do guys find this attractive or intimidating?

[kiwifly]

Well the guy that I was close with and who left came back last weekend and we met up. Our conversation started like it usually did, but by the end we were discussing and debating a certain issue. After, I felt like we were closer, and though it was the most challenging conversation we've had, I felt it was the most satisfying too.

 

It got me thinking, do guys feel the same way when they have discussions like this with girls? Like do they find girls who can challenge them and debate with them attractive or intimidating? I mean, at my college I don't hear much intelligent conversation around me between girls and guys ( but when I do catch the odd one here or there I wonder what it's like from the guy's point of view.

 

Any thoughts?

[trident]

A woman who can hold an intense, intelligent conversation w/o coming off as an arrogant snob is a treasure. Quite hard to come by in my experience.

[ProtestTheHero]

I like it. That's where my comfort zone is. I'm way better in debating than I am in just normal chit chat. It would be a huge turn on for me to know I'm with a girl who can hold her own in a battle of wits as well.

 

But I may or may not be a dork. I haven't confirmed that yet, lol.

[PRSOV]

There has to be several signs before I approach an attractive woman in a public place, unless I have had a few drinks prior.

[Day_Walker]

I dont know of many guys who look for intelligent women and let alone find debating with them to be intriguing. However it is something that I would enjoy but I dont feel that I am the norm. If the guy isnt into your intelligence then you move on and find a guy who appreciates it.

[Daddy Bear]

frustration at being unable to hold an intellectual conversation (or a heart-to-heart on ANY level) was definitely one of the factors influencing my decision to file for divorce. not the primary one, mind you, but it is something that i need and that she could not provide.

[Batya33]

Since men are people and since people are individuals I think it varies by individuals. Some men like a healthy debate in their romantic relationships, others want a quieter more submissive woman, others want something that is a mix.

 

I like a healthy debate but I do not like arguing just for the sake of arguing and I believe in a relationship sometimes it's better "to be close than to be right." Last night I had a long talk with a woman in her 50s who is divorced and remarried. She is very bright. She said her ex-husband's second wife is not bright at all. I asked what her husband thought and she said "he told me that after he was married to me he never wanted to be married to a smart woman again."

 

By contrast, my bf strongly prefers to date women who have at least a graduate degree both because of the intelligence factor but also because of his values when it comes to higher education.

 

There is a stereotype that women who debate are not "feminine" or are "intimdating" or "domineering." What I think - there are ways of speaking and debating that are all of those things - some people just are domineering no matter what they say.

 

As for me, I like a healthy debate and also do not like to intimidate or be domineering. I think one can have a healthy debate without being any of those things. Yesterday a woman friend who had watched me stand up to a woman we had just met ("C") who had said some very presumptuous things to me given that she just met me. I responded to C and put her in her place. My friend who witnessed this exchange said: "I was so impressed with how you kept your tone calm the whole time and how elegantly you said what you needed to say." C now respects me. I did not want to intimidate C but I did want her to know exactly how I felt, why I felt that way and wanted to say it in a calm and concise way. I was so happy to hear that I had been successful at that.

 

Finally I think that if your goal is to "win" the debate or to show your power or superiority over your significant other, that can be seen as negative to a relationship no matter how bright a person you are, and despite gender roles. Rather, the goal should be to be a good listener to the other person's views, to be openminded and learn about the other side, and, if you "win" to win gracefully and graciously.

[New_Horizons]

I find it VERY attractive. It is much more of a turnoff when the girl refuses to discuss something or likes to bury things under the carpet. I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to though. Relationship problems or just neutral issues? Either way, I would like to meet a girl who does not mind being frank about these issues but at the same time she should be polite, tactful, understanding of my feelings and willing to accept disagreement.

[kiwifly]

New_Horizons: Yea when I said issues I meant something you would hear about in the news. He had a different opinion about something than I did and we politely did state our own opinions and we challenged each others questions on the issue.

 

Batya: I agree with what you've said. Our debate was more of just a conversation topic than arguing about something, and I would never have a goal of "winning" a debate. I see debates as something that you can't really win, just learn from. Everyone has their own opinions, it's a way of exploring those.

 

I guess my question just has to do more with friendly debating-style conversations. It's good to hear that some guys out there appreciate a girl who can challenge them in conversation!

[Salucious]

Girls who have strong opinions are very attractive, and unforunately rare I have found. A lot of people (including girls) can be well spoken but will not express their true views on things, usually so they won't make waves or offend someone, putting them in a negative light. In fact I'm tired of girls at my college talking about nothing but drama between their friends or SO, Grey's Anatomy, or how drunk they got the night before. A girl who I can talk to about something interesting for more than 30 mins would make a good impression on me.

[Lily04]

Of course, I think it depends on the guy kiwi. But I found the comment that one poster's bf only looks for girls with graduate educations interesting... personally, I wouldn't look for girls with a grad school diploma just because that's the only mark distinguishing intelligence. I wouldn't care if the guy was a high school teacher, a gym instructor, or whatnot, as long as he was intelligent and following his passion, and we connect that's cool. More often than not, I usually connect with grad students but I wouldn't dismiss someone who wasn't just because he may not be as intelligent. Remember that movie where the janitor played by Matt Damons was really a mathematical genius? Forget what it's called now. But level of education achieved does not always imply true intelligence...and more often than not I've found it can also breed characteristics that may not be so attractive (i.e. many doctors are arrogant and cold, same goes for many academics.)

[sidehop]

It's very attractive & consider healthy aspect in any relationship as long as the conversation does not get intense or lack respect & understanding

[Caterina]

I've dated a few men and most of them seemed to appreciate that I was intelligent (in their eyes) and capable of debating if I wanted to. I've only dated one guy who really didn't like that in a woman, and that was okay. I've been told by men before that I was too argumentative because its difficult for me to ignore and allow people to say things that I think are untrue. Everybody has their preferences when it comes to that sort of thing. I'm personally not attracted to a man who doesn't know how to have a good conversation. I really like it if he can debate, also. If I can't respect the guy's intelligence, there is something about me that makes me also not sexually attracted either.

For me, debate is something that only comes up for clarification or necessity when dealing with the pursuit of truth. Otherwise, you're arguing and that gets me/the other person nowhere.

So for me there is a distinction. Its okay to debate but only if its in good fun or for a greater purpose...not if its unnecessarily psychologically or emotionally hurtful (altho sometimes the realization of truth does cause these painful things to happen...so in those cases there is an exception). To me, being intelligent and capable of objective debate makes you an interesting person.

 

That said, on the aside I agree with Lily04 about intelligence and having a graduate degree. There are plenty of people with degrees who are merely disciplined...but boring. There are plenty of intelligent people who have Bachelor degrees or less.

 

Its really such a sweeping generalization to say that men don't like intellectual debate. Different men like different things. Some men won't like that- but- if you like the way that you are, find someone who will also. Also, all people are informed about certain things, so some men might only like a certain type of intellectual debate. Besides, to me it seems like a part of our culture...there are sexual undertones sometimes when people spar and banter with each other...I mean, look at all the movies where the guy and the girl fight at first in a flirtacious way before hooking up.

[Batya33]

I agree that there are unintelligent educated people and intelligent uneducated people, boring educated people, etc. For me that is irrelevant because it is a question of values. I want to date someone who values higher education enough to have received at least a college degree (I have a graduate degree and it made such a positive difference in my self-esteem, knowledge, ability to help so many people, career success, financial stability as well as many other positive effects). I want to raise children with someone who believe strongly that the children should if at all possible pursue higher education.

 

I also know of examples where higher education was not appropriate for a particular person either because of career goals, extreme financial or family situations, etc. I have friends like that, have had close friends in those situations but when it comes to dating for a potential life partner I strongly prefer that that person have a higher degree because of both values, intelligence, and compatible/common interests.

 

I have never met a man without a college degree where he has been interested in dating me so I actually have never been faced with the actual choice. If I were unattached and a friend wanted me to meet someone who had not gone to college and the reasons why he had not made sense to me, I most likely would agree to meet him and see whether we clicked. That situation has never come up as most of my friends and their friends have at least a college degree (I live in a major city so that is probably why).

 

I do not judge anyone for dating only people with degrees, or those who only date people without degrees, or those who limit themselves in other ways (i.e. they only want to date a football player, a doctor, a teacher, an actor, a carpenter, etc).

 

I most certainly have been called a snob for having my preferences. I know I am not one so I am comfortable with those that feel the need to judge me in htat manner.

[Caterina]

Well, my only point was that intelligence and degrees aren't always connected. As far as valuing higher education, there is nothing wrong with that.

[Batya33]

Oh - I could not agree more, Caterina!

[Caterina]

You're very intelligent, Batya. I like to read your opinions even if I don't always agree with them.

[Sheyda]

I agree that it will depend upon the individual as to whether they find your ability to debate attractive or intimidating. I think it's pretty obvious that if you are able to hold a debate with them in the first place they find it attractive; if they didn't they would've run away before it could officially become a debate.

 

Well, my only point was that intelligence and degrees aren't always connected. As far as valuing higher education, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

I just wanted to say that I agree with this 100%. Intelligence cannot be graded based upon results from standardised tests and essay questions. Just take Einstein for an example; he had awful grades, pretty much failed in school and yet his name is commonly used as a substitute for the word "genius".

[Lily04]

I just wanted to say that I agree with this 100%. Intelligence cannot be graded based upon results from standardised tests and essay questions. Just take Einstein for an example; he had awful grades, pretty much failed in school and yet his name is commonly used as a substitute for the word "genius".

 

I agree 100%... I think standardized testing is a flawed measure of intelligence and I know many psychologists who also agree with me. The reason is because it omits certain areas of intelligence (i.e. creativity/intrapersonal/interpersonal/practical problem-solving skills) that are important measures of intelligence but are entirely (or partially) omitted/neglected in traditional tests. For ex. I have a learning disability so my test scores are all over the place. But if you look at some of my tests you would conclude that I'm below average/average IQ, which isn't true at all. Although I may have significant trouble with rote memory tests, for instance, or spatial skills, I have other incredible skills to compensate, which isn't ideally tested in IQ tests. For example, by the age of 10, I was already writing metaphysical poetry... if you read some of them you might have guessed they were composed by university students.

 

After some of my teachers noted this, I was admitted into a "gifted" or "enhanced" program in middle/high school but just a few grades before I was put into the "slow" classes for "intellectually-challenged" youth. Needless to say, all of these changed somewhat messed up my childhood, and I had a slight identity crisis around grade 8 which was also when I developed an obsessive-compulsive disorder and probably ADD too.

 

I think categorizations are somewhat unnecessary. If you can hold an intellectual conversation with someone -- if you can share certain insights and be inspired by ways of thinking that offer to trancend the norm, and may teach you to look at yourself and others in ways you'd not explore otherwise -- I find that a gift in itself. I don't think we need IQ scores to validate a person's true worth or capabilities and I will always resist it as a way to define my personal intelligence, or that of others. A person's worth to me is proven most by friendship and the ability to gain my trust, above all. If we share a similar view of the world, or if the person is able to strike me in a way that is somewhat unconventional, they may hold my attention. That initial interest is a premise to friendship, and may ultimately lead to a relationship. Such interpersonal dynamics cannot be measured from any multiple-choice methods, or aptitude tests in general. Instead, it lies in the spark of conversation... and you're ultimately the best gauge of that.

[Caterina]

Who was it that said that intelligence is largely determined by location? Deciding what is intelligent is subjective, I agree with that. Although, I think a high score on the IQ test is a good judge of high intelligence, I don't think that a low score is a good judge of poor intelligence.

[Batya33]

And then, of course, there is emotional intelligence. . . . .

[Budman]

depends on the guy.

 

I find the more intelligent (less narcicistic the guy) the more he likes them

 

The less secure the less they like them.

 

I personally love them but at the same time I don't I suppose it just depends on the issue.