservative heavyweight TOV. I disagree with that definition as much as you might disagree with the branding of being extermely liberal. That is our difference, i do not think that it extremely conservative to expect to be respected and not have my husband off galivanting with ex's that still haVe feelings for him.

 

I am by definition not even conservative at all. I only used the liberal defintion for you and conservative for me to describe this one facet. But as an overall person I am a far cry from a conservative heavyweight. Not even politically. I am very liberal, I just do not think that the examples we have been debating over are considered respectful much less the thinking of "heavyweight conservative". I do agree that in this one facet of relationships I am more conservative than you, but that is a far cry from being a heavyweight conservative LOL.

 

I'll put your words back on you as you did me earlier with my calling you extremely liberal. If I am a heavyweight conservative, or the others who weighed in similiarly, then what on earth would you call an extreme right wing republican who does not agree with pro choice or gay marriage? You have used up that expansive definition to describe me who DOES believe in these things. So your term is grossly misused.

 

And yes you are correct, I referenced the wrong poster. there were too many replies to sift back thru and i went on memory. My bad on that one.

[JadedStar]

Yes, I wrote that correctly. What is so weird about that?

 

Yes, when I say self-reflection is a messy thing, it's that very basic principle that sometimes it's not pretty to look at our dark side, what is holding us back, what we could do better and why. It often is very painful. Just as therapy often is. I'm not sure what you could possibly disagree about here. Growth if often a difficult process in emotional self-examination and scary discoveries about things we didn't want to admit to ourselves about our MO.

 

(and good, I think we agree this is not an attacking discussion whatsoever.)

 

 

Yes, now that you have further elaborated I do agree it can be messy. I misinterpreted that the way it was written the first time...