bluecastle

I don't think your friend has much of a point, since she's (a) speaking in huge generalizations about an age gap that (b) seems too minuscule to even be reaching for terms like "generation gap." Can only speak for myself but if I see a 38 year old dating, say, a 33 year old, what I see is much closer to peers than "younger woman" and "older guy." Will there be some potential differences? Sure. Someone in their early 30s is still shaking off the dregs of their 20s—that's their reference point still. While someone your age is looking through the door of 40, still kind of way out on the horizon to someone just getting into their 30s. But whatever. Go with what feels right to you. What is it you're looking for? Longterm relationship, marriage, kids? Speaking in broad brushstrokes, there are many ways I think a woman in her early 30s and a man in his late 30s are kind of ideal for all that.

I'm going to pick apart this analogy a bit, if you'll humor me, in hopes of offering some words that may be useful to you. The reason the smoker doesn't quit is simple: smoking is very, very pleasurable. When you're stressed, it calms you down. When you're tired, it wakes you up. The danger is maybe part of the appeal, sure, to say nothing of the addictive qualities if nicotine. But all in all? The act of smoking is pretty soothing, lovely, and that immediate, tangible pleasure is hard to let go of to prevent something (cancer, death, whatever) that is still abstract. These exchanges you're opting into with your ex? They sound pretty agonizing, not quite the release one gets from ducking out for a smoke. Still, my question to you is: what is the pleasure you are getting from them? I think that's worth exploring, owing, and isolating. If you can see what that is, without judgement, self-recrimination, or her-recrimination, you may find that you assign less power to her and have an easier time moving on so you can find a version of connection (with yourself, with others) that delivers what you're looking for in a less turbulent form.

Sorry about this. I'd just give him some space. His reaction strikes me as immature and petulant, but, then again, he's sick and that can bring out the impatient diva in the best of people. This should blow over. If it doesn't? Well, deal with that then rather than trying to prevent that through an avalanche of apologies, since you can see that's just having the opposite effect. Besides, you know you don't actually have anything to apologize for. Covid has put everyone on edge, shortened tempers. Getting edgy because he's edgy is not going to solve anything. If you guys have been good and solid for a year and a half you should have the foundation to take this hit and recover, frustrating as it all is right now. Edited to add: You mentioned this being your first argument. Whatever the circumstances, those are always awful and destabilizing. Just remember that there is not a couple on planet Earth that hasn't gotten into a knot.

I couldn't help but notice this. Life is complicated, the internet is weird, as are human beings, so perhaps I'm stretching here to make a point, but... It sounds like with this ex you pursued her, and she kept you at bay, telling you multiple times that "I feel like I might hurt you." And your reaction was to keep pushing her. And what happened when she, so to speak, gave in to your pursuit? She ended up doing exactly what she said she would do. Now you have someone saying something equally clear ("I don't feel a romantic connection to you") and you're kind of looking for another "signal" that might negate that, offer another shot, a way in. Might be worth looking at all that, no? I don't want to be pessimistic. I've been in versions of your shoes, often have been in her shoes, and have some history with edgy romances that start off with this sort of dance. But I also have some history when romances start off pretty simply: one date, another, another, both people feeling it, etc. The latter is a whole lot more fun, while the former can be really draining. In your preset shoes? I'd chalk this one up as not an option, date around, and should she let you know—clearly, with words and actions—that something has changed you can see about all this then.

Oof. Yeah, that's a pretty lousy therapist from what you've outlined. A better one would have asked you if there way anything else going on in your life that was devastating, or some such, to try to peel back to layers and get to the roots. Sorry you had that experience and hope it doesn't sour your to the whole thing. Think you'd find the right match really helpful. Per the self-esteem stuff: I'd encourage a different outlook. Seems to me your self-esteem wasn't in the strongest spot when you first met this dude; otherwise his pull over you wouldn't ever have been so strong. All of which is understandable. Curdled marriage, anger-prone husband: not exactly boosts to the confidence core, all that. Attention from this guy, and the possibility of him being a dip in warm lagoon after feeling out in the cold: can't help but think all that masked the places where your self-esteem was already hurting. When it went away? The hurt returned, more potent after a break from it. From this angle, he loses all power and before you lies the real issue: a life that is not serving you, or your spirit, and needs to be sorted out. Daunting stuff, without question, but it's a process. One step. Then another. What feels purely uphill starts to level out. Think about how you'd want your kids to walk in the very human shoes you're presently walking in, and go from there.

No, you weren't crazy. You had a flirtation at work that was mutual, though it sounds like he didn't put the same weight on it, or assign the same meaning to it, as you did. Is that because you're married? Because he's emotionally stunted from past experiences? Or because he just wasn't quite as into it all as you were, preferring it to be conceptual while you wanted it actualized? It's likely some combination of all of the above. But this road is not closure, I don't think. Kind of the opposite: it's trying to keep open something that has already closed, to say nothing of a can of worms that was always best unopened. I don't say that with any judgement, but just to encourage you to think about "closure" from a different angle, one that frees up emotional space to focus on what is most urgent. Can't help but ask: How exactly was your therapist dismissive about your problems? Your writing here contains a whiff of frustration at those who, unlike your friend, don't tell you what you already wanted to hear. Therapy only works if you're willing to listen to perspectives that don't conform to your own.

I think it's telling that of all the advice here you are still focusing on this, as if knowing there "something" between you two would solve everything in your life. Being frank, it wouldn't, won't. The end of a marriage, even one that's "basically over," is a hard thing. Stir in kids and it's even harder. Stir in a new job that isn't working out and it's even harder. From where I sit, a lot of your focus on him is you not wanting to face all of that, yet all that is the "something" that needs your time and energy. Generally speaking, any time we're super obsessed with another person, especially someone we don't have any real history with, have not seen for months, and who stopped engaging with us, is a sign that there is something inside of us that needs care and attention.

Some further thoughts triggered by this sentence: What struck me about your past threads was the sense that you felt everything you were feeling after your breakup was "bad," meaning that it was something to work on eliminating as soon as possible so all would again be "good." This mentality, while understandable, has limitations that are outlined up and down this forum in all sorts of different ways. If a relationship is deemed "good," for example, primarily because it has stopped you from thinking about an ex—rather than because a multifaceted human being is blowing your top in all the right ways—it will invariably be deemed "bad" when thoughts of an ex creep in, since those thoughts had already been labeled "bad," the thing you need to keep at bay. Drinking is an easy metaphor. If something is painful, getting super drunk will eliminate that pain, for a few moments. But then comes the hangover (new pain) and as the brain gets back in touch with its circuitry the very thoughts and feelings you were hoping to numb are back, often in technicolor. By trying to avoid pain or not learning to just sit with it for a minute, you compound it. Not saying all that as some air-tight diagnosis of what's happening here. Just things to be aware of, maybe reflect on.

Highlighting these sentences because I think they're pretty brilliant and relevant. Big picture, I think this sort of thing is very normal, and that as a relationships progresses and deepens we sometimes find ourselves reflecting back on past relationships. You have a kid, if I correctly recall? Think about how interacting with your child, or watching your child go through a big milestone, can make you think back to your own childhood, sometimes with some melancholy. We live our lives in a continuum, not a vacuum, after all. That said, I couldn't help but notice that you didn't answer a very important question from bolt: I recall your earlier threads pretty clearly, and my sense was that you were really struggling to give yourself time to just heal before dating, but were instead kind of rebounding and, in the process, magnifying the breakup. Was your current girlfriend part of that? Only you know the ins and outs of your head and heart. Guess what I'm trying to say is that thoughts like this are fine—they happen—but if they're connected to being lukewarm in a committed relationship that's something to deal with.

I think you're overthinking here. Your ex was out with this woman, they realized they had you in common, and decided to poke you. Happens. Now that that moment is over, your ex is fading back into the life she's been living. Doesn't mean you were used. Think of it like saying hi on a street corner, making small talk, rather than anything super loaded.

What's the part you hate, exactly? People using apps to diss apps, or that dude faded out? I certainly get how this can be frustrating, but I'm not quite getting the "pathetic liar" part. If you can't stand men, it's probably best to not use dating apps to talk to them. That in itself is a recipe for unhappiness. On the other hand, if you find it tedious when people on apps drone on in pixilated paragraphs about how lame apps are you are under no obligation to engage, so perhaps some fine-tuning of your own app habits might be in order? Can only speak for myself, but I used the apps to meet people in person, and made that clear after a handful of texts. Those who wanted to type paragraphs were free to move on to someone else, as I didn't have the bandwidth to go there. Made it all a lot less complicated, and prevented bitterness from hardening around the edges. Anyhow, what you're describing is not a "men" thing, I don't think, but a people thing. People are weird, and annoying, and the apps can certainly offer a front row seat to all that weirdness. But people are astoundingly wonderful too, and apps can help in meeting them, so there's that. Maybe save the paragraphs for face to face and your view on men might soften a bit?

Can you describe what "too fast" looked like on the first date? And how did this run-in at her work come about today? Did she ask you to swing by once you resumed texting, or did you choose to swing by? I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of all this. That said, the moment someone says they're not feeling a romantic connection is generally the moment when you take the hit with grace, dust off and move on, rather than continue to pursue and/or hover about the periphery nursing hopes. I can only speak for myself, but when I've said those words to people they are final. Doesn't mean I won't continue to be friendly, or be open to friendship. But romance? No. In your shoes, I wouldn't read much into the banter today, the two-armed hug. That's kind of grasping at straws. My guess here is she was being nice and that part of the reason it was lighter is that she's made her disinterest clear to you. Not what you want to hear, I know, but I'm thinking your time and energy is likely better spent elsewhere.

If you and I had a frank talk three months ago, or six months ago, would you have told me you were happy in your relationship or having doubts? Would you have told me you were feeling good in your own skin, or a little itchy? I ask because people who play with fire tend to want to get burned, or burn something down. No one used anyone here. You cheated on your boyfriend and he cheated on his wife. It’s a very common thing that happens, sadly, typically when two people who are less than happy with their lives, and not very imaginative in looking for solutions, collide. Putting it like that kind of pours some cold water on it all, I know, but I think you’ll thank yourself later if you figure out what’s driving all this rather than looking for ways to keep at it or feel victimized by it all. Why do you think you’re so finished on this guy?

One problem, as I see it, is your penchant for thinking of all this (by which I mean attractive women) as "everything" rather than "nothing," or, more generously, "maybe a something." Cute woman asks about you. Great! Nice boost! Set up a date, see about the date, take things from there, understanding and accepting that it might not go anywhere. But this... ...is way over the top. It's fun, I get it. But it's fun in the way doing 10 shots of tequila is fun. Doesn't always leave people feeling proud of themselves, you know? Again, this shouldn't be a question at this stage. You can't "salvage" something that is not yet a thing. If Monday is still on, great. Chill with the texting, chill with the flirting. Send her a note over the weekend that you're looking forward to Monday and go from there. That's the little big picture. Big picture: It's great that you're aware of some self-esteem issues, but what are you doing, aside from asking out women, to address them?

This was my first reaction as well. I understand that seeing those images hurt her, and that this hurt was likely compounded by your initial reaction. Still, it seems that something else is likely compounding this as well. Proposal on the horizon, and you've just moved in together after 6 years living apart: that's a lot of new weather of the sort that can stir up anxieties, ghosts of the past, who knows. Do you have a sense as to whether anything else is stressing her out in life these days? Work, money, weight, feeling adrift? Just spitballing here to open the aperture... Are things still pretty tense in the house? Hopefully they start to cool down a bit, and, when they do, I'd try to make space to talk—but, really, space to just listen to her. Spend this week going into conversations with a personal rule to not defend anything she says and to ask lots of questions. Not always easy, that, especially when you likely question her rationality and feel your integrity is being litigated. But what you need to understand right now is the truth about her feelings, hoping to get to the roots together, rather than trying to shift her perspective on the emails. Somewhere, on some level, I suspect she knows this isn't really about emails.

Granted, I like hiking myself, but I can see how the monotony can get old. I had more fun than not using the apps, and met my girlfriend on Bumble, an endless source of amusement for both us, but I seem to be an outlier in all this judging from this site. Anyhow, depending on how much of strain it is for you financially, I'd go ahead and try to premium for a month and see how it all lands. Worst case? No real change, but information. Best case? Well, who knows?

Never did the premium thing when I was using Bumble, but have some friends who did. All in all, I think the plus was that it streamlined the crazy process a bit by showing you who'd swiped on you, which I'd imagine can be especially nice in a high population areas. Generally speaking, how are you finding these apps? Can't imagine that premium is going to make them incredible if you're not already having some luck and good times.

Haven't you already expressed this to her, as outlined in your original post? Look, we meet people when we meet them, and wherever they are on their own journey. Dating is about getting a feel for all that, and seeing if our own journeys can compliment, and be complimented by, another's. Though you've repeatedly cited your age as rationalization for moving fast, I'd argue the opposite is the case. You two have about a century of life split between you two, which is to say 100 years of habits, character traits, and other relationships, with kids, with kids' parents, to see about braiding into a basket that holds water. What you've outlined about her, the relationship with the ex—sure, there are "red flags." She sounds pretty entangled with something that doesn't radiate healthy. But I don't think those flags have the same deep crimson hue as the one where you seem to expect her to be reshaping her life and habits around you at warp speed. The subtext here is that you do not respect the way she lives her life, or have much faith in her, which are death knells to a sustained connection. The strongest love gets snuffed out by that. Don't get me wrong. In your shoes I'd likely be feeling a lot of what you're feeling, and can only imagine it's a lot to process given how much you care about her. I just don't believe that six months into a relationship is the time to be taking on someone's relationship with their ex, especially when children are involved. Honestly, I don't think that's really ever something to meddle with, but more something to observe, live alongside for a bit and see if it works for you, or does not. For reference, I'm 3.5 years into a relationship where these are all factors, though in that time I have spent exactly zero seconds trying to get my partner to change her behavior when it comes to her ex-husband and their relationship. They have an amazing child together, and I respect them both in how they handle that business. If I didn't? There would be no us.

Do you mean someone forming an attachment to you, or you them? I ask because a lot of these posts seem to be about controlling the outcome, managing the feelings and expectations of another human being so things don't get painful, messy, whatever. Which is understandable. You're a kind person, you don't want to hurt people, let alone find yourself dealing with drama. But also? It's not your responsibility, not fully. Just be clear, have fun, and if things get a little wobbly, deal with that then, not at the outset by having all these rules of stagecraft. There is nothing casual about this level of analysis after all. I have plenty of experience with what I think you're looking for here, most all of it satisfying and drama free. Have I been disappointed here and there? For sure. Have I disappointed people? Without question. But that's all dating.

Some people (as Batya just laid out) date very explicitly to find a longterm committed partner, while others are open to a variety of experiences. Still others, which seems to be the case of @DarkCh0c0, seem to explicitly be looking for something that never evolves past the ephemeral stage. Been in all those spots myself, especially the latter two. Honestly, I don't think it merits a lot of analysis, save for not swiping right on any profiles that explicitly say they're looking for commitment. From there, everything will present itself pretty fluidly: in pre-date chatting, chatting on dates. Those are the moments when you explain what you're into and see if you gel with someone. As others have pointed out, this can all get murky quick. Someone who professes to be cool with casual can become less than cool pretty quickly, especially after sex. Guess what I'm saying is that you can do x, y, and z to not mislead someone, but that doesn't create an airtight solution where someone doesn't end up feeling mislead. But so it goes, part and parcel in the world of dating, to be dealt with case by case by just being straightforward.

Wonderful posts by Rose here. I find it telling that you're viewing this from a binary lens, as something either to stomach or something to walk away from. There is a middle ground here, and I can't help but think that you two have moved so quickly that you've yet to set foot in it, together. In a parallel universe, everything you're confronting right now would be part of dating, things to observe, discuss, and allow for some time to equalize, or not. But because you are engaged, and already viewing her in ways as a wife, all this stuff is super pressurized, stirring feelings of betrayal. Ever try to have a meaningful conversation in a loud, crowded room where all the doors are locked? It's not easy. Can you mentally, and emotionally, just put the whole engagement thing on ice and engage as human beings? She knows your feelings and concerns. She also needs some time to untangle herself from all this. Give her that time, see how she uses it, and give yourself a little timeline for hanging out in this gray zone. Three months, say, or six. That will tell you a whole lot about whether she is someone you want to marry or not.

All in all, I think you'd benefit from putting these sorts of exchanges—months of digital chitchat with women you've never met—into a category that has no overlap with dating. It's less confusing that way, keeps the emotional attachment realistic. Think of it this way, to make an analog analogy: Let's say you occasionally ran into someone out and about: at parties, work events, the gym, whatever, as people do. During these run-ins you two chat. When you mention getting together, they kind of hedge, don't say yes, don't say no. Odds are you would not be thinking of this person as someone you're dating, and as months passed your attachment to that idea would decrease rather than increase. This thing you're talking about here? It's the digital version of that, more or less. It's something that has become pretty common in the modern age, understandably. People are hardwired to seek connection, intimacy, attention, validation. Chatting with a stranger can provide a a quick dose of this without the complexity, which for some people, during some stretches of life, is enough. It is to "dating" what watching a Go-Pro video of someone jumping out of a plane is to "skydiving," or what reading a restaurant review is to "eating." Can feel like the same thing, thanks to the wonders of human imagination, but in reality it is not. Not even close. A person who only reads about restaurants instead of eating, after all, will starve. Something I noticed in my own life: When I was just starting to entertain the idea of dating after my last relationship ended, my chats online with women sometimes went long because, in retrospect, I wasn't really ready to date. Once I was? My chats lasted, at most, two days, and if we didn't have plans to meet? I just let them fade out. Happened organically. Guess what I'm trying to point out, in order to help separate these chats with dating, is that people who sincerely want to date are less likely to want to chat and chat. Also something to consider? Humans have proven, for centuries, that when they want to date they will make room for it. Job stuff, kid stuff, money stuff, life stuff: that can all be navigated because, alas, that is the stuff that is eternal. Those who bring it up as a reason not to date are most likely using it as an excuse, either to let someone down easy or because they're not being fully honest with themselves.

I started writing a reply to this when it was posted, then got sidetracked, then decided I had nothing to add, then questioned that decision. That's happened a few times now, clearly, before writing these words. All of which I share because it's basically how I handle texts, texting, and more or less what I expect in return. Not sure if that counts as etiquette, but it seems to be the norm in my orbit, which I'd describe as pan-generational, diverse in marital status, kids vs no kids, time zones. I'm 42, feel somewhere between 17 and 65 depending on the day, have plenty of friends in their 30s, some in their 20s, and a mother in her 70s. Can see how my mom treats texts a bit more like urgent matters that need responding to than I do, but, all in all, it seems a medium where etiquette is determined more in one's social circle than in one's generation. All in all, similar to @mylolita, I think of texts as something you send whenever while being cool with them being responded to whenever. If something is urgent, I expect someone to let me know that and have lived long enough to know that urgent matters don't stay in the shadows long. If they don't, I'll reply when I see fit. As for this part of the discussion—oh, I've thought this plenty. Then again, speaking in broad brushstrokes, we have older generations to thank for things like not allowing women to vote, segregated schools, the creation of and deployment of nuclear weapons, economic systems that enrich few and impoverish many, climate change, and other award winning examples of mentalities and ways of being that have been wildly destructive and are now pretty universally considered embarrassing. And we have younger generations, by and large, to thank for seeing those errors and pushing civilization to be more civilized. Never a straight line, all that, with plenty to bemoan. There's a string in my back that, when pulled, can go on an interminable rant about social media, smartphones, the atrophying of patience, and so on. But I do think the kids, so to speak, always have a lot to say, something worth saying, and something worth listening to. If only (showing my age here) it wasn't so often so thoroughly hash-tagged!

Sorry about all this. Three months after a divorce, regardless of the circumstances, are bound to be an awful period. Doubt that brings much comfort right now, but maybe it can be something that you remind yourself of here and there—that it's okay to feel what you're feeling? At some point, and it's a point you'll reach only when and if you decide it's something you want, I hope you can find a way to approach all this without so much self-punishment. I say that as someone who is highly skilled at taking hold of the whip and giving myself plenty of lashing, and for whom learning (and relearning) the shortcomings of this is one of those forever parts of life. Self-blame, like self-entitlement, veers into narcissism after all, and you don't need me to tell you there are better places to steer the wheel. You got into this relationship young, married young, and, yeah, you messed up a lot. You are not alone in this. To be defined by it—well, that is actually a choice, and I'd say it's not one that will serve you. Given that you've made other choices that didn't serve you, is there any way of seeing this moment as a time to learn new habits? No, I get that's not going to produce instant relief, but at the same time it seems the quest for instant relief has led you down a dark path already. You've mentioned your father, but not your mother. Is she around? Were they married? Were you raised thinking of marriage as something critical to accomplish? Boilerplate questions to answer or ignore as you see fit, but from the outside what I see here is someone (you) who forced a relationship when he wasn't genuinely ready for one, handled that really destructively and hurtfully to others, and built some bad habits in the process. Getting to the root is a key step toward new habits, though I can't quite tell if that's something you sincerely want at this juncture. Where you at there? Between demonization ("My life is miserable") and idealization ("I had everything") is the reality in which we're all actually swimming around. You are, right now, still in the earliest stages of life. There is a lot of time to find that middle ground and grow inside of it.

Sorry about this. If you are feeling suicidal please call a hotline, your therapist, your family. You've made some bad choices, yes, but your life is a valuable one. Not a whole lot can be said to lessen the pain of hitting rock bottom, save for one thing: from here there is only one direction, up, and those who've walked it can tell you it can be pretty profound, even wonderful, though the early days that you're in are brutal. But just as cheating is a choice, so is choosing to walk a different path. From where I sit it sounds like you're veering in the right direction. Coming here: that takes guts. Therapy: more guts. Having wrestled with some seriously bad choices myself, some of which I thought would be my undoing, I think of it a bit like becoming more intimate with your demons, so they lose their power through being better understood. In the wake of that, the experience of life, and inhabiting yourself, can really take on new forms. Can I ask how hold you are? Do you two have children? Is your father still around? Per your marriage, why do you think you made the choice to cheat? Seven years ago you were living as you are right now: without her. I say that only to point out a hard fact, which is that you can live with out her. I get that accepting that might feel next to impossible at the moment, as is accepting who you became in this relationship. But it's in accepting all that that you'll be able to make new, different choices. Wishing you luck. Keep posting if it helps.